Advice on knife making as a future career.

Knifemaking is a GREAT hobby but a brutally tough and (even more) competitive career for most people.

Anyone who thinks that $60,000 of before tax revenue is needs to either take some elementary business classes or, simply, read a basic accounting textbook. The start-up costs alone (to do it right that is) are substantial. You can't make knives with files when time is money unless you're Wolfgang Loerchner or learning at your father's side like Reese Bose................. You are very lucky to have Del Ealy willing to mentor you. He's a swell guy and a dynamite damascus/mokume maker and bladesmith.

There's a joke that goes :

Interviewer: What's the best way to make $1,000,000 as a knifemaker?

Top 10 Knifemaker: Start with $2,000,000

Good luck with whatever you decide

Corey "synthesist" Gimbel
 
You've gotten several good opinions already. I'll add a couple of points that I've witnessed firsthand. I REALLY enjoy this hobby-more than any other I've had. I get to make whatever knife I'm interested in making.

In contrast, I have a friend who supports his family by making knives. I've watched as he deals with the frustrations of dealers, learned the headaches of dealing with difficult customers, etc. There are knife projects he'd love to work on, but the reality is, he does his best to make products that people will buy. There is significant risk in doing one offs or spending a lot of time on something that may sit unsold for a long time.

That being said, he does a job he likes vs working for someone he doesn't like or a job that isn't satisfying, etc. Ed Caffrey once told me I'd be nuts to quit a job with health insurance, paid vacation/sick leave, and steady income. There can be significant truth to that.

From what you've said, it sounds like you have some good stuff in the works. If you spend the next few years gaining skills and experience, along with tools and equipment, you'll be ahead. When your fiancée finishes school and gets a decent paying job, it'll make a transition to knife making for you that much easier. Having at least one income steady would make life a lot easier. Enjoy the time being as much as you can and learn everything you can. You'll be that much better for it when the time comes. :thumbup:

Jeremy
 
Something to consider is that many, if not most, of the great makers (ie. those who can make a decent living from knife making) either have huge waiting lists or indeed don't even take orders (ie. their backlogs are literally such that they are drowning in orders).

My point being that even if you are a master of the craft you cannot turn these things out like a croupier dealing out cards at a casino. To charge big $$$ the maker must invest a huge amount of time. For example, everytime I think "Gee, seems like Kyle Royer hasn't posted here for weeks" I remind myself that he's probably right in the middle of make "a knife".

Having said that I hope you achieve your dream!

Cheers....Pete
 
im full time an i can only do it due to a lovig soon to be wife. full time knife maker =s 60-80 hours a week and if lucky a bit more then min wage (this is if you become a kwon maker ) i feel i got a good day in if i get 6 hours a day in the shop for truely working
since you have some schooling finish out what you need to get a good job or at least an ok one. let knife makig be a over time hoby / fun $ till you can have a fully outfitted shop.
i love my job and live in a fairly low income town but if i had to make ends meet my self i woudl likly have a "real" job i hated and woudl be spending 3 hours a day loving my knife making. making side fun $

edit to add i have 3 retailers that buy just about eveything i make and have a backlog of orders that while not long takes a while to get made since i need to keel my retailers happy too
 
I am humbled by the fortitude of those willing to stick this out as a full time endeavor. There is never an end to the amount of money that can be spent to make knives. Sure, you can start out with a drill press and a belt grinder and consider yourself good. Then pretty soon you think that a band saw will help speed things up. And how about a Foredom, and a disc grinder to get your flats flat. A surface grinder, knee mill, Evenheat, blast cabinet, vibratory tumbler, MATERIAL, all kinds of tooling and measuring devices, surface plate, lighting, PPE. Well now, I can save money by building all kinds of fixtures to make my life easier... as a full time maker everything you build takes time away from earning an income.

BELTS!!!!!! Before you know it your belt order is in the hundreds of dollars.

The most difficult obstacle in my estimation (I'm a hobbiest who hasn't sold anything) is trying to be competitive with the hobbiest who makes knives in their leisure time for fun and is content to sell them for just enough money to buy some more steel and belts. No other industry I can think of has such a self perpetuating way of shooting itself in the foot.

Sure it's possible. As was said by many, get a full time income and hone your skills and never ever ever be without insurance. Good luck.
 
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InSpectre Gadget said:
Just scraping by at $60,000/year? I'd love to be "scraping" by those standards. My wife and I currently live on less than a third of that per year while I'm in school. Again, the definition of "scraping by" eludes me in the context of $60,000/year.

I suppose if sales were erratic it might be harder from time to time...still looks awesome.
Click to expand...

That is $60,000 in sales. Then there are all the expenses. If you think sales=profits you need to learn more before running a business.
 
OK, I'll say it. Sense you spilled your guts and told us all about your self.
Get to work and start providing for that child you fathered. Really am I the first one to mention this to you? And your future plans are to live off of your parents until your wife can take care of you?

One of the intangibles that makes a great knife maker is the respect he achieves along the way. What have you done so far that is respectable?
 
I often find that making lists of the pros and cons helps make a decision clearer. What follows is not intended to describe YOUR situation, but might offer you a template for making your own list

Pros of Knifemaking as a career:
* You get to make something useful that you can be proud of
* You get to use your hands to make money instead of sitting on your butt working for The Man
* You can set your own schedule (so long as the schedule includes working 12 hours a day)
* You get to use powerful equipment and make lots of manly smells and noises

Cons of Knifemaking as a career:
* Injuries can be a problem
* You probably won't be making enough money for a while to afford health insurance
* The dust and chemicals you'll be working with are dangerous to your health (and potentially the health of your family)
* The equipment and supplies investment never ends; equipment requires upkeep and supplies get consumed
* The manly smells and noises may become a problem for the family or neighbors
 
John said it before I could. I think you wanting to make knifemaking a big part of your life is wonderful. I am in the same boat with you. I think you need to take it easy as a hobbyist for awhile, and go ahead and finish school. I don't know your situation, and I'm not asking, but hopefully it's not too late to have your child in your life.

You may not love your degree in Fisheries and wildlife management, as I don't love my degree in corrections and criminal justice, but it's a degree. You will have that for the rest of your life, and nobody can take it from you. It's like a big ol' key that will get you in the door that alot of people can't access. I would be willing to bet that most employers don't really look at the type of degree, but that you stuck it out and was responsible and tough enough to finish. They see you had the guts to give it hell, so they're going to think you're going to do the same for their company. My supervisor has a degree in a completely unrelated field, as do alot of people.

As far as full time knifemaking goes, it's wonderful that you have a spouse that supports you. Most full time guys do. That's about the long and short of it.

I can only give you enough advice on knifemaking based upon my own experience. I'll just say that it took me years of procuring basic machinery, hand tools, and instructional items. It seems I did my homework, and read and watched everything I could get my hands on for YEARS before touching blade to belt. It's also sometimes difficult separating the bullshit from the real deal as far as instruction and advice. Be critical. Give the finger to some of these common methods. Do you see very many high end folder makers working with the files and sandpaper everyone says to use?

Keep at it. Read and watch as much as you can. Get a good 2x72 belt grinder and forget about any other machine. Just forget about it. A good 2x72 will get you where you want to go.

With all this weird rambling said, (early for me) I feel that if you have a good skill set, basic tools, and you're producing clean work, knifemaking is the absolute best part time job you can have. Also, who says you have to make knives? Alot of guys make little gadgets and EDC items along with knives that fly off the shelves.
 
There is a great line in the movie "Gladiator" when General Maximus asks his servant if he finds it hard to do his job. His reply, "Sometimes I get to do what I want, the rest of the time, I do what I must". That is life all summed up right there.

Bob
 
Thank guys. Lots of good things to think about. If I can get back into working for the DNR for the summers then I will be able to have insurance and the state gives us a 401k. I already worked a couple summers so if I stay in this state I already have money going towards my retirement. That would also give me the off season to hone my skills and start building a reputation, if I can get one that is.

I'd like to clear up the story with my child though as I feel like I was personally attacked for that. Bear with me as this is a little confusing. My fiancee's half brothers have a half sister, so technically not related to us but still in the family...kind of. Her and her husband could not have kids. When we discovered this we contacted them as we knew they were looking into adoption. Here we are now and our little girl is with a happy loving family who can give her the life she deserves because I couldn't do it myself. We still get to see her every year and the parents are slowly trying to teach her about adoption and always make sure she knows who we are. I did the best thing that I could have ever done for that girl.

Also on the point of me living off of my parents. I don't. Plain and simple I don't and don't plan to. I haven't for a while as I have had a job up until this last semester when I moved to this school. They still help me with school, when they can, but I don't expect them to as I can figure things out for myself. And as far as my fiancee goes she has said on multiple occasions that in the future when I feel like I can make money off of this, if ever, that she is 100% fine with it and even supports it.

That being said I appreciate all of the constructive comments. I knew about all the costs in belts, blades, bits, sand paper, oils, etc but I always seem to let those costs slip my mind when I think about making this my future job. I had also thought about selling some other items to go with knives at some point but recently completely forgotten about it. I think it would be good to make as much as I could along with knives to have some extra income. Thanks again guys!
 
My advice to a young person would be: Don't try to make a living doing something that a lot of people will do for free or next to nothing.

Be it playing in a band, art,photography, knife making ect, if there are many people that will do it for cheap or next to nothing to keep their hobby going, it is going to be an up hill battle. Look at the exchange here, people are just about giving knives away so they can get some more materials and tools. Hard to compete with that when you have real overhead, bills, taxes ect. and still have to buy materials and tools.

There are several knife makers that consistently put out great products and appear to make a decent living at it but they would probably have been successful in many other fields if they put their skills and abilities elsewhere, and they would probably be financially better off. There are also top knife makers that regularly work "other" or "odd" jobs just the make ends meet. Other rely on spouse or retirement income.

If you are skilled, motivated,determined and intelligent, use that to make money and make knives for the passion.
Just my opinion.
 
My intent was not to be discouraging, there are some guys who make it and seem quite happy. But the bald truth for me is that I would have made more money, and my family and I would all have been less stressed and better fed, if I had taken half the time I spent making knives, and flipped burgers at McDonalds instead. I had to have the reality of this fact beaten into me before I could accept it, but once I did it was actually a relief. Fortunately, my background in the building trades and the slowly improving economy have allowed me much better opportunities than McDonalds, including (ironically enough) going to school to hopefully start a higher-paying career.

Happiness comes with proper balance, and I did not find that balance when I had to eat, think, breathe and sleep knives that were destined for the hands of people with jobs that allowed them to afford such things. The reality finally set in that I was working 6 or 7 days a week and was still too broke to afford my own product. I will make a lot fewer knives now than I did as a full time maker, but I think I'm going to appreciate the fact that I can spend as long as I want on a knife, and actually keep it when I'm done.

This is an individual pursuit and the path will be different for everyone. I don't necessarily regret giving it a go full-time, but I'm glad to be done with that portion of my working life and I wouldn't do it again. I hope that you or anyone else stepping into it full-time has a better experience than I did, and the right preparation and forethought would probably make it so, but in my humble opinion the right preparation should definitely include years of practice as a hobbyist/part time maker, with a good-paying job in the interim.
 
I would say that it would be well to consider Justin's advice carefully. I own three of his historical pieces, and I can tell you that the guy has some serious talent. Yet still he discovered that he couldn't make it going full time. My theory is that if you want to do it full time, start out as part time and see how it goes. It should become clear quite quickly if it's a full time gig for you or not.
 
To lend the OP my $.02: I would first of all encourage you change majors if and while you can, if you're not truly happy with what you're studying or the jobs that it will lead to. That said, a bachelors (or even a masters) doesn't necessarily guarantee a larger paycheck either.

My first year of college, I asked the head of the engineering department at Purdue University Calumet if he thought spending 4 years (or more) at college was inherently better than spending 2 years (and much less money) in a trade school of some kind.

His answer surprised me. He said that not only would I probably find a job quicker, but I would probably be in a relatively higher demand and start out making a little bit more money as well... THROUGH a trade school.

What was happening at the time (this was 11 or 12 years ago, but I think it's still happening), is that everybody was going to a 4 year university, and that was leaving the trades SERIOUSLY lacking for resources. You then had an oversaturated market of "paper holders" all gunning for the same jobs, while industries were struggling to find skilled tradesman and laborers.

Now, obviously every region, city, state, or what have you, is going to have a different type of job market with different demands and opportunities, but that's the research and decisions that you'll have to make.

Have you considered starting a trade that may possibly lend it's skills and experience to knife making? Perhaps something mechanical/machinist based? Maybe something that you'd enjoy a little more thoroughly?

Don't misunderstand: trades have their own challenges depending on what kind of company you work for, and a lot of them start off at or near minimum wage for apprenticeships and what not, but at the same time, opportunities do exist.

Something to think about in the mean time....
 
My 0.001 cent HO. I enjoy hobby in knife making & metallurgy but be self-critical & honest about it.

In order to make a living minimum wage as a sole knife maker, consider these #s/statistics (off my head but sound reasonable - heheh).

Knife market share:
1. 99.9% taken by commodity makers - large companies.

2. 90% of 0.1% remain taken by 5% top tier custom makers. Keep divide this way for a few times. What's left of the pie to be shared by other f/t; p/t; hobby;etc makers.

3. Whenever 1. decrease (so 2. increase), large companies will adapt/copy to regain the share. KAI so.

Your share depend on: skills + marketing + Advantage-Edge(AE) + (finally) [resources + patience+timing+lucks]
* it will take a long while to make your first $6K, so $60K/yr is much further into wishful future.

AE:
i. Design & art - but quickly share with me-too-cloners, since it's low barrier to entry.
ii. Established brand - e.g. Carter's cutlery.
iii. Trade secrets - chemistry, ht, etc.. Chemistry can easily be reverse engineer however ht is harder for other to do so.

Lastly, hobby = enjoyment, work = worry. I believe in having a solid education (gain analytical mind), then pursue trade/field in depth.
 
If you stick around here long enough you will see several people like you over the course of each month that come on with virtually no experience and decide they are destined for a career in knifemaking. I'm not making fun of you or them, simply noting the frequency with which this topic arises.

That ought to tell you something by itself. the field is crowded at the low end, and your idea for a career is not as rare as you might think.

Most of those folks get advice very similar to the advice you received. And, quite frankly, most of them are never heard from again.

Some come here with grandiose plans and big ideas, long on wishfulness, short on resources. Those folks rarely get past the first few posts before fizzling out. Whether they go off to try an execute those grandiose plans is something we may never know and always speculate about. But so far I have never seen their names show up as "up and coming custom knife maker".

Here's a short list of the types of aspirants I see on a regular basis:

* Guys thinking they can make a killing by putting handles on kit knives
* Guys who have been "designing" knives since they were kids (and the designs look juvenile) and are sure they have the next great thing
* Guys that really like some custom maker's (e.g. Bussee) knives and are sure they can do better
* Guys who think the world is willing pay big bucks for some fantasy knife designs (just because they aren't available)
* Guys who think they can whip out some quicky sharpened pry bar design and sell it for $150

Anyway, I hope you get the idea.

Stick around... watch the flow of traffic here. Get a sense for how much competition you will have at the low end before you have a chance to "make your name". If nothing else, you can derive amusement (and perhaps some insights) from the foibles of others.
 
bluntcut said:
In order to make a living minimum wage as a sole knife maker, consider these #s/statistics (off my head but sound reasonable - heheh).

Knife market share:
1. 99.9% taken by commodity makers - large companies.

2. 90% of 0.1% remain taken by 5% top tier custom makers. Keep divide this way for a few times. What's left of the pie to be shared by other f/t; p/t; hobby;etc makers.

3. Whenever 1. decrease (so 2. increase), large companies will adapt/copy to regain the share. KAI so.

Your share depend on: skills + marketing + Advantage-Edge(AE) + (finally) [resources + patience+timing+lucks]
* it will take a long while to make your first $6K, so $60K/yr is much further into wishful future.

AE:
i. Design & art - but quickly share with me-too-cloners, since it's low barrier to entry.
ii. Established brand - e.g. Carter's cutlery.
iii. Trade secrets - chemistry, ht, etc.. Chemistry can easily be reverse engineer however ht is harder for other to do
Click to expand...

Sorry, but throwing out statistics without any sort of data to back it up is pretty ridiculous, IMHO. You also talk about trade secrets for heat treating, branding and art/ design cloners... Sorry again, but this is not really pertinent when talking about a guy who is looking to start out making custom knives on a small scale.
 
You're right Bob! Those #s were indeed a wag and weren't helpful. I sure wish somebody would show some market research #s, good to know the amt of share a new f/t maker can project/expect to earn/get from this competitive market. As a serial entrepreneur, I sure like/prefer to enter a market well armed with Advantages (yeah, patents would be extra nice;)).

Bob Katilus said:
Sorry, but throwing out statistics without any sort of data to back it up is pretty ridiculous, IMHO. You also talk about trade secrets for heat treating, branding and art/ design cloners... Sorry again, but this is not really pertinent when talking about a guy who is looking to start out making custom knives on a small scale.
Click to expand...
 
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