A2 Steel Update

Chris_Texas said:
I am most interested in seeing the MSRP.
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That’s possibly one redeeming value of this whole thing. If they can offer it for cheap, the knives can act as semi-disposable beater knives. As long as you’re aware of the limits of 4034, you shouldn’t break ‘em.

But goodness, just writing that pains me. It’s the bloody Trailmaster we’re talking about. The knife that’s supposed to eat punishment and ask for seconds.
 
Man with no name said:
Until your post there was next to no mention of the Laredo or Natchez Bowies. Six knife models will be impacted by this new change in steel:
Recon Scout
Trail Master
Laredo Bowie
Natchez Bowie
Gurkha Kukri
Gurkha Kukri Plus
I'm not sure what factors went into the choice to change from O-1 to A-2 steel, but I can only imagine the lost sales over the last 2 years as inventory of the last batch of O-1 knives sold out while Cold Steel ran their tests on the potential A-2 knives that never made the grade? 4034 appears to not be an acceptable solution, at least as far as Bladeforums members are concerned. 52100 would be a viable option as well as returning to O-1. Hell even suspending production of these classic Cold Steel knives until a suitable steel can be adopted would be better than producing knives in a steel that nobody is interested in buying!
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Ah yes, good ole 52100. That steel would’ve been perfect for a mid-tier option, with 3V as the upper-tier option. As of right now then, the Drop Forged Survivalist is a better Trailmaster than the Trailmaster.
 
Mark Spark said:
To see for myself, I picked up an Outdoorsman Lite in 4034 at my local Turner's for $30. This one was fairly sharp and had an even edge very close to 20 dps except near the tip. Thickness is about 0.035" behind the edge. Stock is 0.156". The pommel and guard are some kind of hard plastic instead of steel, but the full tang is exposed and the Kraton handle is grippy and comfortable.
Because it was already at 20 dps, it was easy to put a edge on it with a Sharpmaker. My first surprise is I was able to get it to push cut computer paper at right angles. This is very sharp indeed. I've never gotten a cheap kitchen knife this sharp. It feels smooth and sticky like AUS8, not toothy like S30V. Next I wittled Douglas fir with it and checked the edge holding. After about 50 chips it struggles to push cut. But so do any of my other knives.
Next I tried a little chopping. It's too small and light for good chopping, but it didn't chip. Still slicing paper nicely but not push cutting.
I need to do more testing. Right now I am very confused. In a blind test I would never identify it as a liner steel. I would see it is a low carbide steel, but not necessarily a bad steel. I seriously doubt this has the ingredients listed for Krupp 4034. According to them, 4034 is a medium carbon stainless with nothing else except 1% Mn. There's no listing for Japanese 4034. BTW, it didn't feel particularly soft against a diamond sharpener. I don't get it.
Separately, the Outdoorsman Lite is a fantastic knife for $20-30. The knife itself is beautiful in design and function. The sheath is a cheap hard plastic molding, but its a perfect protector for tossing in a toolbox or trunk.
I'm going to get bombed for this I know, but right now I would gladly buy any classic knife in this 4034 if the price was right. I'd prefer the upscale handles and sheath because there's so much price room if pricing is like the Outdoorsman.
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:) Heck yeah ! :cool::thumbsup:

I want to believe in miracles , but the forces involved at the sweet spot of a Natchez Bowie or a Gurkha Kukri chopping up some seasoned hardwood is going to be much more brutal . :eek::poop:

( Not to mention the sheet metal and maybe even concrete blocks , and only God knows what ,destructive test type guys will use these on . :rolleyes:)

Not sure the Outdoorsman Lite is an adequate testbed for bigger / heavier choppers . :confused:
 
Mark Spark said:
To see for myself, I picked up an Outdoorsman Lite in 4034 at my local Turner's for $30. This one was fairly sharp and had an even edge very close to 20 dps except near the tip. Thickness is about 0.035" behind the edge. Stock is 0.156". The pommel and guard are some kind of hard plastic instead of steel, but the full tang is exposed and the Kraton handle is grippy and comfortable.
Because it was already at 20 dps, it was easy to put a edge on it with a Sharpmaker. My first surprise is I was able to get it to push cut computer paper at right angles. This is very sharp indeed. I've never gotten a cheap kitchen knife this sharp. It feels smooth and sticky like AUS8, not toothy like S30V. Next I wittled Douglas fir with it and checked the edge holding. After about 50 chips it struggles to push cut. But so do any of my other knives.
Next I tried a little chopping. It's too small and light for good chopping, but it didn't chip. Still slicing paper nicely but not push cutting.
I need to do more testing. Right now I am very confused. In a blind test I would never identify it as a liner steel. I would see it is a low carbide steel, but not necessarily a bad steel. I seriously doubt this has the ingredients listed for Krupp 4034. According to them, 4034 is a medium carbon stainless with nothing else except 1% Mn. There's no listing for Japanese 4034. BTW, it didn't feel particularly soft against a diamond sharpener. I don't get it.
Separately, the Outdoorsman Lite is a fantastic knife for $20-30. The knife itself is beautiful in design and function. The sheath is a cheap hard plastic molding, but its a perfect protector for tossing in a toolbox or trunk.
I'm going to get bombed for this I know, but right now I would gladly buy any classic knife in this 4034 if the price was right. I'd prefer the upscale handles and sheath because there's so much price room if pricing is like the Outdoorsman.
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4034 is not liner steel.
It gets parroted around the forum so much most begin to believe it.

This steel is very similar to 420hc which Buck has no problem using on their flagship model the 110.

I have a Kiridashi in 4034 that I have used for a few months and I am impressed for it being such junk steel.
 
willc said:
4034 is not liner steel.
It gets parroted around the forum so much most begin to believe it.

This steel is very similar to 420hc which Buck has no problem using on their flagship model the 110.

I have a Kiridashi in 4034 that I have used for a few months and I am impressed for it being such junk steel.
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Actually, the chemistry is more like 420J, and it is junk steel. It is one thing to use a low maintenance stainless on a folder, but using it on a 1/4" thick 9-1/2" blade requires something that can resist much harder impacts. This junk will be blowing chunks. Anyway, there is no need for it, you can already buy an Mtech-151 (in 420) or a Wartech Commando (in 440), both Chinese Trailmaster clones with a better grade of steel for just 20% of Cold Steel's prices. If you really believe in this stuff, go for it. It is not going to cost you much, just make sure to keep body parts away from trajectory of potential shrapnel.

n2s
 
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not2sharp said:
Anyway, there is no need for it, you can already buy an Mtech-151 (in 420) or a Wartech Commando (in 440), both Chinese Trailmaster clones with a better grade of steel for just 20% of Cold Steel's prices.
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The "Wartech Commando" actually comes with a functional sheath unlike the Trailmaster.
 
not2sharp said:
Actually, the chemistry is more like 420J, and it is junk steel. It is one thing to use a low maintenance stainless on a folder, but using it on a 1/4" thick 9-1/2" blade requires something that can resist much harder impacts.

n2s
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SPECIFICATIONS
- Weight: 17.4oz
- Blade Thickness: 5/16"
- Blade Length: 9-1/2"
- Handle Length/Material: 5" Kray-Ex™
- Overall Length: 14-1/2"
- Additional Features: Secure-Ex® Sheath
 
Mark Spark said:
To see for myself, I picked up an Outdoorsman Lite in 4034 at my local Turner's for $30. This one was fairly sharp and had an even edge very close to 20 dps except near the tip. Thickness is about 0.035" behind the edge. Stock is 0.156". The pommel and guard are some kind of hard plastic instead of steel, but the full tang is exposed and the Kraton handle is grippy and comfortable.
Because it was already at 20 dps, it was easy to put a edge on it with a Sharpmaker. My first surprise is I was able to get it to push cut computer paper at right angles. This is very sharp indeed. I've never gotten a cheap kitchen knife this sharp. It feels smooth and sticky like AUS8, not toothy like S30V. Next I wittled Douglas fir with it and checked the edge holding. After about 50 chips it struggles to push cut. But so do any of my other knives.
Next I tried a little chopping. It's too small and light for good chopping, but it didn't chip. Still slicing paper nicely but not push cutting.
I need to do more testing. Right now I am very confused. In a blind test I would never identify it as a liner steel. I would see it is a low carbide steel, but not necessarily a bad steel. I seriously doubt this has the ingredients listed for Krupp 4034. According to them, 4034 is a medium carbon stainless with nothing else except 1% Mn. There's no listing for Japanese 4034. BTW, it didn't feel particularly soft against a diamond sharpener. I don't get it.
Separately, the Outdoorsman Lite is a fantastic knife for $20-30. The knife itself is beautiful in design and function. The sheath is a cheap hard plastic molding, but its a perfect protector for tossing in a toolbox or trunk.
I'm going to get bombed for this I know, but right now I would gladly buy any classic knife in this 4034 if the price was right. I'd prefer the upscale handles and sheath because there's so much price room if pricing is like the Outdoorsman.
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It can be very difficult to see any difference between steels using any sort of do it yourself testing. None the less, the difference is real. Lynn Thompson said so himself in both statements on this issue. If there was no difference the imported A2 would have been fine, and for that matter there would have been no reason to want A2 in the first place -- the O1 would be fine as well. Nor would it be any more difficult to machine blades from 3V than from 4034.

But there is a difference, and a real one, and it goes beyond price.

I am NOT saying this to undermine your test. I thank and respect you for doing it. I agree that 4034 might be good enough for what most people plan on doing. The questions remain: what does Cold Steel plan on charging for these cheap steel knives, and is it a good idea for Cold Steel to make their top of the line flagship knives using bottom of the line materials?

Cold Steel promised BETTER steel than O1. That was the point, the promised A2 was an upgrade. That A2 is what they had customers waiting the last couple years for. But instead, they are "upgrading" to what is essentially the lowest grade steel they could fine. It's really bizarre.

My gut tells me that this move will cost Cold Steel a great deal of customer respect and future business. I know that I have personally put ALL of my previously planned Cold Steel purchases on indefinite hold - and that's a whole bunch of knives. I still think Lynn Thompson is cool, but this decision is not.
 
All models run their course. It seems like the Trail Master was probably slowing in sales and this is a way to keep it alive.
I’ve always liked the blade but the handle? Not ergonomic and the Kraton will tear up your hand unless you’re wearing gloves.
The biggest draw of the Trail Master is nostalgia. There are better designs nowadays.
 
I think that if they released a premium steel version along with their 4034 versions, they might salvage some respect from their customers. Much like the 4 Max and 4 Max Scout. Call the 4034 versions Lite models.

However, if 4034 is the only version available... AND it is sold as a 'real' version of the knife... that's a big hit to their credibility with the knife community. They may think that sales to the general non-knife community will offset the loss that they suffer from the guys who buy a knife every couple of weeks.

Again, I am not trying to denigrate Cold Steel.They are still my favorite knife company by far. I just hate to see them backslide after a few years off upping their quality.
 
AF said:
All models run their course. It seems like the Trail Master was probably slowing in sales and this is a way to keep it alive.
I’ve always liked the blade but the handle? Not ergonomic and the Kraton will tear up your hand unless you’re wearing gloves.
The biggest draw of the Trail Master is nostalgia. There are better designs nowadays.
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Better from Cold Steel, or better from someone else? If the later, Cold Steel's "solution" would be like Chevrolet sticking a 4 banger in the Corvette because a Ferrari is faster. If the world has moved on and left the Trailmaster in the dust, it seems to me that the correct solution is to fix the Trailmaster (and these other knives).

How about a better sheath, actual kydex or leather? How about better handle options -- stacked leather, exotic and traditional woods, micarta, G10? How about better steel -- perhaps some American A2 (if Bark River can manage it why can't Cold Steel?). Why not make the Trailmaster the only bowie of its type worth even considering?
 
I'd second the motion for 1095.
It's not considered a high-end steel but Rowen is turning out some tough knives with it.
Buck seems to be doing well with 5160.

I'm not trying to cross promote Buck or Esee but if they're able to produce well made knives and sheaths at reasonable prices it may be time to try a U.S manufacturer again.The original Carbon V models were made in the states by Camillus.
A well heat treated 1095 or 5160 has to be a better alternative than what is being considered.

Manufacturing in the U.S may mean lower profit percentages but would probably pose less of a risk to the brand's reputation.
 
The best thing to come out of this thread for me is my new San Mai Trailmaster! Razor sharp and beautiful!

I have an old 6a Stainless TM from back in the day, but retired it years ago. I remember fondly gazing at the Stag TM and wondering if I would ever have enough money to buy one. Back then, it seemed unthinkable that such models could "go away" at some point.

We need a new Stag Trailmaster!
 
^ funny you mentioned that, i just got a san mai Trailmaster yesterday.With that and the carbon V one,Carbon V Recon Scout and Drop forged Survivalist i think ive got the bases covered in Cold Steel bowies.
 
There are no bad steels, only bad application. For 4034, I'd expect a Rockwell hardness in the low to mid 50's on the C scale, good impact resistance, poor wear resistance, and good corrosion resistance; pretty much ideal for a stainless machete. I have another SRK in 3V on order and was looking hard at an A2 Recon Scout. I wonder what the availability and cost of A8 Mod is like.
 
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I think a8 Mod has a special heat treat process that could be a problem with low cost.Id love to see a trailmater in that steel but also availability and price would never work in this case.If they wont use 3v they surely wont use A8.And i dont think its available outside the U.S.
 
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