A Short Rant About Zero Tolerance

[salmonkiller]

“You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”

― Abraham Lincoln

I enjoyed the read and appreciated the OP's opinion.The best post in this thread and most respectful was Kai Corp's. NeilB kudos for keeping it real!Thank you Bugout for sharing your opinion.The ZT lineup is a good one and i think the diversification is going in a positive direction.My example would be the fact that more choices of steels such as M390 are becoming available as time passes.I feel there is something for almost everyone in the lineup, but nothing is and never will be perfect for everyone.I really like the 0801 that I currently EDC, but I would prefer all silver hardware instead of black.Am I hating ZT?No I am not, and who is anyone to judge my preferences?Is the 0801 perfect?Not to me, but I am very grateful that ZT produced the finest production flipper for the money in my opinion that my hands have ever held.I am happy to even own the 801 as most people I know personally would no shell out upwards of $200 for a knife.It's a very good knife and built to last a lifetime.The Le's will cost more money and most purchasers who step up to the higher end of ZT quite possibly already own ZT and some may feel there is value at the higher price point.I believe ZT turned the corner around the time when the 0560 was released and the materials,design,quality, and value(to me)were taken to another level.Of course my willingness to follow and pony up the money followed.I am happy with the ZT's that I own and carry and that's all that matters.

 

[ksseabrd]

I'm pretty sure it's still OK here in America to have a discussion about what we, the consumer, think a company ought to produce and why--we are, after all, the sole reason for their existence.

We all have our preferences. Some people already have their preferences catered to, others don't. A few used to have their preferences met, but now don't. I think that's worth some conversation and I don't believe that equates to "hating". Seriously, if this meets your bar for hating on something, you've never seen hate.

I understand that some people get their personal identities so entwined with a corporation that they feel anything that isn't praise of their company is somehow a personal attack on them and they feel compelled to counter-attack, like a Yankees fan after someone has expressed a preference for the Braves. I think that's a sad commentary on where we are as a society.

Does ZT suck? No, nor is that what the OP said. He said something very different.

Can ZT do better? Sure. But, so much depends on exactly how we define "better". Better for me might not be better for you. I.e., the guys who love the limited edition knives in exotic steels by high profile designers might be getting their strokes right now, but to provide that, given the fact (not opinion) of finite resources in any firm, the focus has to come off of the more pedestrian "hard use tactical" folders that other people might prefer. I get that. It's not personal in any way, nor is commenting on the current state of play. Were I KAI, I'd be paying attention to what my enthusiasts here have to say and bounce that off my bulk marketing data in hopes of seeing an early trend emerge so I could get in front of it, an increasingly difficult task without a doubt given the lead times linked to play of the seasons in the marketing and selling channels. I know, TL;DR.

Personnally, I don't care what ZT does in the future. I like knives. I collect knives to some minor extent, and I have a passion for high quality gear, including knives. ZT is only one vendor in my universe, and frankly, there are only so many big, heavy folders I can carry around. I'm a user.

Enter the real collector. He's up for all manner of variations on a theme, because to him, it isn't the knife, it's the search, it's the acquisition, it's the collection, it's completeness. I get that sometimes it's about comparing the stats and I'm OK with that, too. I compare the data on various knives, too. That makes sense to me. Collect the stuff you think is cool. What's not to love about that?

So, I'm going to be fine no matter what KAI/ZT decide to do. That said, I like ZT. I like their knives. I have one in my pocket as I'm typing this (0561). And I even have a few of their LE knives because of one reason or another. But, I think it's a bit unfair to classify a constructive opinion (constructive because he offered a plan for improvement) as "hating" simply because it wasn't a typical fan-boy fluff post. I had thought better of this forum. And I am morally certain I will now be invited to leave if I don't like it here. It's all part and parcel of the same phenomenon.

This BF newbie, thinks this is the best post in this thread.

Well said sir.

 

[RamZar]

Since its inception in 2006, Zero Tolerance has aggressively pursued the overbuilt, hard-use and according to their own ZT catalog (page 1) knives that are "built like a tank" or even "a real beast". This by and large meant big, bad, heavy black folders. Only the past few years have they started making something lighter and less black. From the very beginning they have used premium materials, machining, craftsmanship, build quality, design and customer service.

ZT has a perception / identity dilemma in that it wants to diversify while also catering to the "real beast" loyal customer/fan base. It's catering to more designers, limited editions, variations (17 on the 0350 alone) and I think most importantly pursuing new markets with more new models of wider variety. This is evident with the recent 0801, 0600 and two upcoming smaller (3.25" blade) folders: 0770CF and 0566.

Still, the perception persists and even their catalog perpetuates it on the last page:

ZERO TOLERANCE KNIVES

Zero Tolerance builds the kind of premium-quality, professional knives that you can depend on every single day.

The brand made its first appearance in 2006 when Kai USA, the makers of Zero Tolerance, saw a place in the market for a made-in-the-USA line of hard-use knives that would meet the needs of professionals, such as the military, law enforcement, as well as other first responders, including fire fighters and emergency medical personnel.

The initial products were combat knives, but since that time, the line has expanded to include a variety of general-use and premium knives. Although Zero Tolerance knives are larger, heavier knives, many customers won’t have anything else as an everyday carrying knife.

Zero Tolerance incorporates the most advanced materials and technologies in a tool that has been with us from the beginning. And they’re still evolving...​

 

[RamZar]

Personally, up until the past year I also thought of them mostly as a premium builder of 8 ounce bricks (0300 & 0200) [mind you I still like them]! Little by little I've been convinced otherwise. The 0550 did a lot for me and with the 0801, released last month, as a high-value premium flipper, I've been seduced by the dark side which now comes in colors other than black.

I commend ZT in diversifying and expanding to new markets. It's business!

I would like ZT to produce anther big black folder in the spirit of the 0200 & 030x. Even an upgraded versions of each of those. For instance, 030x with no spring assist, lock bar steel insert and may be S35VN. For the 0200 important to keep the cost low so perhaps and upgraded steel from 154CM to CPM-154. Perhaps a Bowie blade shape on it...

I also would like to see a couple of solid 3 inch blade folders. For instance, a Kwaiken.

Semi-finally, I think ZT should start moving away from SpeedSafe. The flipper action on the ZT 0801 and Spyderco Domino are so superb that they have basically made assist technology somewhat obsolete!

Finally, I just love the whole ZT 0777 family. Waiting on the DLC sibling and the triplets will be complete! :thumbup:

 

[TEFL0N_D0N_81]

OP I kinda get what you're saying. Sig Sauer kinda did the same thing, tons of new variations, models and colors etc. it was dizzying. The big difference is that where Sig let quality slip and cheapen the brand I haven't found that with ZT. Sure they have a lot of new offerings, companies have to grow and expand to new markets but they are still putting out outstanding robust, hard working knives. Give one a try, you don't have to give up your 0300, I know I didn't, you might just be pleasantly surprised.

The new Sigs have been as sturdy as the old ones. I'm guessing that you're talking about Exeter slides, MIM parts, non-folded steel, yadda yadda. I've never had any component break or crack on me.. not on the P220 and P226. It's just hogwash.

As for the Sig's explosion of finishes... you got me there.

 

[ceptor781]

The new Sigs have been as sturdy as the old ones. I'm guessing that you're talking about Exeter slides, MIM parts, non-folded steel, yadda yadda. I've never had any component break or crack on me.. not on the P220 and P226. It's just hogwash.

As for the Sig's explosion of finishes... you got me there.

No I'm talking about take down levers failing in various ways, sloppy fit on 1911's, poor machining leaving burrs which then gouge other parts, the paint on flaking finish on CPO's, light strikes on P250 and 290, gritty 18lbs pull on a recent P229, and dropping to one mag to save a few bucks. Overall cheapening the brand.

I had one issue with a 0551 that was taken care of. I see ZT growing and maintaining their established reputation for making strong reliable knives.

 

[JuJu-]

I'm usually up for a hug. Bring it on.



So, you missed the hater comments? Pages 1 & 2.




I agree. I have found ZT to be a very innovative manufacturer and expect to continue patronizing their wares.

Consider yourself electronically hugged.

I did look, and I read back, still not seeing hater/disrespectful comments. Just a few opinions. You haven't seen hateful comments yet if you think those are "haters"!

Good deal, we're on the same page.

As for the O.P. did you see my comment on the second page about the new talented designers (Sinkevich, Rexford)?

 

[TEFL0N_D0N_81]

No I'm talking about take down levers failing in various ways, sloppy fit on 1911's, poor machining leaving burrs which then gouge other parts, the paint on flaking finish on CPO's, light strikes on P250 and 290, gritty 18lbs pull on a recent P229, and dropping to one mag to save a few bucks. Overall cheapening the brand.

I had one issue with a 0551 that was taken care of. I see ZT growing and maintaining their established reputation for making strong reliable knives.

Hmm.. I can't refute with your experiences there. Especially with the non-SA/DA ones. As for mags, I feel the same way too.. but a lot of brands do that now.


As for the OP's comments on composite blades, the S110V on the 0560CBCF has been absolutely fantastic.

 

[Locutus D'Borg]

Re composites, I believe that makers that use ZDP-189 almost always use it as a core, wrapped in a more flexible steel, because it is very hard but brittle. William Henry, one of the first American companies to use it, uses it that way, and I believe Rockstead does as well. I'm not an internet metallurgist, but do own several ZDP bladed knives.

Re ZT, I'm not an owner (I collect smaller knives like small Sebenzas, etc.), but have admired from afar their stylistic coherence and quality. I think of them more as a mid-tech company, a cut above production. A friend of mine, Scurvy092, does collect ZTs and let me handle his babies, and I was highly impressed with the fit and finish. Just too big for my needs (or hands).

 

[Morrow]

Re composites, I believe that makers that use ZDP-189 almost always use it as a core, wrapped in a more flexible steel, because it is very hard but brittle. William Henry, one of the first American companies to use it, uses it that way, and I believe Rockstead does as well. I'm not an internet metallurgist, but do own several ZDP bladed knives.

Re ZT, I'm not an owner (I collect smaller knives like small Sebenzas, etc.), but have admired from afar their stylistic coherence and quality. I think of them more as a mid-tech company, a cut above production. A friend of mine, Scurvy092, does collect ZTs and let me handle his babies, and I was highly impressed with the fit and finish. Just too big for my needs (or hands).

There are many examples from a variety of manufacturers using solid ZDP-189 blades. Rockstead does indeed make ZDP-189 blades clad in VG-10 but they also offer solid ZDP-189 blades.

Are you comparing composite blades with clad blades or assuming they are same thing?

 

[alwayscarryaknife]

Withdrawn, it lightened up

 

[fsatsil]

I maybe in the minority but I'm happy that ZT is coming out with some smaller/lighter knives. I think they will attract more customers by offering more edc freindly knives. I can't wait for the ZT0566!

 

[JuJu-]

I maybe in the minority but I'm happy that ZT is coming out with some smaller/lighter knives. I think they will attract more customers by offering more edc freindly knives. I can't wait for the ZT0566!

Yep, more Koolness from Kai to go around!

 

[Jagrmaister]

Obviously, ZT is following the $$$ signs. If they were selling more of the overbuilt tanks, and less of the "designer" ZT, they'd be building more tanks. The consumer votes with their dollar and the company responds by giving the consumer more of whatever they're buying. Most people aren't carrying 8 oz 300s in their pocket regardless of how cool aesthetically they are. I know, I've had one. A company that can change with their consumer base whilst still standing by why they started in the first place is a company that should be in business a long time.

I'll put it to you this way. I've owned a ZT 301. It was great in fit and finish, and felt like it could withstand just about anything in terms of durability. I sold it because it was too heavy to carry and too expensive to sit in a drawer, and I wouldn't buy another. The rest of their offerings at the time were similar. Nice, but overbuilt, and not offering enough to carry over other brands I'm near and dear. With their newest models that are getting lighter and more everyday friendly, but still maintain that durability/stoutness they're known for, I'm getting more and more intrigued to try another ZT.

 

[KLJTech]

Opinions are going to vary so its impossible for one knife company to make everyone happy all the time. Plus, keep in mind that we're all a little nuts (to say the least) when it comes to our knives...I'd HATE to be in the position of trying to make ALL of us happy. I guess that just comes with the territory when you're an extremely successful knife manufacturer (come to think of it, I guess I would like to be in that position ).

I own more ZT's than another other brand of knife yet some of their offerings don't interest me at all...not a big deal. I certainly love the ZT's that I do own and feel that they manufacturer a few knives that are the best money can buy, at that price point. For instance, two of my favorite users are the 0550 Gen II and 0300, the 0550 Gen II ($160) kicked the Strider SnG ($400) out of my pocket and as much as I love the SnG, I enjoy using the ZT 0550 Gen II more.

I've yet to find another knife with an online price of $210-220 that is as well made, (the amount of machining and attention to detail is fantastic) and as rugged as the 030X series. All of this is simply to say that ZT has done an incredible job, every knife they make isn't going to be your cup of tea but I'm willing to bet that over time they will make several models that you'll love and that will serve you well.

 

[rpttrsn]

IMO any company needs to go in the direction of what is being purchased by the buying public, if they want to stay in business. Trying new designs is crucial to staying in the front of the pack. I have the 0550 and the 0551. Have another on back order so I do like the ZT product. These are both a little large for me as a EDC. I prefer a blade 3.250 to 3.500 in length but not as wide as the 0550. I still want the ZT quality build at a price I can afford. The spyderco Brad Southard is an example of the quality, size and weight in an EDC for me. I think ZT is trying to get to this market as well as keeping their base product.
Just me $.02

 

[Locutus D'Borg]

I guess I thought they were the same thing. I was referring to clad blades. I was not aware that manufacturers were using solid ZDP-189 blades. I haven't come across any yet. But I could guess that if anyone were to make one it would be Rockstead, since ZDP is a Japanese metal.

There are many examples from a variety of manufacturers using solid ZDP-189 blades. Rockstead does indeed make ZDP-189 blades clad in VG-10 but they also offer solid ZDP-189 blades.

Are you comparing composite blades with clad blades or assuming they are same thing?

 

[Bugout Bill]

I maybe in the minority but I'm happy that ZT is coming out with some smaller/lighter knives. I think they will attract more customers by offering more edc freindly knives. I can't wait for the ZT0566!

I like the 0566, but why did they make it assisted?

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

There are so many knives available on the market today, I just can't see wringing my hands about the ones I don't like. Like most here, I have more knives than I will ever need, so wonderous variety is fun to see even if I don't want to buy one.

 

[RamZar]

I like the 0566, but why did they make it assisted?

Like with the 0350 it has the potential of opening up the knife to a wider audience beyond mostly enthusiasts on this forum. Sales of 0350 don't lie. Some have difficulty deploying manual flippers.

Last I heard, for both 0566 and 0770CF, which have assisted SpeedSafe, they were going to try and make it so that you can operate both with assistance or remove the torsion bar and work it as a manual flipper.