AFCK? AFCK? Enough already!

Joined
Nov 14, 1998
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I know this will enrage the AFCK followers , but doesn't anyone realize there are better knives out there? Does anyone agree with me that they look like every other Spyderco out there? Thumb hole?! Yeah, those sort of work. C'mon already, there should be a forum set aside for these things. Of course this is all opinion anyway but I fully expect a barrage of response from the flock of loyalists. I have handled the AFCK many times, but never bought one. For starters, it's ugly. Plus, I don't care what steel the blade is, there's not much "advanced" to it at all. Every time I browse around a forum it's AFCK this or AFCK that. Geez! Was Les giving these away? Must have because I can't imagine who would want one. How is it that they are so popular? I hope everyone is aware that there are other knives out there that employ better materials and look way cooler. What's your take? Let me know what you carry... no AFCK's! (By the way, an Emerson Raven is my toy of choice this month)
 
Joined
Oct 15, 1998
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39
Actually, clip point, I carry an AFCK, and I am sure many others do too. The model I carry is the left handed mini. I like it very much. My only quirk is that it needs a plain edge.
I am not a serrated edge fan.

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Chris Hannon
cannon@kansas.net
 
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Oct 3, 1998
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I think you truly don't understand the allure of the AFCK. It may not be the knife to end all knives, but it's an great performing knife at its price point. You've said that there are knives out there that employ better materials and look way cooler. Well, the look part is completely subjective, so let's throw that out. Employ better materials? Titanium liners, G-10, and you can get an M-2 blade or a SUPERBLY heat-treated ATS-34 one. Do you really want to compare your Raven's ATS-34 to M-2 and the Raven's plastic handles to the AFCK's titanium-lined G-10? Not to mention the price point difference, and the locking problems we've heard about on the Raven. The Raven is a comfy knife, and a good one, but the AFCK is better and at a significantly lower price point.

The AFCK is a knife that performs extremely well at a reasonable price, and that's the bottom line, not how cool it looks (though I tell you, I think it looks damn cool). Don't think the blade is "advanced"? Okay, the advanced thing is silly, but it is a great blade; try doing some penetration and slicing tests versus your Raven, then see whether your judgement might have been a bit misinformed.

There are other excellent knives out there (e.g., EDI Genesis) but it really may be worth your time to figure out why the AFCK is so popular. Maybe, just maybe, the rest of us are onto something that you haven't figured out yet.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
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Oct 4, 1998
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Benchmade AFCK doesn't have a lot of "wow" factor, because they are sooo common, but I have to concede that is is the BEST ALL AROUND 75-80 dollar folder out there. They hold an edge and take a beating. Now only if Benchmade would listen to their customes and offer plain edge BT2 blades.

I have to say, better than a raven, IMHO, hands down. Lets see, synthetic scales, Vs, full titanium combined with G10. Not to knock Emerson, who got it together with the production Commanders, but the Raven is not in the same class.

Don't let the elitists around the forum, and I am as guilty as anybody
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, knock a good production design down. Yea it's a Benchmade, but is more knife than most people will ever need or use, for a fair price.
 

SB

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Oct 4, 1998
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637
Come on gang, let's crucify this blasphemous heretic!!!

Just kidding! HEHEHE!

Can I offer a three-part answer as to why I think there seems to be an AFCK epidemic?

1. Is it possible that the AFCK is in caps, and therefore, and tends to stick out? Perhaps, if everyone all wrote with caps lock on, this may not be a problem.

2. If you think the AFCK is bad, don't even get me started with the Sebenza. Yeah, the Sebenza is a great knife and deserves the public enthusiasm, but IMO, the AFCK doesn't even get mentioned half as much as this knife does.

3. The AFCK really is a good knife for its price range. I could go ON and ON about about the many ways that this knife was done right. In fact, you know what? I will. Not to irk you of anything, but perhaps to shed some light as to why I think the AFCK is one of the finest production folders out there.

Before I begin, however, please bear in mind that the acronym AFCK stands for Advanced Folding Combat Knife. Therefore, I will focus strictly on the "combative" features of the knife.

[Disclaimer: The following only refers to the large AFCK, as Chris Caracci originally designed it, and not the "bastardized" mini that Benchmade made.]

a) Blade length. Just a hair below 4 inches. Generally speaking, the largest legal blade length allowed. The more blade to work with, the deeper your cuts will generally be. Also, this makes it easier to flick the knife open.

b) False edge. This makes stabbing easier, while still making it legal in many states and municipalities that considers double edges as illegal.

c) Curved belly. For slicing, curved bellies are practically a must. And slicing is practically the keystone to defensive work and even offensive work with a knife.

d) Serration. Oh yeah, if you ask me, BM serrations are serrations done right. They're rounded such that they won't dull easily or bend through hard use, but aggressive enough to get the job done. Plus, the combo serrations is a good compromise in getting through materials of varying toughness. (A more aggressive edge might seem to work better, but remember, this is a tactical folder intended for rough use.)

As a side note, AFCK have many different variations (plain-edge, combo-edge, full serration), I personally still prefer the combo edge. Out in the field, I have found uses for both and again, the blade is big enough to accomodate both. Joe Talmadge made a really good point about making a plain-edge rough, but nearest I can tell, both are equally good at getting the job done. So, whatever floats your fancy.

e) Aggressive blade profile. As far as I can tell, the AFCK's a flat grind. That's good. IMHO, it's the perfect compromise between blade strength and good cutting abilities. Personally, I've never heard of anyone complain the blade being weak, except for the tip, which I agree would be nice if they made it stronger.

f) Spyderco hole. I like the spyderco hole. And because of this preference, this is part of the reason why I like the AFCK so much. The hole, however, is done right where I can get a really good grip with my thumb for a secure opening even in stress.

g) Blade coating. The one I own is coated with Black-Ti. Incredible stuff. About the toughest coating I've ever came across. No personal experience with their newer coating though. BT2 is it?

h) Adjustable tension screw. I think every tactical folder should be made such that the user can adjust the tension level to the user's preference. Without it, you might not be able to pull off good, consistent speed openings.

i) G-10 Scales. For handles, I think this material is just about perfect. Better than any Zytel, Kraton, or Micarta that I've ever handled. It's strong, almost impervous to harmful chemicals, and doesn't slip as much as other materials.

j) Titanium liners. TWO of them. Yeah, I know. Some people think that's overkill. Well, I LIKE overkill. You'll never hear anybody complain that the AFCK's handle isn't strong enough. And when it comes to combatives, that's just fine by me.

k) Linerlock. I know, we've had quite a bit of controversy over this, but let's face it. Until something better comes along, a properly-executed linerlock is argueably the best game in town.

l) Scalloped finger groove. Oh yeah, this seemingly subtle and unassuming feature is perhaps the greatest asset to the knife. This is what allows the AFCK to be able to deliver effective, powerful thrusts, regardless of hand size and dimension.

m) Grooved thumb ramp. Another feature I think is done right. Indexes your thumb, but not having a top guard means the top part of your hand can slip off a bit rather than have it break your grip. And if you don't use it, it's not obtrusive at all so it won't even be a problem.

n) Laynard hole. Another feature that is great to have, is totally unobtrusive, so if you don't use it, it not a problem. But, if you do use it, it could save your life!

o) A pointy pommel. Many circles of knife fighting believe in having a pointy pommel to strike with. You can also do some very limited trapping with it. And again, if you don't use it, it's not a problem. Personally, I use them, and I believe in having as many options open to me as possible.

p) Inherent downward design curve. I'm one of those people that prefers my blade to be pointing downward. Thanks to the downward slope of the blade and the scalloped finger groove, this subtle effect is achieved, enhancing not only stabbing, keeping a blade open, and blade turning, but better blade indexing and lessen the strain on your wrist.

q) Last but not least, ALL of this comes in at a very affordable price range. I think you'll be very hard-pressed to find an equally good knife for the same price.

It's true that I think there are better knives out there than this one. For example, for twice the price, the Emerson Commander gets my vote. I would love to get one of the prototypes with the Spydie hole. And for the cream of the crop, the Kasper Fighting Folder gets my vote there. But there's just one last thing to consider for a fighting tool: Expendablility. You might lose your knife during combat, or you can lose it when the police confiscate it as court evidence. And getting it back might cost more than just getting a new one. In short, don't be surprised if you never see your knife again. Therefore, I select tools that are up to the task, but I also don't mind losing. And lo and behold, the AFCK come through yet again.

-> $.02 <-

[This message has been edited by SB (edited 11-15-98).]
 
Joined
Oct 27, 1998
Messages
171
I think we have a topic! I'm on my way to purchasing a mini AFCK blk ti pln, I found your opinions very useful. I already think the knife looks cool(never handling one) and at the price how bad could it be! I'm big thumb stud fan,infact I've pretty much mastered it even of the big boys. The rip off Spyderco thumb hole will get some getting use to, but quick deployment is nothing more than a way to impress your nonknife friends. It sounds like a nice knife, I already know Benchmade makes a quality product. My Specwars don't make it out of my display. By the way I'll be at the S. FL Gun & Knife Show in the am, just to see how much higher their prices are than the generous knife dealers on the net. I'll let you know. By the way I yet to own a Spyderco.

 

I like a little controversy myself, gueesing you alos play devil's advocate from time to time. Its my blade of choice for all the reasons mentioned. It was also one of the first "high-tech" knives. Its only demerit to some are its looks when closed. But the handl's looks are worth it for that great grip. Buy the large one, preferably in M-2.
 

I like a little controversy myself, gueesing you alos play devil's advocate from time to time. Its my blade of choice for all the reasons mentioned. It was also one of the first "high-tech" knives. Its only demerit to some are its looks when closed. But the handl's looks are worth it for that great grip. Buy the large one, preferably in M-2.
 

Chief

Chief Master Sergeant USAF (ret) 1975-2000
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Nov 15, 1998
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SB -- 100% right on target! AFCKs are the best all around knife for the money. However, owning two Benchmades with the BT2 coating, in my opinion, it sucks in stereo. Comes off far too easily and Benchmades answer to that problem "even when worn off provides corrosion protection". Maybe so, but it looks bad when the shiny part is coming through the BT2. I feel the Spydie hole is much easier to use than thumbstuds. I prefer the full size as the hole on the mini is too small. YMMV
 
Joined
Nov 14, 1998
Messages
213
While I continue to be impressed by the voracity of your responses, I refuse to change my opinion. Dare I not own an AFCK? I do own other BM's, and I like them just fine. I think whoever mentioned the point about AFCK being in caps is right on the money- it does tend to stand out. I think you need to also understand that I may be carrying the Raven now, however, I wouldn't say it's the absolute best. Nor did I. "Crucify this heretic"? Please- go to the Benchmade forum and swap stories about your darling AFCK. Oh, and G-10 does crack and splinter if pushed. I know, so will alot of other materials at some point, but it's incorrect to describe it as indestructible. I'm glad to see all of you like your afcks so much- but I am disappointed no one can think of any knife they like better. And DO NOT send me any more hate e-mails. Jeez- it's just a hobby- I won't mention any names, but you need to get a life. Oh- and just because you say I might be missing out doesn't make me want to run out and buy one. I wouldn't jump off a building if you did, either. I stand my ground- battered verbally and apparently alone in my conviction. We'll see what happens when the Axis lock makes it way into the sweaty palms of us all. AFC...what???
 

Spark

HPIC - Hatas gonna Hate
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clip point, part of having an opinion is realizing that others have opinions as well, right?
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Anyhow, I don't own an AFCK myself, and have only handled one briefly, but overall I think that it's pretty nice, especially for the price.

Sure, there are better knives out there, there always are. But, there are a lot of AFCK followers who prefer it over the others, and that's the key to it: It's personal preference.

If you don't like the AFCK, or the Sebenza, or the ATAK, or whatever other knife has a large, vociferous following, then don't get it; buy something you like instead.

If you are getting hate mails as a result of this thread, contact me via email, ok?

In the meantime, let's get back to the discussion of knives!
wink.gif


------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Joined
Nov 14, 1998
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213
Okay, okay. I retract my inflammatory views, and promise to really try to think of the AFCK as a nice piece. If all of you are willing to steadfastly defend this knife- I may give it another look. So thanks for your opinions, too.

If anyone would like to- could you please post any other info on the AFCK (other than the usual specs) like any kind of history or design inspiration? I would like to know more about it. Maybe I can finally "truly understand the allure" as one mentioned.

Maybe I'll be convinced- and oh yeah- the Raven does have dual Ti liners.
smile.gif



 
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Oct 3, 1998
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I guess the best answer for the AFCK is that it works...Contrary to very popular belief, Caracci had very little to do with the AFCK, as it was primarily designed by ex-BM'r Mark McWillis...I have a mini and a large combo-edge, coated, and I have to say the old Black-T has faired better then the new BT2 stuff...(when compared to a friend's BT2 coated AFCK)...

--dan
 
Joined
Oct 14, 1998
Messages
89
Ok, I like the AFCK. It's not a bad knife, and from a combatives standpoint, it's fairly outstanding, but I no longer have mine. Yes, it was another casualty of BM's quality control problems, and the first BM I've ever gotten rid of due to quality (or lack thereof). I spent approximately six months trying to find the exact model I wanted: a lefty, combo-edge, BT2. And not three months after I finally obtained it, it started rubbing the liner, to the point where it was difficult to open left-handed. I would have sent it back, and I'm sure BM would have made things right, so don't think I'm slamming them, but I was offered an attractive trade before I got around to it. As it stands, life after the AFCK is not unbearable. I'm simply waiting for something better to come along, and yes, someday I will break down and buy a Sebenza
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But for now, I'd prefer something under $200, something left-handed that is. Although you I'm not a south-paw, I appreciate the value of having something for weak-side carry, and therefore all of you leftys have my full support
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Regards--Shades
 

SB

Joined
Oct 4, 1998
Messages
637
The AFCK is not a religion I subscribe to. In fact, last I checked, I was agnostic. I didn't decide to wake up one day and like a particular kind of knife. It was just a matter of finding the tools that fit my needs. And for that matter, I don't care to change other people's minds. All I do is speak my peace. What you do beyond that is your business. And if the AFCK is not a "good" knife, then I want to know about it. After all, I'd rather have people tell me what's wrong rather than finding out the hard way. And if you're right, I'll switch. Finally, let's relax and take it easy. I know I can seem intense sometimes, but really, there are no problems as far as I'm concerned.
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[This message has been edited by SB (edited 11-16-98).]
 
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Oct 20, 1998
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301
Clip Point

There is an alternative to the ugly one. I have used the BM Panther Weehawk for a while now and it looks so much better than the afck and its blade geometry is great not to mention its overall function and feel. Yes, I know it's G-2 steel and not ATS-34 and i havent used it so hard but I think it will serve me for many years.

Henrik

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Tea drinker and hellraiser from Northern Sweden, above the arctic circle.


 
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Nov 13, 1998
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clip point

You asked about the AFCK's HISTORY. I have a few quotations stored in my 'My Knives' file.

Mark McWillis 2.2.1998 10:34:44 at Benchmade's www-board: "Chris had a idea of what he wanted. I designed the knife and sent him a sample. The changes he made were to open up the finger groove and add more curvature to the handle. I have always given Chris credit for making the knife what it is." And 24.4.1998 11:42 on RDK Main Forum: "What he [Chris] had was an idea, not a design. When he first approached us we were not able to do anything with the idea. A couple of years later I designed the original version of the AFCK. We sent Chris a drawing of the knife and he suggested some changes. We then made several, different, prototypes. Once the materials and lock design were finalized we sent Chris a prototype and he suggested some more changes. Most of the changes he suggested we did make."

I also have a few pages of other information, experiences etc. of the knife, but they are in part personal and come in part from current "regulars" on these forums, such as Steve Harvey, Hilton Yam, and Joe Talmadge.

I don't *like* the AFCK very much, but I *value* it immensely as it is.

Markku

 
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Nov 13, 1998
Messages
153
SB

Thanks for an excellent analysis of the AFCK's features. I'll add some of your points to my own 'My Knives' file!

And as you said: "if the AFCK is not a 'good' knife, then I want to know about it. After all, I'd rather have people tell me what's wrong rather than finding out the hard way. And if you're right, I'll switch."

It's nice to like/value things for perfectly good, well tried-out reasons. Nothing much to fear then (such as new information revealing something nasty). Perhaps we shouldn't *love* knives? Or at least no particular knife?

Markku

 
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Oct 3, 1998
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Clip --

The appeal of the AFCK, for me, is 100% in its performance, not in its history, pedigree, or anything else. I don't really care who designed a knife -- I've seen too many big names design bad knives to really care about this. If you can't just look at the design and tell in advance it should perform well, you may be stuck having to carry one in order to really see the performance.

On the other hand, there's plenty of other great knives out there. Your "me against the AFCK zealots" strawman is getting a bit tiresome -- no one is worshipping the AFCK, just pointing out to you that you've missed some important points in your casual dismissal of this knife. But there's plenty of other great ones, why not start a thread asking about non-AFCK tacticals (in a less inflammatory way)?

BTW, I agree with you on the Axis, I can't wait 'til it gets here! Of course, I have a different reason than you -- I don't have a particular problem with the AFCK, rather I just hate the liner lock in general, and so a new innovative lock is the main appeal to me. Benchmade may very well offer an axis-lock AFCK eventually. Wait'll that happens, then you'll see some really happy AFCK fans!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

 
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