A Tinder Discussion (And A Slight Rant...)

[harpoon41]

Mist,
I'm not trying to crash the party and there's nothing more to say. I'm sure you know me from Swack's site.
I agree with your assessment on carrying multiple tinders. Joe Bigley recently wrote that 2/3 rds. of his fire kit is tinder. Ignition is easy, maintaining in cold and wet when you are cold and wet is key.
Great article in the new Field & Stream on firecraft.
As former AF SERE Instructor Byron Kerns says, all about knee high fire in the pouring rain. He also talks of looking up to gather your fire materials but that's for another talk.
Many ways to start a fire, but in the end it all ends up the same way: burning.

 

[Mistwalker]

Mist,
I'm not trying to crash the party and there's nothing more to say. I'm sure you know me from Swack's site.
I agree with your assessment on carrying multiple tinders. Joe Bigley recently wrote that 2/3 rds. of his fire kit is tinder. Ignition is easy, maintaining in cold and wet when you are cold and wet is key.
Great article in the new Field & Stream on firecraft.
As former AF SERE Instructor Byron Kerns says, all about knee high fire in the pouring rain. He also talks of looking up to gather your fire materials but that's for another talk.
Many ways to start a fire, but in the end it all ends up the same way: burning.

hello Harpoon,

Good to see you here. Yep I remember, I always enjoy your posts, you're always out doing something.

One of the things my father taught me that it's always good to have a plan B...and a plan C...and...

Thanks, I'll have to go pick one up.

 

[lambertiana]

The reason I favor fatwood is because it is relatively easy to find where I am usually outdoors, and it works well. If I were in an area where it could not be found, I would use the best material that was locally available. To me, that is the whole point - be familiar with what you have available, and use the best that you can get. Why make things harder than you have to?

 

[Mistwalker]

It's good for things to be harder during training and studies...not so good to make things harder when it's for real.

 

[kgd]

now if you took some rock and used that to first strip some fatwood if it was available and prepare it, then created some sparks (all natural of course) by banging two rocks together...flame!!!! thats the real mc coy...

That's not going to happen unless you happen to have enriched pyrite and flint which is apparently common along the beaches of the U.K. If you bang quarts and other rocks together you get a spark, but that spark is more of the type of energy that static has from your clothing (you know when you take your sweater off at night and see the static sparks). It won't be hot enough to ignite charcloth or tinder fungus like a traditional flint and steel will. Well, at least that what Rick told me. Of, course Rick also said that I'm always wrong. So this is an interesting case of my being wrong means that he's wrong. Could it be????

I can make a friction coal in less than a minute, a firesteel and bic in about 10secs, so to me, there is no big deal either way. Preparation so that you can take a tiny spark and roll with it, is what's key. Tinder is the medium that allows that transition.

Good post Moosez, but I assume on the coal thing you are talking about a well seasoned and pre-made kit. When I start with nothing but my boot laces and a knife and am in an unfamiliar forest (where I don't know where a good tree is already at), it can easily take an hour or more to find decent wood, shape the kit up and trial. My success rate with trial woods isn't always 100%, so I often will forage at least a couple of pieces and of course will collect tinder as I see it. Anyhow, just commenting on the 1 minute mark. Yes, when I use perfectly seasoned basswood or cotton wood and have my bow made, spindle shaped and hearth already notched, then 1 minute is about right. But otherwise, I'm looking at about an hour (foraging + shaping etc).

It's good for things to be harder during training and studies...not so good to make things harder when it's for real.

That pretty much says it all! Good statement Mist.

 

[adaman04]

Survival means cheating (Always cheat, always win-Clint Smith), to do whatever it takes to survive another minute, hour, or day. Whatever it takes, at all costs. No holds barred.

Some of us walk the line between bushin' out and survivalist training, the two are closely related, but in reality, if was to practice survival training in my backyard, I'd be siphoning off gas from the lawnmower and throwin' a fireball to the heavens for warmth. Bushcrafting practice is alot more fun and challenging. Learn the basics, have the skills, but NEVER FEEL CONSTRAINED TO STAY WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF BUSHCRAFTING WHEN YOUR LIFE IS ON THE LINE.

Whew, we all woke up from our turkey naps full of piss and vinegar, didn't we:thumbup:

Moose

Well said, sir. With a Clint Smith quote I like you more all the time.

I am newer to the bushcraft thing than a lot of guys and in fact I'm just transitioning over to that side from the just plain "survival skills" den. Primitive skills and bushcraft skills are something I'm interested in getting better at and I just enjoy it overall. With that said, I'm not going into the woods without my RAT fire kit with PJ cotton balls in the capsule. I choose to keep that piece of kit with me. Now, I may leave it in my pocket while I try a bowdrill setup, but the idea that the use of anything is "cheating" the philosophy or cheating yourself is a to each their own kind of thing.

I'm not a full on woods bum, my other part of my life is shooting, firearms and primarily the defensive use of firearms and self-defense. In survival, whether it be a woodland application or in a parking garage in the middle of the night against an unsavory character, there are no rules. I will do everything in my power and employ EVERY tool I have at my disposal to see the next day. Master the tools you usually have, but don't limit yourself to them. Train for the unexpected, train for gear failures, but most of all, JUST TRAIN!

 

[Mistwalker]

That's not going to happen unless you happen to have enriched pyrite and flint which is apparently common along the beaches of the U.K. If you bang quarts and other rocks together you get a spark, but that spark is more of the type of energy that static has from your clothing (you know when you take your sweater off at night and see the static sparks). It won't be hot enough to ignite charcloth or tinder fungus like a traditional flint and steel will. Well, at least that what Rick told me. Of, course Rick also said that I'm always wrong. So this is an interesting case of my being wrong means that he's wrong. Could it be????

Good post Moosez, but I assume on the coal thing you are talking about a well seasoned and pre-made kit. When I start with nothing but my boot laces and a knife and am in an unfamiliar forest (where I don't know where a good tree is already at), it can easily take an hour or more to find decent wood, shape the kit up and trial. My success rate with trial woods isn't always 100%, so I often will forage at least a couple of pieces and of course will collect tinder as I see it. Anyhow, just commenting on the 1 minute mark. Yes, when I use perfectly seasoned basswood or cotton wood and have my bow made, spindle shaped and hearth already notched, then 1 minute is about right. But otherwise, I'm looking at about an hour (foraging + shaping etc).

That pretty much says it all! Good statement Mist.

I don't think there is any worry of Rick accusing you of being wrong as long as you are quoting him

I have never even bothered to time myself on the friction fire making, no reason to yet I'm not to that stage yet. Right now I'm still studying and focusing on getting it right. However I'd say unless I'm somewhere that Yucca is common it's easily an hour.

Thanks Ken. Now, I am well aware that I will be having to say on the next outing when I have them set up for a one-match fire that fatwood is off the table as long as it is dry, but I will also be doing a one-match fire with them under very wet conditions and spark based under very wet conditions before all is said and done also. I know they practice everything I show them because I get phone calls about it. Even if they practice more with fatwood when they are on their own more than I would prefer, I won't condemn anything that gets them outside rather than in front of a television playing video games.

Well said, sir. With a Clint Smith quote I like you more all the time.

I am newer to the bushcraft thing than a lot of guys and in fact I'm just transitioning over to that side from the just plain "survival skills" den. Primitive skills and bushcraft skills are something I'm interested in getting better at and I just enjoy it overall. With that said, I'm not going into the woods without my RAT fire kit with PJ cotton balls in the capsule. I choose to keep that piece of kit with me. Now, I may leave it in my pocket while I try a bowdrill setup, but the idea that the use of anything is "cheating" the philosophy or cheating yourself is a to each their own kind of thing.

I'm not a full on woods bum, my other part of my life is shooting, firearms and primarily the defensive use of firearms and self-defense. In survival, whether it be a woodland application or in a parking garage in the middle of the night against an unsavory character, there are no rules. I will do everything in my power and employ EVERY tool I have at my disposal to see the next day. Master the tools you usually have, but don't limit yourself to them. Train for the unexpected, train for gear failures, but most of all, JUST TRAIN!

I like practicing the "Art of keeping my ass alive"

 

[tonym]

Good post Moosez, but I assume on the coal thing you are talking about a well seasoned and pre-made kit. When I start with nothing but my boot laces and a knife and am in an unfamiliar forest (where I don't know where a good tree is already at), it can easily take an hour or more to find decent wood, shape the kit up and trial. My success rate with trial woods isn't always 100%, so I often will forage at least a couple of pieces and of course will collect tinder as I see it. Anyhow, just commenting on the 1 minute mark. Yes, when I use perfectly seasoned basswood or cotton wood and have my bow made, spindle shaped and hearth already notched, then 1 minute is about right. But otherwise, I'm looking at about an hour (foraging + shaping etc).
.

Ken, you obviously don't know Moosez. If you were a piece of wood staring at the below pic, you would split and combust in less than a minute as well!

 

[kgd]

Ken, you obviously don't know Moosez. If you were a piece of wood staring at the below pic, you would split and combust in less than a minute as well!

I'm told those "funny" cigarettes give you that kind of power

 

[tonym]

Hmm, the more I look at this pic

The more I think Moosez may just be a heavier slightly less attractive version of me..

 

[kgd]

Tony, when I look at the juxtaposition of those two photos, it is evident that you are both good looking. Moose is going for the EMO look and you are clearly going after the tickle-me-Elmo look. I'm sure they are both great strategies with the womanz....

 

[Moosez45]

Good post Moosez, but I assume on the coal thing you are talking about a well seasoned and pre-made kit. When I start with nothing but my boot laces and a knife and am in an unfamiliar forest (where I don't know where a good tree is already at), it can easily take an hour or more to find decent wood, shape the kit up and trial. My success rate with trial woods isn't always 100%, so I often will forage at least a couple of pieces and of course will collect tinder as I see it. Anyhow, just commenting on the 1 minute mark. Yes, when I use perfectly seasoned basswood or cotton wood and have my bow made, spindle shaped and hearth already notched, then 1 minute is about right. But otherwise, I'm looking at about an hour (foraging + shaping etc).

Yeah, it was, or really, I consider my time spent foraging for a bowdrill kit in with my prep work of my wood. I try to use everything, even the shaving from finishing my bowdrill. I guess from the time I bore a staring divot, and start my burn in, it takes me less than a minute to get a good coal going. What I was talking about was the "spark" or ignition of our tinder. You can use a Bic and still fail to get a fire, I'm living proof it can happen.

I think we focus and fixate on 2 areas of fire building, the spark an the tinder. Both need to be discussed, and explored, but I always spend more effort and energy on preparing my wood, so once I get that tinder going, I don't have to worry that it will not bear firey fruit, so to speak.

On my new cedar kit, I'm pretty quick to get a coal. It has been seasoning in the back of my car for over 2 months, and is finally perfect. I got some willow curing in there now, and I will be cutting boards and spindles from it within a month. I plan on doing a giveaway of the kits, to folks that are haveing trouble getting their BD kits kickin'.

Hmm, the more I look at this pic

The more I think Moosez may just be a heavier slightly less attractive version of me..

Slightly less attractive? Better put your "readers" on, 'ol man, I am so much prettier than you. I do like your hat though.

Split wood and combust on sight? You got me confused with PFR, I still get it the old fashioned way.

Moose

 

[tonym]

Tony, when I look at the juxtaposition of those two photos, it is evident that you are both good looking. Moose is going for the EMO look and you are clearly going after the tickle-me-Elmo look. I'm sure they are both great strategies with the womanz....

:thumbup:

On my new cedar kit, I'm pretty quick to get a coal. It has been seasoning in the back of my car for over 2 months, and is finally perfect. Moose

I bet you would be suprized just how many woods you can get a coal from with out seasoning it. Next time you happen apon a dead standing tree give it ago.

Slightly less attractive? Better put your "readers" on, 'ol man, I am so much prettier than you. I do like your hat though.
Moose

I am suprized you didn't come back with a height joke. You could have nailed me with a few good short jokes, but thinking you are as handsome as I is just plain silly

Split wood and combust on sight? You got me confused with PFR, I still get it the old fashioned way.

Moose

shhh. it may come back...

 

[Moosez45]

:thumbup:



I bet you would be suprized just how many woods you can get a coal from with out seasoning it. Next time you happen apon a dead standing tree give it ago.




I am suprized you didn't come back with a height joke. You could have nailed me with a few good short jokes, but thinking you are as handsome as I is just plain silly




shhh. it may come back...

I practice on limbs that fall out of the maple trees in the yard. I will give it a go next time I'm out, which should be next weekend, hopefully.

Short jokes? They're beneath me

OOPS!! Almost forgot, LOL

Moose