After Sale Lounge

[Nathan the Machinist]

You might not be as bummed if he stopped pre-sales if the regular sales were fair and everyone had an equal chance of winning. When the fast guys always win, everyone should understand it's a biased, unfair contest. I have a professional designation where ethics is heavily stressed and violations are enforced. Requiring full payment upfront a year before the expected delivery date seems unethical, especially when sales of the same product are ongoing. I could see a deposit of 20, 25% as reasonable, but 100? One only has to look at the Survive Knives scandal to know 100% pre-payment way in advance is a bad idea. CPK pockets $90k upfront on this pre-sale. The fact that he's "upfront" about it doesn't make it okay. I like knives and I'm bummed I won't get an EDC. When I see something is unfair, I speak my opinion. Anyway, I appreciate your comments.

This is a machine shop that started making knives. We don't do well with a lot of additional complexity.

I don't particularly want to do pre-orders. I can sell every knife I make, I could simply just make and sell knives, a pre-order does not benefit me in any way. I offer this as a courtesy for folks who have requested it as an option to get what they want, any way they want it, with low stress.

I am not set up to take deposits and go trying to find people to get the remaining balance. We have done that, and sometimes we still do that, but it's not necessary or practical for this little knife. When I was a small maker and doing 10 knives at a time, it was workable, but it's too much for me to manage now.

To reiterate, I absolutely do not need or want to do pre-orders, this is something that I do as a courtesy to accommodate the folks who want it. I am not one of those folks.

In order for this to work, I need to keep it as simple as possible. You tell me what you want, you give me your money, we make it and send it to you. Period. Doesn't get much more simple than that.

Is this unethical? I honestly don't know. I thought I was doing okay until you said something about it. But this is a way that I'm able to accommodate what folks want without making it needlessly complicated for a dunn machinist to keep up with.

We are actually a pretty lean operation. There are tons of people who say "we don't cut any corners, we spare no expense, everything is top of the line blah blah blah". The reality is we're having the steel made to our specifications, rolled to our specifications, our heat treat is far more complex and expensive than most, everything we're doing is expensive. Our work is expensive because there is no effort to make it cheaply, we're trying to do our best work. There is not a ton of fluff here, you're buying directly from the manufacturer, not a dealer with a markup. There's not room in the overhead to accommodate a complex system. Poor Jo is scrambling and stressed out dealing with our current size by herself the way it is. I need to keep things simple.

We kept this pre-order simple, omitting some of the more complex options, for this reason.

We are not a large sophisticated outfit. I'm trying to offer people good bang for the buck. I think, perhaps your biggest gripe with me boils down to the fact that we are not a large corporation with sophisticated bookkeeping and administrative people to keep up with the model that you think we should have. But that's just not who we are man. We're small group of dedicated machinists and knife makers producing the best knives of their kind anywhere. And a way for me to accommodate the folks who want to be put on a list is the way that I'm doing it. What would you have me do differently?

 

[surfkiev]

Sorry to everyone if I implied otherwise, I think Nathan is an honorable and thoughtful guy.

 

[madcap_magician]

You might not be as bummed if he stopped pre-sales if the regular sales were fair and everyone had an equal chance of winning. When the fast guys always win, everyone should understand it's a biased, unfair contest. I have a professional designation where ethics is heavily stressed and violations are enforced. Requiring full payment upfront a year before the expected delivery date seems unethical, especially when sales of the same product are ongoing. I could see a deposit of 20, 25% as reasonable, but 100? One only has to look at the Survive Knives scandal to know 100% pre-payment way in advance is a bad idea. CPK pockets $90k upfront on this pre-sale. The fact that he's "upfront" about it doesn't make it okay. I like knives and I'm bummed I won't get an EDC. When I see something is unfair, I speak my opinion. Anyway, I appreciate your comments.

You are not wrong about preorders, and Nathan himself says so. However, he has earned my trust about them, as someone whose first preorder was in 2019, they have always been fulfilled, and he is more accurate than most in estimating delivery timeframes.

Taking or paying 100% deposits is unwise, but not unethical... Failing to deliver on paid orders would be unethical, and Nathan hasn't done that, and he will refund you if he's unable to make your knife. And the level of foolishness is mitigated by his lengthy history of fulfilling preorders reliably. He is the only maker I trust this much, but I can understand if you don't, since you haven't been a customer for years and seen how it plays out.

 

[beeinak]

You might not be as bummed if he stopped pre-sales if the regular sales were fair and everyone had an equal chance of winning. When the fast guys always win, everyone should understand it's a biased, unfair contest. I have a professional designation where ethics is heavily stressed and violations are enforced. Requiring full payment upfront a year before the expected delivery date seems unethical, especially when sales of the same product are ongoing. I could see a deposit of 20, 25% as reasonable, but 100? One only has to look at the Survive Knives scandal to know 100% pre-payment way in advance is a bad idea. CPK pockets $90k upfront on this pre-sale. The fact that he's "upfront" about it doesn't make it okay. I like knives and I'm bummed I won't get an EDC. When I see something is unfair, I speak my opinion. Anyway, I appreciate your comments.

You are delusional in comparing CPK with Guy! CPK is a phenomenal company with honor and ethics. Nathan is very strong in discouraging folks from pre-orders. If you took the time from complaining, and actually read his previous posts about it, you would see that. He is upfront about timeframes.

I am not a computer guy, and have passed on some Friday sales as I know I would not be fast enough. I was in the #80’s recently.

Today I used my cell phone and was post #19 for the pre-order.

The CPK community is actually very generous. Some sell or trade to each other, and I have had members here generously reach out to be proxy-buyers for me. If you had taken part in some of the threads and gotten to be known, I am sure someone would have offered to help you in the ‘proxy wanted’ area. There is also a WTB section that some members are willing to part with blades.

Not to be rude, but complaining that things aren’t fair simply because you didn’t get your way is not a good look, and personally I hope you decide this isn’t a place to hang out.

 

[yoko]

I think 100% deposit is excessive and unnecessary from a business point of view, change my mind.

He's had a lot of happy people through pre orders

I'm one of them along with many many others

 

[JohnBarleycorn]

There are those that surface from time to time on this forum that seem to feel that it is Nathan's responsibility to see that CPK knives are "equitably distributed" or some-such nonsense. Nathan's responsibility, first and foremost, is to the production and sale of a product that lives up to the reputation he has built over the years as a designer and knifemaker. To repeat for emphasis: Nathan's responsibility is to produce and sell quality knives.

He doesn't need to care who buys his knives, or if certain members have more success than others, but to his great credit he wants to make them available to as many people as he can, in the best way he can. It is an affront to his willingness to conduct pre-sales, despite the extra headaches, concerns, and difficulties it creates for him, to have someone step in and claim unfair and unethical because they don't like the terms associated with the pre-sale. It is really simple: if you don't like the terms, don't participate. Don't vilify the method because you don't like it. As I write this around 170 people seem to be fine with it. One doesn't. The same one that complained because he/she/it was/were too slow to succeed in the normal sale, that successfully placed in the pre-sale, but instead of just placing an order decided that this was the time and place to attack the clearly posted conditions of the sale.

Sort of reminds me of a screaming toddler I saw the other day having a melt-down in the donut shop because what he wanted was sold out, and refusing to be mollified by assurances that a fresh batch was almost ready. But understandable for a toddler. For an adult?

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I think 100% deposit is excessive and unnecessary from a business point of view, change my mind.

You're a group of people busy making knives accommodating folks who want to be put on a list

Hundreds and hundreds of people

What do you want me to do differently, that I'm able to accommodate?

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Have you ever tried to keep lists?

 

[Jsega51]

The same one that complained because he/she/it was/were too slow to succeed in the normal sale, that successfully placed in the pre-sale, but instead of just placing an order decided that this was the time and place to attack the clearly posted conditions of the sale.

Pre-order is still open, I told them a while ago to edit their post with what they wanted, now apparently they don’t want it? Aurora borealis is having an effect on some lol

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Of hundreds and hundreds of people?

 

[ferider]

I think 100% deposit is excessive and unnecessary from a business point of view, change my mind.

Then just walk away. After your 6th post arguing about this, I doubt you want to change your mind:

It’s ethical because Nathan and CPK are. With the current inflation, it’s actually an investment.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Pre-orders are terrible. People shouldn't do it. I agree with that. But we do it because our customers want us to do it and I want my customers to be happy. I try to accommodate reasonable requests.

It is unreasonable, however, for you to expect me to significantly change my business structure and business model to accommodate you.

 

[Blues]

I think 100% deposit is excessive and unnecessary from a business point of view, change my mind.

Nothing wrong with that sentence. My issue was with your using the term "unethical" in regard to these folks...even suggesting it. I couldn't have been more plain.

If Nathan ever wants me to run a random number generator to determine the order of folks who will be selected to have their orders fulfilled, I'd be only too happy to do so...

...But do I trust them to do the right thing? And would I trust them with my money? Yes and yes. And I have a pretty jaded opinion of many based upon a career tracking down ne'er-do-wells and sending them to the Graybar Hotel for their misdeeds.

 

[bluemax_1]

I think 100% deposit is excessive and unnecessary from a business point of view, change my mind.

And you’re more than welcome to sit out the preorders. Is anyone sitting next to you with a gun to your head?

Don’t like it, don’t participate.

Seems fairly simple.

Unethical would be a maker NOT clearly stating everything up front the way Nathan does. He clearly states that he doesn’t like doing preorders, but does them because his clientele wants them.

He clearly states that it’s 100% payment up front, then gives a timeline for delivery, and that if someone’s uncomfortable with that, they shouldn’t participate, so why the whining after the fact?

 

[Hatchet_Jack]

Pre-orders are terrible. People shouldn't do it. I agree with that. But we do it because our customers want us to do it and I want my customers to be happy. I try to accommodate reasonable requests.

It is unreasonable, however, for you to expect me to significantly change my business structure and business model to accommodate you.

I don’t think I’ve ever had a crack at someone on this forum, at least not intentionally and I don’t want this fulla to be the one that makes me start.

All I would say as someone new to this group, the chats I’ve had with you lead me to the conclusion that you’re nothing but fair and honest.

I get the impression this guys version of fair is one where he gets a knife and to hell with everyone else.

As for the pre-orders, I did not expect to get in on the sale (bloody fluke) and I was happy to pay up front knowing I’d be maybe waiting 12 months. I ordered a custom flintlock rifle that was meant to take a year, currently about 20 months and no sign of it. Quality things take time.

I know they’re a PIA but as a customer of future pre sales I say

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I think the most unethical thing about my pre-orders is that it sets a precedent and people who aren't me will see this as an acceptable model when, for most people it really is not.

That sounds like I'm really full of myself, but the reality is I was a manufacturing concern before I started producing knives here and I have a machine shop with three fully automatic grinders, 7 CNC machining centers, tumblers, saws and a ton of other stuff used in the production of our work that is fully paid for and 100% my property. I'm not using pre-order money to grow or tend a loan, I'm using pre-order money to make the knives. Other than the mortgage on my house, I am 100% debt-free right now.

I'm in a position to be able to do this safely where most makers are not. It is hypocrisy for me to say "it's okay when I do it but not okay when you do it." But I guess I'm okay with the hypocrisy and you're not, which is understandable.

Guy and I are not the same. He got in over his head and didn't know the way out. Honestly I don't think there was a way out. I have far more manufacturing experience and capacity than any other custom knife maker that I know of selling knives here. So when I do something that someone else should not do, it does set a precedent which is probably not good. But the alternative is to employ a model that runs contrary to my best interests. Why would I do that?

 

[91bravo]

I see that Carothers is keeping it all classy up in here as usual. Most folks buy Carothers because they are considered friends, both here and in real life. Skilled, trustworthy, and engaged with their fan base here, is a pretty solid reputation. I’d buy a CPK with money up front, any day of the week.

 

[clinton1]

I appreciate this preorder Nathan, Jo, and the CPK crew!! You are all the best!

The EDC is the original knife that drew me to CPK, so this preorder carries extra weight.

I know that it's alot of extra, unnecessary, unneeded work for you...I know that you do it for us. Obviously, not because you have to.

I appreciate you all very much! Sorry for the extra headaches.

 

[ferider]

No need to defend yourself, Nathan, you did the preorder on request of many of us. I’d have to search long and hard for a shop with as much integrity as yours.

Now, you could slow down the Fri sales by increasing prices …. Just saying. …

On the bright side, at least the preorder was not for a DEK3

 

[Crag the Brewer]

You might not be as bummed if he stopped pre-sales if the regular sales were fair and everyone had an equal chance of winning. When the fast guys always win, everyone should understand it's a biased, unfair contest. I have a professional designation where ethics is heavily stressed and violations are enforced. Requiring full payment upfront a year before the expected delivery date seems unethical, especially when sales of the same product are ongoing. I could see a deposit of 20, 25% as reasonable, but 100? One only has to look at the Survive Knives scandal to know 100% pre-payment way in advance is a bad idea. CPK pockets $90k upfront on this pre-sale. The fact that he's "upfront" about it doesn't make it okay. I like knives and I'm bummed I won't get an EDC. When I see something is unfair, I speak my opinion. Anyway, I appreciate your comments.

Yeah, I ve been on the short side of the stick with these sales twice....
Once with the Cruwear field knife.
And once with an ugly screwed up wood scale knife Nathan posted for sale not in the usual area.... He said nobody would want it, I figured I'd give them a try, I probably would regrind it anyhow......well, I was refreshing for 5-10 mins. Nothing was happening......haha the laugh was on me. I guess it was a collector piece

That's Ok.

It's Nathan's knives, Nathan's company.
The fastest people, the people who pay the most, are the people who are willing Will get them.....

It's just not You.

-or me.

Lifes, not fair. I don't believe in communism or participation trophies

It is what it is......

*For the record, I watched this one, Could of been around 100- 120 post/person, If I wanted in.... Went Really Fast..... Glad everyone had a good time, thank s Nathan!