Advice on knife making as a future career.

Interesting thread...

I'm a photographer and just purchased a custom knife recently. The price was about $600 and that got me thinking:
The maker and I are offering a service (with a fair amount of skill set) and how could a person make a living by pricing his knives at $600 each? I don't know much about his standard/cost of living, I figured if he can produce 4-5 per month he just about breaks even; by that I mean he maintains his standard of living but not much left over for exrtras (kids/college/holiday/newcar...etc)

I'll be following this thread to get some insights on this industry, meanwhile I came across this video on Youtube,
It's a general guide on how to price your custom knife, very interesting, enjoy and good luck to the OP.

[video=youtube_share;BBs5IuFAyCE]http://youtu.be/BBs5IuFAyCE[/video]
 
First of all, a bachelors degree is not the be all end all when it comes time to look for a job. Many of my friends have 4 year degrees and their jobs aren't even close to what they studied. Here's my two cents: Since you seem to be a techie guy, think about something like a technical welder. My understanding is the money is fantastic, and for someone like you it would get you just a bit closer to your dream. Then, as someone else said, get into knife making part-time. At least you'll be delivering your custom knives in a new Audi instead of the bus.
 
That video on how to price knives goes really in depth with all of the costs. Its a great tool to have and look at. Thanks.
 
Andy,

I lurk on here more than I post, but I'll throw a couple of comments out here.

Of those in the knifemaking community who know me, very few know that I am a wildlife biologist. That, in itself, was a long road. I discovered my passion for it at an early age (14), spent 6 years pursuing a BS and MS, and put another dozen years in paying my dues before landing a permanent job in my field. While I don't know your situation, I've met a lot of guys along the way that love the outdoors, love hunting and fishing, and think they have what it takes. The wildlife field isn't hunting and fishing, it's applied science, and many don't understand that early enough. While I typically don't like to discourage people from their dream, at the same time I don't want to encourage you to pursue a degree that you've decided you don't want. The wildlife field is highly competitive--the only employers are state and federal agencies, consulting companies, and perhaps a handful of stable NGO's. Of those who've stopped at a Bachelor's degree, very few find gainful employment in the field and of the many who don't, they usually go onto some other line of work where a 4-year degree may or may not have helped.

I've made knives as a hobby for over a decade, and in my time interacting with other makers and watching others on the various knife forums, I find that to be successful at knifemaking it isn't that different from other professions with a limited market, such as wildlife. You have to be at the top of your game. You have to put in your dues. Even on your worst day, you have to want it. Many love the hobby, but dislike the job. So you've made a few knives and you like it. Great! Personally, in spite of the fact that I love my current job, I wouldn't want to be a knifemaker full time. I know that I can go to work and do one job--wildlife biologist. I know that if I ever tried to be a full time knifemaker I would have to be production team, artist, marketing and sales rep, head of maintenance, director of purchasing, travel agent, accountant, head engineer for R&D, chief of quality control, and at the end of the day, run the call center and complaint department!

Like others on here have said--stick around and watch. Learn from the guys that have imploded when family emergencies happened and bills started piling up (Google Dale Chudzinski and Mark Wohlwend, and there are others besides them). Very few guys become successful at this. Of those, even fewer survive the success. Don't forget, bad news travels faster than good news. Talk to the guys that have been successful at this, and by successful I mean the guys that have made knives full time for 10, 15, or 20 years. There have been quite a few that have made a good go of it but have disappeared after 5 years.

Also, realize that you want to create a product to sell to people who don't need knives. They spend disposable income on a custom knife the way that someone might buy a Corvette instead of a Kia. The people that need knives go to WalMart and spend $20. The people that WANT knives, and have the extra cash to buy what they WANT, will be very particular. And when the economy hits a slump, those people spend less on what they want because they have to make sure they spend it on what they need. As a result the makers who were getting by in the good times struggle when the economy is slow.

Right now you have found a hobby that you like. Go and learn to make knives--learn what makes a functional design, and an attractive one. Learn to make sheaths. Then go to a knife show, take a couple of your knives along, and compare them to the big boys. If your work is on par with those, then maybe you'll be ready to start selling.

It's at that point you'll need to decide if you are going to be a hobbyist or a businessman. And it's at that point that it won't be about making the knives, it will be about running a business. Use the search function here and look up Les Robertson's older posts from over the years about finding your place in the market. Learn about how to develop and follow a business plan.

Good luck. Work your ass off, learn everything you can, be a gentleman in the business and build your reputation and respect.
 
There have been many great reply's to the original question. I related to the one which stated that "don't rely on an income from something which others are willing to do for very little compensation".

I have a challenging and rewarding full time job, in a completely different field. This job has enabled me to pursue my hobby of making knives. I use some of my excess income to buy equipment for knife making. I sell the knives that I make, but it it barely increases my yearly earnings.

Simply put, I hope that my skills bring enough recognition to my work in the next 10 years, that . . .. perhaps, I might earn myself a few dollars more during retirement.

Mike L.
 
I guess I should also point out that my fiancee and I don't want a lot of money. We want to get our student loans paid and then we don't care as long as we have enough to pay bills and have food. I am not looking to make a million dollars or anything cause I know that just simply wont happen, no matter what path I take.
 
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These days nobody asks me to teach them how to make a knife. Everyone wants to be a full time knifemaker. I actually totaly get this. I dreamed of being full time from the first day I finished a knife. AND, I do love my job. Sometimes it feels like a love hate relationship and sometimes I know that from the outside looking in I may not seem to love it so much. The reality is that it is a very hard job (physically and mentally), that is very rewarding for me.

It was mentioned that 60K in revenue is not the same as profits. True. Outlandish sounding to me is the attitude that selling 300 knives in a year is easy. Like, why not go full time and live high on the 60K hog. Let me tell you that that is not the case. I got laid off May 1 2009, and went full time that day. I wound up finishing 350 knives that year and it was not easy to sell that pile of knives. I'd been making knives for two years and had made and sold 200 knives before going full time. I already had a brand name, I already had a fully functioning shop, I already had logo's, I already had a forum, and I had a track record of sales.

In my experience, 65% of knifemaking revenue is materials and shop cost. Another ~25% is labor. My company has generally over the years netted a 10% profit. Last week we made 36 knives. 3 were duds and couldn't be sold. There went that 10%. No profit last week, but covered expenses and labor. This becomes even more important when you have employees. The stress of making their $ FIRST is heavy.

Its doable though, and I am enjoying it. You've got to brand it and market it correctly, and you've got to make sexy knives.
 
Fiddleback you DO make sexy knives. I don't get why someone wouldn't ask you how to make a knife. I would love for you to teach me how to make a knife as I would like to learn from every possible maker. I know that wont happen as I live so far north and many people are no where near me. I'm lucky enough that Del lives near me so I can at least learn from one. I DO eventually want to make this a full time job, but keyword here is eventually. I want to learn as much as I possibly can and learn from as many people as I can. I feel like it would make me a better maker myself. That is the real reason why I posted the question is because I want to learn everything and I figured a lot of you would have great information for me. I now know so much more about the costs and profits in the business which will help me when I go to make the decision to become a maker full time or not.
 
It's rare that someone possess the skills to build great knives and have the business acumen necessary to run a successful company. To be successful you have to be capable of marketing yourself and your knives effectively by using technology to your advantage, building the brand image (constantly), especially when it comes to customer service. Be willing to recognize your own limitations and find someone capable of filling the gap.

Just my experience working for a major knife brand for three years now.

edit: deleted a word
 
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My wife is an employment resourse coordinator. Her job is working with employers to find qualified workers. She tells me that she has so many job requests for machinists and welders that she cannot find enought people to fill them. For qualified workers she says $20-$30 an hour is what the jobs pay.Before I went into my current profession I was a machinist and made a decent living at it. If you want to make knives I would suggest that you find a job in a machine shop. It will help you be a better knife maker. Go to night classes at your local vocational school to get yourself a certificate you would be talking months not years to finish. From what I have read it is very difficult to make a full time living at making knives.
 
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Lots of great replies.

Please keep in mind, there can be a big difference between being okay with not having a lot.... and living from knife to knife with a whole pile of stress crushing you in between.


The number one issue with this, as a general rule, is that most guys who have the brain/eye/hands connection to be halfway successful building knives, rarely have the right mind for successfully running it as a business.

Yes, I call myself out as guilty of that... Right to the head of that line for me!!!!! :eek: :foot: :o


Shane Sibert of Sibert Knives wrote a fantastic post here about a year and a half ago, about the difficulties of being a full-time maker. BLADE magazine broke it up into two parts and published it... it was that well written and HONEST.


I'm not one to squash somebody's dreams. I hate it when people give me grief about doing what I do. However, I don't think you can even consider any kind of full time knife making if you do not have a well equipped shop and a fairly strong following (for most guys, that takes many years). Andy is a bit of an exception to that because he has worked his ass off and puts out a very recognizable product--- so he managed to build up a rock star status in a relatively short time.

My best advice is to do whatever you're good at, and enjoy doing. :)
 
Very interesting thread, lots of good advice. I have made knives for over 30 years, and would NOT want it as a full time job. Until I retired, I had a teaching job. This gave me a monthly pay-check, insurance, retirement, etc.
Knifemaking for me is fun when I want to do it. I just finished ten knives, and for the next few days am burned out on knifemaking. If I had to depend on knife sales for my living, I would need to continue to make knives even though I didn't want to. Making something you don't want to make is not fun, and quality will probably suffer. Knifemaking can be tedious, and spending hours at a grinder can be very tiring. I don't take orders anymore because I don't want the pressure of needing to work on something when I don't feel like it.
Depending on sales during bad economic times can be tough.
Others have mentioned how competitive this is. It seems like everyone either makes knives or knows someone that does.
I have been to several full time knifemakers homes, and one is a big name maker who lives in a mobile home. For most, full time knifemaking is not a way to get rich. It might be a good way to go broke.
Someone said the best tool to get is a good 2"x72" grinder. I really agree with that.
For me, knifemaking has been a great hobby. With my knife profits I have invested in shop equipment and have run out of shop room.
 
I work all the time when I don't feel like it. I get up at 4:30 am and work till goal or when the kid has softball. When I'm done with goals, but have half an hour left, I go on to tomorrow's stuff. When my grinding is off, I have to keep on grinding. I have to fight through the bad days and the heat and drove through the snowstorm to work in the unheated shop. This is because if I take one day off the company looses the ability to finish the work for that week. My business can't loose many weeks in a year. I close the week of Thanksgiving, the week of Christmas, and the week after Blade Show. I pay the staff for those weeks. But I can't afford any more weeks of lost revenue. I worked through a virus once where I threw up in my mask and dry heaved all day.

I get the last $ and the expenses and employees get everything up to there. I run a fully ligitimate out of the home licenced and insured business. There is a momentum like playing tetris on the high level. Its fun, but it is maddening. We have 42 finished this week with no duds. Woo hoo! We'd celebrate at the Roy household, but Hannah has a travelball tourney and will be playing from dawn till dusk on Sat.
 
So as a summary, what I'm hearing is do it as a hobby but don't try to make it a job. K...Back to studying 8 hours for an hour long class.
 
this thread has some absolutely great "no BS" advice and I can relate. I'm a part time maker with a (sometimes more) than full time job with a schedule that keeps me from making more than a handful of pieces a year, and they are all sold by word of mouth. I echo the remarks from a few guys in that once I retire from my real job, I am going to take a shot at cranking out enough for a real second income on the side... with dreams of having my own real line of recognized knives that I can sell and maybe make a living at it. IMHO don't get too down Andy, of course its not an easy thing to do, but what in life worth having is?

just my 2c

P.S. I've invested $7000 into my shop this year alone and had a gross earnings of around $1300... @ about a net profit of $5 per hour of my time per piece after all the expenses, it is not neccesarily the best business plan I've ever heard of.
 
You sound almost just like I was a few years ago. It's still in my full intentions of becoming a professional eventually-but for now, I'm taking a different approach to that goal with small, quick to make leather items.

What I can tell you is that the entire concept of 'make your own hours, be your own boss' is a complete lie. "Chose which 12-15hrs you want to work' is more accurate as you will be needing to pull hours like that every day, with no vactions, no sick off, no holidays, etc. Your boss will be the market itself.

I have only glanced through these posts-so not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but you have to include business licenses, fees etc into startup as well. Atleast in my area-one can not legally sell on a for profit basis if they don't have a seller's permit. For me..that is $500, by itself.

There are also those that say that it takes about a decade of selling to just begin establishing some recognition in the market, but just one bad knife released to the public can ruin all of that effort.
 
Andy Johnston said:
So as a summary, what I'm hearing is do it as a hobby but don't try to make it a job. K...Back to studying 8 hours for an hour long class.
Click to expand...
Have you considered getting a tutor? Many college's offer free or very low cost resources to struggling students. My wife and I graduated in 2012, with three kids, believe me you can do this. I would be happy to offer some advice if you want to shoot me an email.
 
I found all these opinions and advice very interesting and wish I had this advise before I tried doing something I loved and did on the side, full time.
The fun died, the stress went up, the money improved but wasn't near what the hobby or part time status provided in ratio to time spent / profit.
It is really hard trying to make a good buck on something others do for fun/hobby/entertainment/ or on someone else's clock. That is a real killer.

Lots of life lessons can be learned very quickly in a trade/business and not all are fun or even survivable like a crippling ingury with no insurance or a lawsuite in which you will never be able to pay out just to name a few.

All that said, the joy and pride from being your own man and working for yourself is almost priceless and explains why farming, knife making, gunsmithing and some other ocupations attract such down to earth and good honest people (like most of the folks here)
Other tradesmen have to be some of my best friends, customers, and people I respect.



My 2 cents and probably not worth that.
 
Andy Johnston, In thinking about your questions, here's some thing to think about. Those who make knives full time have the self discipline to work even when they don't want to. They may get burnt out, but they still work to fill orders. You might ask yourself if you have the self discipline to do that.
I have a BA and MA degree. Some of the classes I enjoyed, and some I hated. There were some research papers I was required to do that I had little interest in, but I did them. There were things I had to learn that I didn't enjoy, there were classes I would have liked to skip, but, I had a goal which was my degrees and was willing to sacrifice to get them.
To be a successful full time knifemaker requires a lot of sacrifice and self discipline.
If you have the opportunity to finish a college degree and don't want to, do you think you are willing to make the sacrifices a full time knifemaker must make?
 
That is a really good point tom and I have thought about it a lot. I am a lot more dedicated when it comes to a job. I have had a job since I was 14 up until I moved to come to school here. Haven't been able to find a job since I moved. I love working though. Even if I've hated my job I would always be happier coming home from a job than I did coming home from after school. I am a hard worker and I love working, schools just not working for me.
 
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