A2 Steel Update

DangerZone98 said:
I love 5160 too. Got a couple of khukris in that steel. Really tough. 5160 CS knives sound like a good deal too.
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My first experience with 5160 was my first self made knife. Back yard BBQ heat treat in lump charcoal with a fan to supply oxygen. Followed "shade tree" recipe for beat treat. Surprisingly....the knife held up very well!! It was pretty when I put the handle scales on. Less so, once it met a 1×30 grinder I had just gotten (mucked up the clean, smooth radii on the handle k had spent hours doing by hand with files.

I have two HI khukri one in 5160, the other in higher carbon steel (old file).

I have two more knives I made in 5160, and had heat treated professionally.

Technically, my first 5160 knife was a custom by Bill Sigele. But I never used it. Sold it to fund another purchase, and wish I had kept it!!

I've learned that 5160 is a great steel in a big chopper. It is a fine steel in smaller fixed blades, as long as you don't mind regular touch up.

Just today, I was hammering the small fixed blade I first made in 5160 through some pine (splitting a few pieces in half to make a wood core for a sheath.)

I was nor careful and the baton drove the edge of the knife into the steel vice anvil beneath it. Few minutes on a sharpening stone fixed the roll/damaged edge right up.
 
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I really can't wait for these to hit the market.

I already see YouTubers slamming them into hard pieces of wood and batonning them into knots...

At least mall ninjas will be happy as they finally have real Cold Steel for cheap...
 
Bigfattyt said:
My first experience with 5160 was my first self made knife. Back yard BBQ heat treat in lump charcoal with a fan to supply oxygen. Followed "shade tree" recipe for beat treat. Surprisingly....the knife held up very well!! It was pretty when I put the handle scales on. Less so, once it met a 1×30 grinder I had just gotten (mucked up the clean, smooth radii on the handle k had spent hours doing by hand with files.

I have two HI khukri one in 5160, the other in higher carbon steel (old file).

I have two more knives I made and had heat treated professionally.

Technically, my first 5160 knife was a custom by Bill Sigele. But I never used it. Sold it to fund another purchase, and wish I had kept it!!
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That’s interesting. Thanks for sharing your story. Someday, I want to try garage blacksmithing too, hehe.

Kailash Blades makes awesome kukris too.
 
Smiling said:
I really can't wait for these to hit the market.

I already see YouTubers slamming them into hard pieces of wood and batonning them into knots...

At least mall ninjas will be happy as they finally have real Cold Steel for cheap...
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I’m gonna leave the testing to the professionals with safety equipment. I’d rather not have a knife that may shatter into 75 million pieces.
 
EatingSarma said:
I ruined many knives.

Soft flea market stainless will usually suffer from rolls, bends and won't hold an edge worth a crap.
In rare occassions they run them at high HRC and edge holding is decent, but then it chips and breaks. It often breaks in several pieces. And if you use it to chop - chips will sometimes fly around instead of staying in wood.

Carbon steel Mora also broke with 2 fragments when I tried to pry open paint can with it.

My cousin's Ka-Bar USMC broke at the tang when I used it to chop...

It depends on steel, geometry, heat treatment and what you're doing with it. But shrapnels and fragments do happen and it can injure you. At least eye goggles are a must. I personally use safety gear each time I do stupid stuff with my knives.
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That’s a big yikes for the Trailmaster and Recon Scout, since they seem to be oriented to big field knife uses like chopping thin branches. Of course it’s better to have a hatchet for dedicated chopping tasks, but if I have a big knife, I want it to be damn capable of some reasonable punishment if need be.

These upcoming 4034 knives better have some magic heat treatment.
 

Just for comparison, this is how 5160 performs. The steel is primarily used for auto and truck springs and if you think about how often your suspension flexes over the course of the life of your vehicle, and how exposed the metal is to the environment, the stuff really is tough, durable, and common. LT may have popularized attacking cars with knives, but these guys have outdone him.

It’s a shame we can’t bring this steel to some of the larger Cold Steel knives.

n2s
 
The big question now is how much ? If 4034 is less expensive and easier to machine, theres no way they can be sold at the same prices as the previous knives in 01;the street price for the trailmaster and recon has to be 100.00 or less.the Natchez might be a bit more,but then i think of that united expendibles bowie that was 79.95.natchez has a more solid guard and handle.And remember, if these are going to be made in China instead of Taiwan ,which we dont know for sure yet,that has to drop the price too. Ranch boss is China ,so that might be another cost saving factor??What do you guys think the street price should be on these knives?
 
goldie said:
The big question now is how much ? If 4034 is less expensive and easier to machine, theres no way they can be sold at the same prices as the previous knives in 01;the street price for the trailmaster and recon has to be 100.00 or less.the Natchez might be a bit more,but then i think of that united expendibles bowie that was 79.95.natchez has a more solid guard and handle.And remember, if these are going to be made in China instead of Taiwan ,which we dont know for sure yet,that has to drop the price too. Ranch boss is China ,so that might be another cost saving factor??What do you guys think the street price should be on these knives?
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80 bucks.


not2sharp said:

Just for comparison, this is how 5160 performs. The steel is primarily used for auto and truck springs and if you think about how often your suspension flexes over the course of the life of your vehicle, and how exposed the metal is to the environment, the stuff really is tough, durable, and common. LT may have popularized attacking cars with knives, but these guys have outdone him.

It’s a shame we can’t bring this steel to some of the larger Cold Steel knives.

n2s
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5160 can’t be that difficult to obtain. Damn shame indeed if we can’t have this or any other carbon steel really.
 
goldie said:
The big question now is how much ? If 4034 is less expensive and easier to machine, theres no way they can be sold at the same prices as the previous knives in 01;the street price for the trailmaster and recon has to be 100.00 or less.the Natchez might be a bit more,but then i think of that united expendibles bowie that was 79.95.natchez has a more solid guard and handle.And remember, if these are going to be made in China instead of Taiwan ,which we dont know for sure yet,that has to drop the price too. Ranch boss is China ,so that might be another cost saving factor??What do you guys think the street price should be on these knives?
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Based on the prices seen on Mtech and Wartech, the new Trailmaster should go for around $40.

n2s
 
I agree with those who have said that 4034 is not AEB-L. Zknives identifies it as a 420HC-class steel. That makes more sense to me.

I'm going to reserve judgement about 4034's performance until these knives hit the market. The numbers aren't promising, but perhaps I'll be surprised.

But even if the performance does surprise us, Cold Steel still has to contend with the issue of perception. Releasing a classic like the Trailmaster in 4034 will be perceived negatively by knowledgeable knife users. This thread is testimony to that.

As for assessing the company, I try to look at everything they are doing, rather than focus on one or two issues. Yes, I don't agree with the decision to use 4034 in classics like the Trailmaster. I'm also concerned that their strategy of targeting so many different market segments could spread them too thin, causing quality to suffer. But on the positive side, I'm encouraged by the release of iconic knives like the SRK, Master Hunter, and Tanto series in 3V. I'm also very pleased with the AUS 10 in my Voyager and Espada. And then there's the AD-10. I really need to get one of those!

I'm still a fan of Cold Steel. I just don't know that I'll be buying any of their big knives in 4034.
 
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Kels73 said:
I agree with those who have said that 4034 is not AEB-L. Zknives identifies it as a 420HC-class steel. That makes more sense to me.

I'm going to reserve judgement about 4034's performance until these knives hit the market. The numbers aren't promising, but perhaps I'll be surprised.

But even if the performance does surprise us, Cold Steel still has to contend with the issue of perception. Releasing a classic like the Trailmaster in 4034 will be perceived negatively by knowledgeable knife users. This thread is testimony to that.

As for assessing the company, I try to look at everything they are doing, rather than focus on one or two issues. Yes, I don't agree with the decision to use 4034 in classics like the Trailmaster. I'm also concerned that their strategy of targeting so many different market segments could spread them too thin, causing quality to suffer. But on the positive side, I'm encouraged by the release of iconic knives like the SRK, Master Hunter, and Tanto series in 3V. I'm also very pleased with the AUS 10 in my Voyager and Espada. And then there's the AD-10. I really need to get one of those!

I'm still a fan of Cold Steel. I just don't know that I'll be buying any of their big knives in 4034.
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Agree.
 
"Advice:
Keep sharpening stone at hand because you'll possibly need it as soon as you get it out of sheath. And after each few strikes...

Prepare safety goggles and some thick leather gloves so you don't get hit by shrapnel when this thing starts to break.

Also keep a hammer at hand so you can hammer it back straight in case it starts to warp."

My guess is due to the composition they will be fortunate to harden it past rc 55-56 . It will be pretty tough but likely will need fairly thick/obtuse edge in comparison to the higher carbon steels at rc59 or so with higher strength. Such compromises are sometimes necessary.

By the way I think the idea of this 4034 model costing near $100 would be a sad and definitely unfunny joke. At most it should be a slightly higher selling price than the SK5 SRK but only because I'm assuming higher finish and better polish. Even at that price it wouldn't even begin to tempt me. If I got a free one I'd just give it away.

Joe
 
DangerZone98 said:
Just curious. Never broke a knife before so I gotta ask. How do knives break exactly? I always thought it would just break in half and that’s it. Can a knife “shatter” like glass spraying shrapnel everywhere?
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They usually break at the blade/tang junction, if they're not tough enough. And yes, crap steel with impurities can shatter when you hit something hard. Shards can fly in 3-4 directions. If it hits you in the eye, you'll wish you'd chosen another hobby.
 
Mark Spark said:
I'm not sure how accurate what everyone thinks they know about steel is. I went to the knife steel nerds website and collected relevant data as follows:
steel RC Catra mm toughness
1095 62 316 10
1084 60.5 - 25
O1 61 283 15
A2 61.5 339 15
52100 61 328 28
AEB-L 61 360 37
S30V 60 575 5
He didn't have 4034. But AEB-L is very close:
AEB-L 4034
C 0.67% 0.46%
Cr 13% 13.5%
So 4034 is probably twice as tough as O1 and A2 and tougher than 52100. 4034 edge retention is probably same as A2, which isn't saying much. All these steels without Vanadium have meh edge holding. But if they have V, unless powdered (like 3V) they have low toughness.
I included S30V to show a high edge holding number.
According to this data, 4034 would be the best steel for a large knife. This obviously contradicts common opinion.
I haven't mentioned that 4034 C and Cr are specifically calibrated for highest sharpness capability. I suppose this causes the high polishability and grindability too. Causing low cost as a side effect.
3 conclusions:
1. I trust LT knows his a_s from a hole in the ground. 2. I intend to get a Laredo in 4034. 3. CS has a (manageable) marketing problem to look forward to.
Fire away.
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Kudos to you for all the work you did to compile this data. But there's something wrong here. Perhaps some of the data is not measuring steel at its sweet spot for heat treat. Like A2 has a sweet spot @ 58-60 Rc. Go higher and it rapidly loses toughness. And some of the data may simply be incorrect. I have a difficult time believing that 4034 is going to be tougher than A2 or O1 or 52100, let alone twice as tough. If that were true, wouldn't 4034 be one of the best steels for big knives and swords? But we know that is not the case. Is there a knifemaker out there who can weigh in on this?
 
LuckyC said:
For 4034, I'd expect a Rockwell hardness in the low to mid 50's on the C scale, good impact resistance, poor wear resistance, and good corrosion resistance; pretty much ideal for a stainless machete.
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Best case scenario, this is probably what turns up. It might be tough, but low Rc means poor wear resistance, may be good corrosion resistance. Almost what you'd want in a dive knife, for scuba divers, which most of us aren't. But it falls far short compared to other available large knives on the market. Why would anyone who knows better choose this over the competition?
 
I suggest reading the article at this link:
http://www.nordsmithknives.com/blog...perfect-stainless-steel-for-an-outdoors-knife
It basically says AEB-L beats the snot out of 52100 on all measures important to knives including wear resistance. As we know, 52100 beats the snot out of O1 and A2. So there's a lot of room for 4034, which is similar to AEB-L, to be not just as good as, but better than A2.
I'll bet there's no cost difference in material between 4034 and AEB-L. If 4034 is cheaper to sell its probably because it's easier to work.
Steel snobbery is a powerful force. Just because 4034 is low cost doesn't mean it's low performance. Have some faith in CS.
 
Mark Spark said:
I suggest reading the article at this link:
http://www.nordsmithknives.com/blog...perfect-stainless-steel-for-an-outdoors-knife
It basically says AEB-L beats the snot out of 52100 on all measures important to knives including wear resistance. As we know, 52100 beats the snot out of O1 and A2. So there's a lot of room for 4034, which is similar to AEB-L, to be not just as good as, but better than A2.
I'll bet there's no cost difference in material between 4034 and AEB-L. If 4034 is cheaper to sell its probably because it's easier to work.
Steel snobbery is a powerful force. Just because 4034 is low cost doesn't mean it's low performance. Have some faith in CS.
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AEBL != 4034
Science is hard......
 
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