A Tinder Discussion (And A Slight Rant...)

[adaman04]

Not very woodsy of me, but I bought (2) 4 lb bags of fatwood sticks at Menards for $5 per bag. Half a lifetime worth.

Nice pics as always Mist. Love me some 3MIL too.

 

[Falcor]

Mist - once again an enjoyable post, thank you for sharing and of course for the usual great photos.
So what if you felt challenged, its through meeting and overcoming our challenges is how we grow.

 

[TheUSMC2017]

What knife is that?

 

[Moosez45]

What knife is that?

The ESEE 3 MIL. Great knife, great warranty. Careful though, you can't just buy one ESEE.

Moose

 

[hiwa]

Great post Mist. There certainly is no cheating using fatwood or anything else. When I'm freezing my butt off about to go hypo , or just trying to get something warm in me for energy , there's nobody judging me " out there." The only thing I'm cheating is death. Use what ya gotta use to get the job done. If that means lighting my wife's panties on fire ( removed of course) , so be it Whatever it takes. You get my point.

 

[mtnfolk mike]

wow.. great post and pics Brian..:thumbup:

though i usually always carry some other form of tinder.. it is definitely good to know and be familiar with natural tinders, in your area's.. we have a lot different materials here, fatwood included..

 

[Bushman5]

fatwood in a 35 - 40 KM/hour wind, lit with a ferro rod and a tiny bit if cotton ball

click to play video


about 5 minutes later

click to play video

nuff said.

 

[Mistwalker]

Well well, go away for a while to do some work and the thread takes on a life of its own. Thanks for all the responses guys and for getting into the discussion...as well as all the kind words.

Mist, I would bet any amount of $$$ you were a school teacher in your previous life. Good beginnings, stay on subject thru middle of lecture, close with a solid conclusion but is still open for discussion. No doubt in my mind you were. I really don't consider what you said as a rant, but I have a different take on it. Your post reminds me of something my dad use to tell me growing up when I would get angry over something or someone . . . " Tact is the ability to step on another man's shoes without messing up the shine " . . .You Mist, are a very "tactful" person . . .
Great shots as usual, thanks for the information.
Be safe.

Thanks man, I'm glad you enjoyed the post.

Maybe so...I know I enjoy teaching now.

LOL awesome post. Myself I like to try all sorta stuff to make fire. Most of the time its what works the fastest at the time. Even after I get my fire going I will still start others using other stuff just for fun.

Thanks bro, glad you enjoyed it and got a laugh too!

I like to play around with different things to.

Terrific post. Bookmarked it so I can pass it along to newbies.

Fatwood is a great resource. I prefer PJCBs for everyday fire-starting, but it's hard to argue with a nice bit of flammable, resinous wood.

Best,

- Mike

Thanks Mike, I am glad you liked the post. When things are really wet and I want a fire fast I'll often just use chemical tinders...but that's not much fun for a knife nut

"C'mon , Mist. Don't be coy. You made your post because you got definsive about your using fatwood so much. So in making your defense, which I think was unnecessary, you set out to challenge those of us who don't use fatwood. So yeah, I got defensive, too.
You didn't use the words elitist or superior but you definitely inferred it in your post. It's obvious so there's no need to deny it."

Wow, I think you are seeing things between the lines that aren't there from my perspective. Having posted many threads on fire crafting that had absolutely nothing at all to do with fatwood, using seed pods, seed tufts, wood shavings, barks, punk wood, leaves, moss, trioxane, wet fire, bits of plastic, friction fires....etc. I'm not hung up on any one ignition source, on any one type of tinder, nor any one type of fuel, I study them all. I don't see a need to defend myself from anyone for any reason at all...or at least I didn't.

This post wasn't about defending anything, it was about expressing an opinion on closed minds and bad teachings. I did not set out to challenge those of you who do not use fatwood, there you go again trying to put words in my mouth. The only challenge offered was in the form of an invitation to anyone who wanted to label me as less skilled because of my willingness to use fatwood under conditions where it will work much faster than any other organic tinder because either way it will be a win / win situation. Either I will teach something or I will learn something. I enjoy both and if someone has a better way that uses less energy I'm all for learning it. I know well the meanings of the words superior and elitist and I am not afraid to use them if those are the thoughts I want to express. I don't feel I am superior to anyone else in the world, only narrow minded people develop superiority complexes. However I am well aware that I am more experienced at survival techniques both urban and wilderness...orthodox and unorthodox... than a lot of people here, and I do my best to share that knowledge as well as I can because I thought that was what this forum was about.

"Of course you can get fire faster with fatwood than without in that kind of environment. Who the heck couldn't? And anybody who wouldn't use it if they had to would be a fool in my opinion."

Anyone who hasn't bothered to learn to identify the material because they were taught that it was a sign of lesser skill and has devoted all of their learning to other materials.

If that is your thought on the matter then you are obviously not one of those I was referring to in the opening or ending paragraphs. So...what exactly is your perceived provocation for making this personal?

"Do you know of anyone who'd actually refuse to use it if they were in a desperate situation and needed it? I don't."

I have a lot more to do with my time than to waste it writing down or bookmarking every negative post I have ever read on the subject, but between here and five other forums I have read several posts by people who were rather judgmental in the expression of their opinions. I do personally know one young man who, until I gave him a quick lesson in it's value, refused to even consider learning about it because of the words of someone whom I can at this point only assume was asinine enough to express his thoughts without any qualifiers as to the situation and circumstances. That one young man was all the inspiration I needed for this post because if there is one then there are others. The positive responses and thank yous I have received in this thread, another thread, in PMs, and emails was more than enough to confirm that it was indeed worth the time and effort, and even this unnecessary argument.

"So it seems to me you set up a straw man to knock him down to defend yourself against attacks on your skills.
I don't think that neceassry, if you have a good time in the woods then who cares what others think?"

There you go again. What attacks? Actually this is the first attack I am aware of being under here in the last two years. I am starting to wonder if there is some friction between us that I wasn't aware of.

"That's what it's all about right? Having fun?
It is for me, maybe that's why I don't understand so many of these conversations.
Iz"

While I do hope they have fun in the process of learning...when I am teaching I don't teach people how to have fun, I teach them how to stay alive under various circumstances. The outing with the neighborhood kids was fun for me yes, but not about teaching them to have fun I figure they can do that all on their own, they are kids after all. It became less fun after the boys statement and became a very serious discussion very quickly. I don't have any issues at all with anyone pushing people to try different things and challenging them, open minds are a good things. I just have issues with people who have skills, or at least present the image that they do, who express opinions that inhibit the learning process and close minds rather than opening them further.

Mistwalker, I understand teaching and useing area specific tinders. I will say this. I think useing natural tinders gathered in your area is survival skill not really a bushcraft skill. A proper woodsman always has a good fire kit stocked and ready to go. Just like you stated. I love useing natural materials for shelters as well, but I always have a tarp with me. I have lived and taught in several parts of the country. When I am in an area that has pitchwood I use it. It is a very fast and easy fire. I almost always carry it with me.

If you are teaching survival skills that will work in any area, splitting wood to get to the dry inside is the best method. Once you get to that dry wood, scrapings or fine shavings will ignite with a firesteel. This, like anything takes practice.

In my humble opinion useing pitchwood all of the time makes it easy to skip stages of your prep. Skipping stages when you don't have an excellent tinder,like pitchwood, can lead to failure. I think you are a competent woodsman. I know you can start a fire with a tinder other than pitchwood. Some people can not, those are the ones that need to be taught that prior proper preparation prevent piss poor performance.

Very well stated. I don't intend to have the guys dependant on any one thought. I had taught them how to lay a fire, how to gather their kindling, and how to use various tinders to get fire on previous outings, and there will be other trips out for other lessons. I had time that one day to make a good point under the right conditions. The whole point of the wet conditions exercise was to let them experiment and experience some frustration before making them aware that a natural accelerant was right there the whole time. They live here, these are the woods they roam, and the cold wet season is upon us. I would have felt irresponsible not to have done so.

I enjoyed reading this post, Brian. I like the pics too.

Great that you were teaching some woodcraft skills to some young woodsmen in training.

Horace Kephart, wrote
" In the school of the woods there is no graduation day. "

Learning woodcraft is for as long as you live and practice and study it for as long as we live. We learn until we die.

Learning as many ways to start a fire is just adding to your woodcraft skills.

wow, it is to bad that some woodsmen think using this or that to start a fire is cheating. the point is to get a fire going.


Bryan

Thanks for the support Bryan, I am glad you enjoyed the post. One of the boys fell in love with the Sojourner, I may have to have you make one for him once you get a shop set back up.

I find MW threads great & enjoy the pics....
To me, it's did you get fire ? Yes ... Cool
whether firesteel and natural tinder or not a fire is a fire .....IF I struggle.... I'll pull my Bic or Zippo out with the quickness....

Thanks bro, I'm glad you enjoy the posts.

Still feeling the long-term effects of cold weather injuries to my feet nearly thirty years ago I know what you mean.

The one thing that's keeping me from vomiting over all this fatwood talk and Ken's postings is that you guys are seeing the need for learning firemaking from the ground up. Whether you carry a bic or ahem... a blowtorch:thumbup:, knowing those core principles can help you troubleshoot when things aren't working.


Rick

Cool, glad you're able to tolerate the discussion at least.

Thanks for the pics. They are a good reference of things to keep my eyes open for.

You're quite welcome. That was the exact reason for posting them.

Not very woodsy of me, but I bought (2) 4 lb bags of fatwood sticks at Menards for $5 per bag. Half a lifetime worth.

Nice pics as always Mist. Love me some 3MIL too.

Thanks Adam. No worries bro carrying trioxane, magnesium, and bic lighters isn't exactly woodsy either but I carry all three at times.

Mist - once again an enjoyable post, thank you for sharing and of course for the usual great photos.
So what if you felt challenged, its through meeting and overcoming our challenges is how we grow.

Thanks Falcor, glad you enjoyed the post.

Great post Mist. There certainly is no cheating using fatwood or anything else. When I'm freezing my butt off about to go hypo , or just trying to get something warm in me for energy , there's nobody judging me " out there." The only thing I'm cheating is death. Use what ya gotta use to get the job done. If that means lighting my wife's panties on fire ( removed of course) , so be it Whatever it takes. You get my point.

Thanks man, glad you liked the post. I feel the same way.

How did I know you were a Rat Pack member from your post before I even saw it in your location...

wow.. great post and pics Brian..:thumbup:

though i usually always carry some other form of tinder.. it is definitely good to know and be familiar with natural tinders, in your area's.. we have a lot different materials here, fatwood included..

Thank Mike, glad you liked the thread. I almost always carry some other forms of tinder.

fatwood in a 35 - 40 KM/hour wind, lit with a ferro rod and a tiny bit if cotton ball

click to play video


about 5 minutes later

click to play video

nuff said.

This is one of the reasons I teach my students about it for signal fires. Laid properly the fire will spread and grow very rapidly and the sucking of air through it will cause the fire to be very big and very bright in a very short amount of time.

 

[Ron Athay]

For practice use anything you want, any rules. For survival use what ever you can find. I was on an outting with a group of SAR men who were practicing starting fire in the rain. They used FATWOOD, pitch, old man's beard, grass, all kinds of stuff. I asked the head guy what he favored in a real emergency situation. He reached in his pack and pulled out three road flairs. Always caries them. He started a fire in January in a rain forest to heat +/_10 rafters that had overturned in an ice jam. Big fire in three minutes. None of them called him a cheater. In a real emergency any thing goes.

 

[Ron Athay]

Mistwalker,
I loved your original posts and pictures. Very informative. Thanks

 

[pitdog]

There are other tinders besides fatwood ???



Some people on here comment that all I do is walk my dogs and shouldn't really post on a survival forum but nearly evertime I walk my dogs I paractice certain skills and one of those is firemaking. Now take into account how many times I post my walks and you start to get some idea about how much fire making practice I do !!!!
As Mistwalker rightly said. many people don't comprehend just how wet the west coast actually is........every thing is soaked through to the core, every stick ya pick up breaks in two as ya lift it from the floor ! The minute ya start to make tinder it is soaked in rain unless ya make or find cover and then there is the humidity !
I laugh when people on here quote different tinders saying how good they are, birds nest ( sorry Mistwalker ), Old man beard....Pffft they are shi*e when used on really bad days. The only tinders you can truly rely on where I am is Fatwood and tree resin. I can mix the resin in with other average tinders such as old mans beard etc and get fire.
So I guess I'm a cheat and I hope one day those that accuse me of being a cheat will take a wander over here so I can laugh at their attempts to show me how they do it !

Great post buddy !:thumbup:

 

[Mistwalker]

Great Post! I can't wait to get out and try it for myself.

People who don't have fatwood in their area just don't get it. Its not a rarity, or lucky find its everywhere! Use whats around, whats natural, and its not a crutch.

Personally don't understand the point of man-made tinders people love to carry (why not bring a bic) but to each his own.

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the post.

While I always have at least one bic on me in the woods, and they are great tools under great conditions... they are also relatively unreliable tools. Carried in pockets the buttons can be depressed and allow all the fuel to leak, the little arms that hole the wheel can melt when used for long periods with damp wood and they can break for various reasons sending the wheel and the flint flying, they take a while to dry after submersion, and they don't work well under very cold temps and high elevations.

 

[Mistwalker]

Mistwalker,
I loved your original posts and pictures. Very informative. Thanks

Thank you, I am glad you carried something useful away from the post.

There are other tinders besides fatwood ???

Some people on here comment that all I do is walk my dogs and shouldn't really post on a survival forum but nearly evertime I walk my dogs I paractice certain skills and one of those is firemaking. Now take into account how many times I post my walks and you start to get some idea about how much fire making practice I do !!!!
As Mistwalker rightly said. many people don't comprehend just how wet the west coast actually is........every thing is soaked through to the core, every stick ya pick up breaks in two as ya lift it from the floor ! The minute ya start to make tinder it is soaked in rain unless ya make or find cover and then there is the humidity !
I laugh when people on here quote different tinders saying how good they are, birds nest ( sorry Mistwalker ), Old man beard....Pffft they are shi*e when used on really bad days. The only tinders you can truly rely on where I am is Fatwood and tree resin. I can mix the resin in with other average tinders such as old mans beard etc and get fire.
So I guess I'm a cheat and I hope one day those that accuse me of being a cheat will take a wander over here so I can laugh at their attempts to show me how they do it !

Great post buddy !:thumbup:

Thanks bro, always good having another rain-forester chime in on the wet and soggy nature of the environment.

 

[pitdog]

Just for something to think about, the worst weather day I have ever had was when I took the following pics. It was freezing cold, snowing and I headed down to the coast where there was gale force winds blowing in from the sea. I had somehow lost one glove and figured it would be a test of my skills to head along the beach a little and make a fire.
Within a very short time I was starting to lose dexterity in my hands and knew I had to make a fire fast. I started with the ferro-rod and fatwood...failed, I then went to PJB balls....failed, next was storm proof matches and I actually lost the dexterity to strike these after about my 3rd attempt, next was the Bic, how hard can it be eh ? Failure yet again...by this time I was starting to panic as pain was really setting in on my fingers which I could hardly move, after trying everything I went to my last resort which was some of the Zip brand BBQ type fire starters ( Giant match type things ), finally these worked ( They have a burn time of at least 6 minutes even in heavy wind and rain ).
This was one tough wake up call when it came to fire starting. I had to warm my fingers by the fire for about 5 minutes before I could work my camera and take the pics !

By pitdog2010 at 2010-11-25

By pitdog2010 at 2010-11-25

 

[fmajor007]

Elitism sucks and is for the weak.

Failure to truly understand and have mastery with a particular skill set usually leads to this sad, prideful condition - and as we read in the Bible - pride comes before a fall.

 

[beanbag]

Mistwalker-

I just saw this and I'm pretty sure your talking about my "22 tinders" thread over on BCUSA.

When I have disdain for something, I don't veil it, thinly or otherwise.

When I was out in the woods this November I tried to come up with 20+ different types of tinder for Rescue Riley's Skills challenge. The top of my list was in fact FATWOOD. Everything else was just an afterthought. Where I live I should have no issues finding and harvesting fatwood. But you know what? I've been trying unsuccessfully since I heard about it on these forums, and it's frustrating the hell out of me.

If you were reading a disdain of fatwood into my post, it just ain't so. I quite envious of all your fatwwod posts. I think if I could harvest some, I'd love the stuff. I just can't bring myself to go to the Home Depot and buy it.

The truth is for me "I've 22 tinders and Fatwood ain't one." was more a rhyme of unrequited lust for the stuff, rather than disdain.

 

[kgd]

Elitism sucks and is for the weak.

Ha, I pride myself on being an Elitist....But then again, what else am I going to do staring out of my ivory tower and such

Good post Pitdog. That reminds me about a little 'goto fire' bundle I made after seeing your post and carried in the winter months. It consists of a set of coghlan firesticks (4-5), some REI-stormproof matches which are thicker and easier to hold without breaking and a hand-santizer bottle of firegel. I keep it in a thick ziplock. The idea is to spread the gel on the fire sticks and light it with the stormproof matches. The coglan sticks on their own will burn for a little bit, at least to get your hands warm and should be able to start less than desirable fuel burning.

 

[Briarbrow]

Mistwalker those are some nice pictures. I was especially surprised by the drop with the reflection~pretty cool.

I am a bit green on this forum life, and exactly how to navigate through its pitfalls. Sometimes I just can't help throwing a little jab, a yay for my team, my way, my choice. It's an ego thing; so many egos flailing around looking for a little pat on the back-someone to say "hey your right.

I know I don't mean anything by it- perhaps the fatwood haters you refer to are the same. Expressing an Ideal, a goal. But when flame is not produced by force of will alone, they soon adopt whatever works asap.
In some regard I feel I can understand where they are coming from. > when it is,or if it becomes a bit contrived. Relying too much on 1 method

I have felt that way about my ferrorod for a few minutes. Just another high tech gadget thing, maybe too easy, not native enough... then the rabbit hole became obvious. I like hitech if it makes me look like I carry hardly a thing

One's kit is very personal. We have a lot of our identity, self image tied up in it. some like the military style, others the mod backpacker, the primitive, etc. each projects an image and says a lot about the user imho. (to a certain extent)

It's possible there are times when: whatever works for you: is just a brush off- like saying I have better things to do than convince you your choice is ridiculous. I guess it's just a good way to let each person decide for themselves. Which I think may be the best lesson your youths may have taken with them. Think for yourself, try it before adopting a given pov just because it is a safe opinion held by Expert A, and by agreeing I cant be wrong.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Some people on here comment that all I do is walk my dogs and shouldn't really post on a survival forum...

Pit you are one of the highest contributing members on this subforum. You post knives in actual USE, and a $#iTload of bushcrafty stuff. Your 4-legged assistants only add to your posts... Someone still buggin you? If anyone needs killin', you let me know brutha... I ain't kilt me a man in two whole weeks.:grumpy:


... and now, back to fatwood.


Rick

 

[revolverman357]

I always have fatwood in my tinder kit. I like to practice with other methods so I don't become reliant on the fatwood. It is there if needed when the most important thing is to get fire fast. If my fatwood is lost, I know what I can use in my area.

As far as fatwood being for the unskilled, I have a buddy who cant light a fatwood fire to save his A$$- yet, he is practicing and am sure he will have it down in no time, but it does take a little bit of skill to use the ferro rod without sending your tinder flying about.