Advice on knife making as a future career.

I agree with lots of advice given....making this a full time job would probably just allow you to scape by and the enjoyment would fizzle away. Get a job first, then build up and see what you think.
 
The interesting thing about this thread is that almost no one has mentioned other craft and artisan type businesses. I have met rod makers, bowyers, fly tyers, turners, oak timber framers, painters (pictures, not walls) and cabinet makers, and read about more, who say almost exactly the same things about the pay, hours, stress, and challenge of turning the hobby they loved into the business that pays the bills and the need for a retirement plan.

I briefly worked with a guy who, when I met him, was a contract CAD operator/draftsman, but who had once run a fairly successful carpentry and cabinet business. Since I am not enjoying my job now, to put it mildly, I took what chances I could to talk to this chap. His advice was contradictory, but the key points were: do it for six months and you will know if it is for you, don't expect to make any money the first year, you'll just break even the second and only start to be profitable in the third, and it was only possible for him when his wife worked, and before their first child came along!

He had engineering qualifications first, and when it was needed he went back to that as a steady income and regular hours.

All rather a downer, I know!! Haven't figured out my path yet, but I know that full time craft by itself isn't going to give me the level of security I want.

As for the degree. I work in engineering and it is hard to get a look in as a starter without one, but you don't necessarily use the content as much as you might expect. For sure though, having a degree or similar shows that you can stick at a dull, demanding task when needed, and that you have cultivated the ability to learn. Sometimes I think that that is the most important aspect, since so much more must be learned after you land a job!
 
I just spent 5K and 2 months with a marketing/business consultant to update/revamp my business strategy. Full-time knifemaking IS a viable pursuit if you do your homework upfront and have a plan. You need a working business model to track and forecast sales, cost, expenses, cash flow, etc... Our numbers and stats were very different than some who have posted in this thread. If you see obstacles, find a way around them. Don't approach a business with the mindset of a hobbyist... commit fully and fight to achieve the lifestyle you want. The market is HUGE. You have to think beyond internet forums, trade-shows, popular publications and sporting goods retailers. Our team estimated that the current United States market for custom knives is $807,400,000 annually, and that number could reasonably be extracted to add another $80,700,000 in Canada. If you can tap into even just 1% of 1% of that, it's darn close to a $100,000 potential. I think it is more than reasonable to capture more with effective marketing. The challenge then becomes production, cost of sales and profit margin. All of this is quite doable. It's not easy, but its there if you want it bad enough.
 
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I have read most of the thread but not every post. Not positive that this hasn't been addressed, but how do you know if you are capable of making knives that people want to buy? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm simply wondering if you've made knives that have received really good feedback.

What kind of knives do you plan to make? Are you going for volume or high end one-offs? I like to think that I could make knives that would sell for a couple of hundred dollars if I one day decided to try, but I know that making 30 a week like Andy Roy, or high end pieces like a JS or MS is capable of would be very very difficult.

Whatever happens, I wish you the best of luck. :)
 
Wow Rick those numbers are astounding. Gives me hope. I'm lucky in that my fiancees under grad degree is in business and marketing. She will be able to help me come up with a business plan and refine it not to mention the obvious marketing knowledge. I also plan on taking a business class or two before my days at college are over. Now I just need to work on honing my knife making skills.

Strigamort that didn't sound rude at all. I'm not sure that I could make knives that someone would want to buy, at least not at this point, but I am confident that I would eventually get there. I am good with my hands and am very dedicated to learning everything I can and getting as good as I can at something I'm interested in. My fiancee would call it obsession, and maybe it is, but at least I get obsessed with practical things. For the last few years I've been into researching Whitetail Deer management. I can guarantee you that if you asked me just about anything about how to improve your deer heard and hunting prospects I would be able to give you obscene amounts of information. I hope to be able to get to that point with knife making also.

This thread has given me a LOT to think about. Lots of things on what to do with school as well as the knife business. I cant express how much I appreciate all of the information. My plan from the beginning was to finish school, whether that be with an associates or bachelors, and get a job to pay the student loans and bills for a long time. While working I would keep at it, practicing my making and hopefully selling what I can. I read on another thread I recently saw that a passaround to other makers on the forums is a good idea and I was wondering before I had even saw that thread if that was a possibility. Once I get a few knives that I feel confident enough to get feedback I plan on doing that and then improving/moving forward from there. Thanks again for all of the info and, sometimes brutal, honesty. I appreciate it.
 
Andy Johnston said:
Strigamort that didn't sound rude at all. I'm not sure that I could make knives that someone would want to buy, at least not at this point, but I am confident that I would eventually get there. I am good with my hands and am very dedicated to learning everything I can and getting as good as I can at something I'm interested in. My fiancee would call it obsession, and maybe it is, but at least I get obsessed with practical things. For the last few years I've been into researching Whitetail Deer management. I can guarantee you that if you asked me just about anything about how to improve your deer heard and hunting prospects I would be able to give you obscene amounts of information. I hope to be able to get to that point with knife making also.

/QUOTE]

Ha that describes me to a T. :)

One thing I'd be concerned with (if you really are like me) is getting burned out. Sometimes the fire burns hot enough to be a detriment to your passion. You're a bit younger than me by the sounds of things. Just try to take it easy at least a little. I've gone around and around with many hobbies. Thankfully knives have been a constant when other things have waned.

I hope you find that your passion is lasting, and that you find success.
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C_Claycomb said:
The interesting thing about this thread is that almost no one has mentioned other craft and artisan type businesses. I have met rod makers, bowyers, fly tyers, turners, oak timber framers, painters (pictures, not walls) and cabinet makers, and read about more, who say almost exactly the same things about the pay, hours, stress, and challenge of turning the hobby they loved into the business that pays the bills and the need for a retirement plan.

I briefly worked with a guy who, when I met him, was a contract CAD operator/draftsman, but who had once run a fairly successful carpentry and cabinet business. Since I am not enjoying my job now, to put it mildly, I took what chances I could to talk to this chap. His advice was contradictory, but the key points were: do it for six months and you will know if it is for you, don't expect to make any money the first year, you'll just break even the second and only start to be profitable in the third, and it was only possible for him when his wife worked, and before their first child came along!

He had engineering qualifications first, and when it was needed he went back to that as a steady income and regular hours.

All rather a downer, I know!! Haven't figured out my path yet, but I know that full time craft by itself isn't going to give me the level of security I want.

As for the degree. I work in engineering and it is hard to get a look in as a starter without one, but you don't necessarily use the content as much as you might expect. For sure though, having a degree or similar shows that you can stick at a dull, demanding task when needed, and that you have cultivated the ability to learn. Sometimes I think that that is the most important aspect, since so much more must be learned after you land a job!
Click to expand...

I know first hand how a hobby can lose its fun when you turn it in to a business. I have played in a band, bred reptiles, and had a brief stint at custom bicycle frame building (I was smart enough to not try to make any money off of that.) Once I started looking at the business end of it, the pressure to produce and sell decreases the fun in making (or playing or breeding.) I would suggest that those that are successful business people like, or at least are good at selling and marketing. If you have a plan, pay your dues, and are good at what you do, its possible to make a living at it.

In my day job, I am the equivalent of a MS skill. With 20 years in, I make just under 100k/year. I am at the top of my field. I just took a job as the lead consultant for the central health region in Alberta, to coordinate professional development in the delivery of mental health services. You don't get to that level without paying your dues, regardless off the field. Unless I go full time as a knife maker, I will never develop the skills that guys like Wheeler and Bump have currently. There simply aren't enough years for me to develop my skills to that level. The reason I am mentioning this, is it is easy to mislead oneself to seeing the prices these guys get for their knives and think in a couple years you will get those prices too. It just isn't like that.
 
Willie71 said:
I know first hand how a hobby can lose its fun when you turn it in to a business.
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That is the heart of it. You have to realize that it is going to turn into a JOB. I thought heavily upon this and came to the conclusion that frustration is an inevitable part of working for a living and I would rather get frustrated doing what I love(and am meant to do) than doing anything else. My hobbies are things I enjoy but I can't see myself "living" everyday. Being an artisan is something I AM and I'll take what ever it throws at me.
 
Rick Marchand said:
That is the heart of it. You have to realize that it is going to turn into a JOB. I thought heavily upon this and came to the conclusion that frustration is an inevitable part of working for a living and I would rather get frustrated doing what I love(and am meant to do) than doing anything else. My hobbies are things I enjoy but I can't see myself "living" everyday. Being an artisan is something I AM and I'll take what ever it throws at me.
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I agree 100%. I don't hate my day job. I love what I do. I'm also good at it which is a bonus. I couldn't imagine being in a job every day doing something I hated. I am quite happy keeping knifemaking as a hobby, and if I sell a few to offset the cost, that's a bonus.
 
C_Claycomb said:
The interesting thing about this thread is that almost no one has mentioned other craft and artisan type businesses. I have met rod makers, bowyers, fly tyers, turners, oak timber framers, painters (pictures, not walls) and cabinet makers, and read about more, who say almost exactly the same things about the pay, hours, stress, and challenge of turning the hobby they loved into the business that pays the bills and the need for a retirement plan.

I briefly worked with a guy who, when I met him, was a contract CAD operator/draftsman, but who had once run a fairly successful carpentry and cabinet business. Since I am not enjoying my job now, to put it mildly, I took what chances I could to talk to this chap. His advice was contradictory, but the key points were: do it for six months and you will know if it is for you, don't expect to make any money the first year, you'll just break even the second and only start to be profitable in the third, and it was only possible for him when his wife worked, and before their first child came along!

He had engineering qualifications first, and when it was needed he went back to that as a steady income and regular hours.

All rather a downer, I know!! Haven't figured out my path yet, but I know that full time craft by itself isn't going to give me the level of security I want.

As for the degree. I work in engineering and it is hard to get a look in as a starter without one, but you don't necessarily use the content as much as you might expect. For sure though, having a degree or similar shows that you can stick at a dull, demanding task when needed, and that you have cultivated the ability to learn. Sometimes I think that that is the most important aspect, since so much more must be learned after you land a job!
Click to expand...

I was a self employed goldsmith for 30+ years, running a retail studio. I was there by myself an average of 60 hours a week. I took maybe 3 or 4 vacations and had the constant pressure of 'making the bills' just like the self-employed full-time makers here. The problems are all the same.

I used to practice law. Believe it or not...the same problems of the self-employed are present in the practice of law. This was in the late 70's, early 80's. Turquoise jewelry was popular and I wanted a necklace. I went to a gem and mineral show and bought enough supplies to make 3 necklaces of my design and sold the other 2 the next day at an un-godly profit. I was hooked on jewelry making, quit practicing law (which I was totally burned out on) and destined myself to take a vow of poverty. :)

Someone once told me that..."Nothing happens till something is sold.". It is the 'sold' part that almost got me. At first, I didn't know the importance of balancing inventory with sales. Too much inventory and not enough sales can lead to disaster. If you are going to make knife making your career, you had better figure out how you are going to sell them for the necessary profit to keep on going. This is where the hardest part of being self-employed (at least for me) reared it's ugly head---keeping good and current records. Business records are absolutely necessary to evaluate your past performance and plot your future growth.

I was probably 'burnt' out on making jewelry the last 10 years of operation. My creativity was shot. I didn't even want to design another piece or repair another article. So, I decided to try and learn how to make knives. My creativity is coming back and I feel the joy of making something to the best of my ability. And...I never plan on selling a knife.
 
I had thought from the beginning that you cant treat it like a hobby once its your main source of income because then it IS a job and you have to treat it as such.
 
Production is the meat and potatoes of a business, diversity is the dessert. I was self-employed for 9 years recycling metal. I did not make any real money until I researched and became knowledgeable about glass, cardboard, plastics. As soon as I diversified my knowledge with more than one marketable item, the money started rolling in. That diversity kept me afloat two years after the market crash for metal, because the other recyclables stayed fairly constant in price.

Start slowly, and don't do ANYTHING that doesn't triple your money. Buy some good quality, relatively inexpensive knives, and add handle scales, gimping, acid etch, forced patina, or whatever people in your local area like. Sell them to your friends at a very comfortable profit. It is far cheaper to do that than buy raw materials and make knives from the ground up initially, and requires far fewer tools. I have used that method to pay my bills and slowly build skills and equipment. People like unique items, and now that I have some credibility among my friends and family, word spreads and I get calls now about cleaning up an old Ka-Bar, or a new handle on an old knife. Be honest and timely, value your time and the end result accordingly. I won't do anything that won't at least triple my investment.

Watch the successful youtubers like Trollsky, Gavko, Aaron Gough, 3 River Blades, etc. They have invaluable tutorials, plus you can see in their early vids how little equipment they had. Unless you plan on being in perma-debt, or have lots of extra cash, start small. As few tools as possible.

My point is, there are many things you can do to make extra money while you learn, and if taken slowly, your extra time can pay for your future tooling. Oh...and plan on ending up with many knives that didn't turn out quite right. Don't get discouraged by it. I've effed up more "simple fixes" than I can count by being in a hurry.
 
Might also be useful to learn the fine art of barter. At some point, being willing to trade a knife for supplies or tools to make more knives might make sense. Sometimes when you take cash out of the equation you get a better deal.
 
Andy,

You've gotten some excellent advice. The problem with answering a question like this is that it is very subjective. This is a very difficult business to get started in. If you say, "Tomorrow I'm going to be a full time maker." then the odds are stacked against you doing it. If you start gradually then at some point it will become apparent that you are making enough on your knives to do this full time.

I would set the primary goals:

1) build & pay for your shop & tools
2) keep improving your skills (including taking classes)
3) put in the time & exposure at shows, hammer-ins, forums, etc. to become known in the knife world

All my best,
Gary Mulkey
 
tryppyr said:
Might also be useful to learn the fine art of barter. At some point, being willing to trade a knife for supplies or tools to make more knives might make sense. Sometimes when you take cash out of the equation you get a better deal.
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Amen Brother !!! W/O trading, life would be much tougher for me.
 
Lots and lots of great stuff here, from those who've been there done that.
I keep thinking of something- somewhere there's a forum where a young guy is saying, "Wow, I have a strong desire to be a doctor!" (..engineer, arborist, electrician, archaeologist)
He's getting some replies like, "You can't just assume you're going to pick up a scalpel and start cutting on people!" Uh, well yeah.
The point is, rarely is anything like that simple, cheap, or easy.
There's the whole "rule of ten thousand hours-" you don't get to journeyman level in much of anything without ten thousand hours of practice, and some of that needs to be with teams and mentors.
The world is full of people who think that working with your hands is somehow a snap compared to office work, but those of us who have mastered a trade or two know different. Since we've lost touch to some extent with the whole apprenticeship system, it's not assumed that it takes five years of supervised full time work to get on top of the skills.
As long as you expect to do that kind of groundwork, there's a very good chance of doing well, and at the end you have a story to tell, and to some extent it's all about the story with handmade goods.
 
My meeting with my adviser today went about as well as I expected. 2.5 years minimum for a bachelors. I came home and looked at more options and discovered that the school as a certificate program and also an associates in CNC operation. Im wondering if any of you are currently doing this as a job that could tell me a little bit about what those jobs entail and what could be expected as far as pay, hours, or anything else that you could tell me. Thanks again for all the help.
 
I figured I'd weigh in again as I have thought about this question as regards to myself.

I have thought about this for a couple of years and while I have the knowledge to become a good knifemaker I have not developed the skills. I have gotten to the point of novice cutler. I have noted some things that I would need to do to make money as a beginning knifemaker if I chose to cultivate my skills.

I would need to make knives across a wide range. $35 railroad spike letter openers, $60 basic camp knives and kitchen knives, up to $200 and up hunting knives with guards and bolsters and fancy scales. One maker commented that many criticized his RR spike knives, but he sold enough of them to pay for the trips to the shows he attended.

I would need to go beyond knifemaking. I would need to provide other goods. Whether it be parts to a survival kit, garden implements, barbeque implements, wood stove implements, art, and etc.

I would need to develop skills as a blacksmith. Stock removal is OK but I would need the skills to provide the other goods as well. Let's face it, stock removal makes a poor RR spike knife. I'd need to get a power hammer.

I would need to make myself seen. Frank Richtig was a blacksmith who made knives. At shows he would shave paper with one of his blanks. He would then chop up a RR spike or some bolts or a buggy axel with the knife and go back to shaving paper with it. And no I will not reveal Franks HT secrets.

I would need to learn the bussiness as well.

At any rate I have chosen to keep my $20+/hr job with 80% of my health and dental care provide and the good possibility of extra retirement income instead.
 
Andy- you have taken a very big leap- and its cool to say you are listening and thinking along the way! I will be a parrot and second what is already being said- "A lot of good info here"

Rick mentioned his meeting with the consultant, others have tossed numbers- their situations are not yours... You have the same beginnings of every person here- and potentially the ability... but their paths are all different from yours.

There are several really good avenues of the trades, the traditional degree and so on being discussed- even you have said you don't want a lot of money... You are spot on that you don't want money- you want peace and happiness. And Money doesn't buy happiness...

But it does buy security and opportunity, peace of mind when you are out of work/injured, or the ability to take care of someone after you are gone.

Maps are made by people who have gone before you- but the path you face is your own... the choice is yours. I can only tell you what choices I made, just like anyone else about their decisions for themselves... but I can urge and hope you do a few basic things:

1-Read 3 books-
"Shopclass as soulcraft"
"How to think like Leonardo da Vinci" (and do the exercises with your fiancé and honestly explore yourself)
"The Cashflow Quadrant" (this book will alter your thoughts on how work versus money achieves goals)
2-do a life exercise: download the "Business plan template" from the score.org website and read/do it for ANY self employment venture you are thinking of- and being honest with yourself it is a sobering exercise...

I have a side business- and a full-time job at 48-56 hours a week with rotating shifts. I do not have a 4 year degree- I also have a hobby that is involved in metalworking (that includes knives)... I enjoy my time and my family- and I committed a long time ago to having multiple income sources. That commitment and the education and fellowship you will find in this forum and in other places is a very supportive place- but brutally honest and open. No one wants to see you repeat their mistakes- and you wont repeat theirs- they will be your mistakes in your history... plan ahead so you do not have to look back and regret.

Im just a guy who hasn't sold a knife, but has enjoyed the journey making family and friends things that are already being handed down to the next generation.

Kerri
 
sc_bane said:
Production is the meat and potatoes of a business, diversity is the dessert. I was self-employed for 9 years recycling metal. I did not make any real money until I researched and became knowledgeable about glass, cardboard, plastics. As soon as I diversified my knowledge with more than one marketable item, the money started rolling in. That diversity kept me afloat two years after the market crash for metal, because the other recyclables stayed fairly constant in price.
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Diversity is always a good idea. Look how much Google has it's hands in.

I'm not a maker and probably never will be so take this for what it's worth
I was thinking about how many related steel products there are. After all, a knifemaker has the ability to make things from steel.

How about letter openers (yes, they do still exist)?
Some makers already make kitchen knives, but how about sets of forks and spoons (they would be a little more work)?
Some people collect spoons as souvenirs when they travel. Maybe they could be introduced to handmade collectible spoons.
What about a nutcracker and nut picks? These would make great gift packs.

I think if you use your imagination you could come up with many products that might provide additional income from non-knife people.
 
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