Am i being unreasonable?

[김원진]

I originally made a thread questioning a never used/mint blade with wear on the handles.

I was concerned when i made a purchase and right after i opened the box yesterday, i noticed something wrong with the blade and tip. I emailed the seller right away, in regards to my concerns. I never mentioned the persons name, nor did i mention it was through here or any relation to BFC. I never got a reply back till today. Yet there was login activity yesterday and today.

The seller never made any attempt to reply back to me. I understand there may be work issues, friends, etc. But, like i said, there was multiple login activity here on the forums. So i wondered if i was being avoided. I finally sent a pm, since the seller was not responding to my emails(which during the sale was very active and communications were excellent). Again, my bewilderment when now there was no response.

I know this wasn't going to be a pristine knife. The description said used, carried, marks on the handles, BUT, the blade was mint and -never- used. Another thing stated, i asked if everything was included(paperwork, cloth), and the reply back was yes. But later, in an email, there now was no cloth, although the picture showed it with one. Not a big thing, so i told the seller i would still take it.

We've come now to a point where i'm being accused of doing something wrong, cursing in an email, and comparing my lack of reputation to theirs. I initially said i wanted to return the knife for a refund, and asked if it would be okay for the seller to pay for the return fee as well. But then rudeness came and demanding me to take down my thread. The seller said they wouldn't refund my money until they received the knife back. I know that i'm new here, but i feel because i was wronged shouldn't the seller refund first? And i've been polite this entire time, even now. I said time and time again i wouldn't leave negative feedback or say who it was, but the last emails just said:

"One more thing - ask the mods to close the thread you opened before anybody else sees it.
Send me the USPS info for the knife return but other than that - don't contact me again."

My last email said i'd like to receive the return shipment fee first, before i send the knife back. Is that unreasonable? I just don't want to return the knife, then i'm out money and a knife, if the seller ends up being vindictive. Then i would need to go through whatever process it is with paypal.

Please give me your thoughts. Here is my original thread with pictures of the knife. The seller said it looked like it came straight from CRK, but never mentioned there was a previous owner.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/863361-Am-i-seeing-things

If the consensus is the seller should refund first, and the seller still chooses not to, i'll leave it up to everyone if i should post the entire email conversations of how the seller reacted.

 

[Seanifred]

saw the thread and the sale thread...description definitely says blade is mint. the pictures show otherwise. seller should refund money and shipping costs. hope it works out for you.

 

[The Logical One]

False advertisement on the seller's part.... bad juju. Definitely not unreasonable for you to request for a refund + shipping costs.

 

[neuron]

I've been following this since you posted your original thread with pictures, and have also looked at the original sales thread, and no, I don't think you're being unreasonable in asking for a refund of the purchase price plus return shipping.

I think the seller is being reasonable in asking for the knife to be returned before he refunds the price of the knife itself -- that's the standard return practice in pretty much any transaction in which money has been exchanged for goods. Sending the funds for return shipping before you send the knife, while not absolutely required as long as he reimburses you in the end, would definitely be good form. Where I think the seller is being quite unreasonable, however, is in demanding that you close your thread and, especially, not contact him again except to send the tracking info for the return. Until everything is resolved to both parties' satisfaction, keeping an open channel of communication is the least that each person should do.

 

[김원진]

The way the seller has been replying puts me off a little to send the knife back first. I've stayed courteous throughout all messages, but after seeing my thread questioning the blade, that's when the seller got "pissed".

A few people have suggested to file a paypal claim, that way i get my money back. But i do see that the seller has lots of positive feedback, and there's no reason to tarnish that on paypal or here, for something that can be easily rectified. But the fact that the seller did a comparison of their reputation against mine in one of the last emails felt like a kick in the face. I can understand that i'm new, but i've been very communicative through emails, and very active here.

I'm not trying to be vindictive, steal a knife, or make money from this. I've already met a fellow member from the forums to chit chat about knives and he showed me some of his that i had not seen before.

The last thing i told the seller was to just send the money for the return shipping, and i would send the knife right away because there is a 24/7 post office 15min away. But there's been no response since then. Thank you for the feedback everyone. I am still learning my way around here.

 

[Wharn]

I think you are definitely right. I am sure you will get refunded once you return the knife though. Make sure you put delivery confirmation/insurance on it when you send it. Although it would be nice of the seller to pay for the cost of returning it since he was dishonest, I really would not lose sleep over it.

 

[nick425]

I think you are definitely right. I am sure you will get refunded once you return the knife though. Make sure you put delivery confirmation/insurance on it when you send it. Although it would be nice of the seller to pay for the cost of returning it since he was dishonest, I really would not lose sleep over it.

+1

I agree with the above post.

 

[CWL]

It is standard for the buyer to first return the knife, but in your case, the seller should pay for the return shipping charges, just to maintain his goodwill. If the Seller refuses, you should start the Paypal claim immediately. You can always drop a Paypal claim at any time and it does not harm the Seller. It is only from accumulated claims filed against him that paypal will drop the hammer on him.

Go ahead and ask again for the return fees up front. If he doesn't, then go ahead and give up his name and file the Paypal claim.

 

[EMT_Lee]

In this particular case, I'd say the seller should pay the return shipping. That is simply because I agree that he misrepresented the knife. However, the seller should not refund a nickel of money until they have the knife back. Asking them to do otherwise is unreasonable, yes.

 

[Los Angeles]

You guys might be really pissed at each other, and no, it never should have gone that way. But I do have faith that you will get your refund after you send it back. If you don't, you will still have Paypal at your back.

There's nothing to fear. Just send the stuff back.

 

[Bryan J]

Lots of good advice from members here. It is somewhat unreasonable to ask for the refund before the knife has actually been returned. However, if you feel there is any possibility that this seller would try to screw you I would go ahead and file the PayPal claim now. It's free to do and it can always be retracted/resolved by you at any time. If you ship the knife back and then are given the run around before you file, you'll be waiting for your refund for a long time. If you file now and provide delivery confirmation you will receive your refund much more quickly.

I've read this seller's original thread. If the knife in the pictures you posted is the one you received directly from the seller, then this is a clear-cut case of a misrepresented item. The seller either made a mistake in his listing description or he is intentionally trying to deceive people. If it was an honest mistake, his best options would be to either offer a partial refund or accept the knife back and grant the full refund. If he has any integrity he will pay for the return shipping as well since the entire misunderstanding is his fault. But I agree with what others have implied--your priority should be to get your money back first. If he refuses to pay for the return shipping, there's probably little you can do (I'm not sure PayPal will go after the seller for return shipping costs). Buying/trading over the web is a risky enterprise and you're going to get burned once in awhile if you do it often enough. This is precisely why it is important for members to help one another (and the mods) to police the community here. I'll be watching how this plays out.

 

[snowreaper1]

From the dealings I've had with the seller I believe him to be honest member and hell make things right in the end. He might have not knowingly misrepresented the knife so became
defensive when the issue was brought up. Just keep a cool head and both sides dont get personal and find a solution to make you happy.

 

[RevDevil]

Here are my thoughts on the matter in general (independent of the buyer/seller involved):

1. I never buy a knife sight unseen anywhere, unless it is from someone on the forums that I know well enough or have had a transaction with them in the past. That is my first rule of protecting myself from going through all the BS that seems to somehow "happen" to some people. A little common sense, goes a LONG way.

2. It has been my experience that everyone has a different standard for what is considered "NIB, LNIB, Gently Used, etc.". When I sell a knife, and it says NIB, it's the way it came from the factory. No pocket time, no "I carried it a bunch but never used it" garbage. This is why asking for additional pictures if they do not already exist is a good thing. Again, a little goes a long way especially wehn you plan on dropping significant coin on a purchase. Some people though, have a consistent problem misrepresenting things, maybe they do it on purpose, maybe they just need to get some glasses. Treating the item in such a way that you would apply your own standards to it is the best way to conduct a deal. Ask yourself, "Would I consider this item to be NIB, LNIB, etc, whatever if I were buying it?

3. The communication aspect of a transaction is just as important as the deal itself (in my view). However, I do not feel that seller with integrity should be obligated to "hold someone's hand" for a purchase. Resting on your laurels attitudes as it were are complete BS. It is important to have clear and open communication in both directions. No need to get snippy, cop an attitude, or be completely rude about anything on anyone's part. Cooler heads will prevail.

 

[EMT_Lee]

Here are my thoughts on the matter in general (independent of the buyer/seller involved):

1. I never buy a knife sight unseen anywhere, unless it is from someone on the forums that I know well enough or have had a transaction with them in the past. That is my first rule of protecting myself from going through all the BS that seems to somehow "happen" to some people. A little common sense, goes a LONG way.

2. It has been my experience that everyone has a different standard for what is considered "NIB, LNIB, Gently Used, etc.". When I sell a knife, and it says NIB, it's the way it came from the factory. No pocket time, no "I carried it a bunch but never used it" garbage. This is why asking for additional pictures if they do not already exist is a good thing. Again, a little goes a long way especially wehn you plan on dropping significant coin on a purchase. Some people though, have a consistent problem misrepresenting things, maybe they do it on purpose, maybe they just need to get some glasses. Treating the item in such a way that you would apply your own standards to it is the best way to conduct a deal. Ask yourself, "Would I consider this item to be NIB, LNIB, etc, whatever if I were buying it?

3. The communication aspect of a transaction is just as important as the deal itself (in my view). However, I do not feel that seller with integrity should be obligated to "hold someone's hand" for a purchase. Resting on your laurels attitudes as it were are complete BS. It is important to have clear and open communication in both directions. No need to get snippy, cop an attitude, or be completely rude about anything on anyone's part. Cooler heads will prevail.

When I'm describing an item, I generally try to under-sell it, just to avoid the "it's not as described!" thing that seems to happen a lot. I've had multiple people tell me it's "better than described", and that's the way I like it. I've yet to have a knife returned to me on a sell/trade, and I've done several.

 

[cnas122]

Like everyone said, you should send the knife back first before you get a refund. It's just the way it goes. As for the every lingering problem with bad communication.......it happens. People don't check their email everyday...I don't. I also login to BF some days even though I haven't check my personal email. Just because someone has logged into BF but has not emailed you back doesn't mean they are being shady and avoiding you or trying to screw you on a knife. If I were to be as responsive while selling a knife as I am at my regular job, I wouldn't have a regular job because I would spend all of my time making sure there weren't problems with knife transactions.

Other thing to mention....you have just as much responsibility in your due diligence buying a knife as the seller has in accurately describing the knife. Ask for pictures...close up pictures.....if you are super anal about anything and everything with a knife. Ask him if the blade wobbles. Ask him if there are any gaps. Ask him to describe his understanding of NIB and compare that to your understanding of NIB. "Mint" and "unused" are other ambiguous words

Shit happens, and everyone messes up. In the last couple days, I sold a $3k plus slipjoint. I thoroughly examined the knife and took pictures of extremely small imperfections that I thought were necessary to disclose in my sale. I've played with the knife for hours. It was a 20 year old knife that has never been used. When the buyer received it, he had some concerns. He found the blade springs to be less "snappy" than he was used to and also found a tiny wobble in one of the secondary blades. I was totally cool with those concerns...he paid good money for the knife and he should get what he expects. But my point is that the things he disliked about the knife didn't bother me and I didn't even notice. I know that some knives are made with blades that snap like alligators and some aren't. The wobble that he detected was small enough for me not to be familiar with it. 2 different people can see 2 different things when they look at a knife. To me, the only issue with it was the tiny imperfections that I disclosed. To him, the problems were those same imperfections, plus light springs, plus a wobbly secondary blade. We both came to an agreement after discussing the matter, and he took the knife, I took the money, and I believe both of us are happy. A pristine knife in my eyes was not a pristine knife in his eyes. People have different standards and different opinions. In that deal, our standards and opinions differed. But we also both thought highly of each other and both knew there was no ill-will.

Anyways...there's my rant for the day.

 

[RevDevil]

When I'm describing an item, I generally try to under-sell it, just to avoid the "it's not as described!" thing that seems to happen a lot. I've had multiple people tell me it's "better than described", and that's the way I like it. I've yet to have a knife returned to me on a sell/trade, and I've done several.

Yep, that goes into the "underpromise and overdeliver" catagory.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

no way that knife is unused.

send it back and get a refund if you are not happy with it.

 

[김원진]

From the dealings I've had with the seller I believe him to be honest member and hell make things right in the end. He might have not knowingly misrepresented the knife so became
defensive when the issue was brought up. Just keep a cool head and both sides dont get personal and find a solution to make you happy.

i don't really think he unknowingly misrepresented the knife

Never was it mentioned that it had any previous owners, until in a later email the seller said so.

I don't see how there is a question with a -never been used/mint- blade, hence why i didn't ask for more pictures. The seller already stated that there were scratches on the handles. But this blade has clearly had something done to the tip and the blade.

Cnas122- Not everyone said i should send it back first. I've had a few emails, and PM's stating otherwise. I can understand maybe people don't check their emails as regularly as they sign into BFC. But, in our communications, he asked me to let him know when i received the package. I would think with as many sales and buys that this seller has, it would be commonplace to check up on your buyer.

My hesitancy stems from the aggressive and then offensive nature the sellers emails became. I've stated in the emails that i'm not trying to steal a knife, make money from this or anything. I just don't want to be out money on something that was clearly misrepresented. I've stated in emails, here, and now paypal that i will send the knife back with insurance and DC. I've been very open about it and not trying to hide any facts. But the sellers last 2 emails said "don't contact me again" and "just so i'm rid of you". In the beginning i asked for a partial refund so i could have the blade fixed(because i know i would probably ruin a CRK edge), but that was completely disregarded.

I'll update once this is all settled. I myself am in the middle of moving to a new apartment, and i work full time. But i don't find it difficult to check up here or emails. I really enjoy this community and everything i've learned from it. So I would like this to end as smoothly as it can without any loss.

 

[Bryan J]

i don't really think he unknowingly misrepresented the knife

Never was it mentioned that it had any previous owners, until in a later email the seller said so.

I don't see how there is a question with a -never been used/mint- blade, hence why i didn't ask for more pictures. The seller already stated that there were scratches on the handles. But this blade has clearly had something done to the tip and the blade.

Cnas122- Not everyone said i should send it back first. I've had a few emails, and PM's stating otherwise. I can understand maybe people don't check their emails as regularly as they sign into BFC. But, in our communications, he asked me to let him know when i received the package. I would think with as many sales and buys that this seller has, it would be commonplace to check up on your buyer.

My hesitancy stems from the aggressive and then offensive nature the sellers emails became. I've stated in the emails that i'm not trying to steal a knife, make money from this or anything. I just don't want to be out money on something that was clearly misrepresented. I've stated in emails, here, and now paypal that i will send the knife back with insurance and DC. I've been very open about it and not trying to hide any facts. But the sellers last 2 emails said "don't contact me again" and "just so i'm rid of you". In the beginning i asked for a partial refund so i could have the blade fixed(because i know i would probably ruin a CRK edge), but that was completely disregarded.

I'll update once this is all settled. I myself am in the middle of moving to a new apartment, and i work full time. But i don't find it difficult to check up here or emails. I really enjoy this community and everything i've learned from it. So I would like this to end as smoothly as it can without any loss.

I'm not following your rationale. How could you possibly complain about his response to your concern? He clearly offered you a full refund from the very beginning--that's the best you could hope for. What on Earth did you say to him after this that annoyed him to the point to tell you to stop contacting him?

I'm sorry, but I'm now starting to suspect that you haven't handled this very gracefully. After all, this person does have a pretty impressive feedback record so he probably deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Your behavior seems a bit extreme in my opinion.

 

[김원진]

The email after this one, I sent him a link to where i originally posted the pictures, and even though i didn't say where i bought it from or who i bought it from the seller got angry at me and that's when everything went downhill.

The feedback thing while it is good, doesn't make someone who is new at this more comfortable, when they get angry emails, that kinda throws it out. You can have impressive feedback, but the way you handle a situation when things didn't turn out as expected, i think speaks more.

I'll be sending the package out tonight(we have a 24/7 post office). So we'll see if the seller refunds everything. If i haven't handled it gracefully it's because this is my second time purchasing here on the forums. And hoped others(including the seller) would help me along. I've read many threads, where people were out money on return shipping up to $30. And i've received messages saying i should at least get the return shipping first, since it was the sellers fault for clearly misrepresenting the item. But i never got a response back regarding just the shipping cost first.

Is that fair that i take the risk of losing money for a misrepresented item? If i don't receive the full refund, then i'll post all of the negative emails, and then you judge my rationale and grace. Stay tuned in couple of days