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Andre De Villiers Butcher BAD BUSINESS, SHADY PRACTICES ADV Butcher Knife
- Thread starter Tenacious D
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wolfmann601
Gone, but not forgotton. RIP Ira.
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I am certainly not a big buyer in the knife world. I spend maybe $5-7000 a year, an amount many here spend on one or two knives. But I was absolutely certain one second after reading what Andre wrote that I will never spend one dime on a knife that he had anything to do with it's making or the production of. In the big world of knives this is a speck of sand, but add that to the many specks generated by ADV's attitude to this issue and it just might hurt.
"game on"
"game on"
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Please do Andre. What are you going to tell them? That we are men of integrity who have enough self respect to opt for a refund rather than own a knife that we've been eagerly anticipating because the maker has poor character?
Post whatever you want, because whatever you lie about, I will be there with the proof to back up all that I have detailed. I won't be sending a "representative" with unsubstantiated lies.
What cracks me up about this thread is how absolutely unoriginal all of this is.
I mean, this is what now, the third or fourth time we've seen a knife maker getting roasted for his garbage business practices, where some low post count guy comes in and tries to defend the maker and making these claims like "I'm Maker Guy's friend, I'm just trying to help..." followed by one or more of the following:
- the maker himself is too busy to come in and defend himself.
- the maker doesn't know how to use the internet because he's somehow incapable of using the internet (despite the fact that he has an internet presence in other places in the internet.)
- the maker is just doing the best he can, trying to feed himself and his poor little wife and children (an attempt to portray the maker as an honest businessperson humbly doing all he can for his family, which is usually an attempt at the "The children, won't you think of the children?!" schtick.)
And it's ALWAYS just "a friend", and someone who's "good with people" where the knife guy isn't good with people, so he's just trying to smooth things over for his friend.
I mean, this is literally a play by play of this same situation that's happened with other makers in this very section. Gun Nerd, go back and tell your employer that folks here aren't buying your hat-in-hand act, nor Andre's tremendously conspicuous absence. Good luck.
I mean, this is what now, the third or fourth time we've seen a knife maker getting roasted for his garbage business practices, where some low post count guy comes in and tries to defend the maker and making these claims like "I'm Maker Guy's friend, I'm just trying to help..." followed by one or more of the following:
- the maker himself is too busy to come in and defend himself.
- the maker doesn't know how to use the internet because he's somehow incapable of using the internet (despite the fact that he has an internet presence in other places in the internet.)
- the maker is just doing the best he can, trying to feed himself and his poor little wife and children (an attempt to portray the maker as an honest businessperson humbly doing all he can for his family, which is usually an attempt at the "The children, won't you think of the children?!" schtick.)
And it's ALWAYS just "a friend", and someone who's "good with people" where the knife guy isn't good with people, so he's just trying to smooth things over for his friend.
I mean, this is literally a play by play of this same situation that's happened with other makers in this very section. Gun Nerd, go back and tell your employer that folks here aren't buying your hat-in-hand act, nor Andre's tremendously conspicuous absence. Good luck.
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This^^
It's funny how @Thegunnerd can come on here, post a bunch of lies and when I respond in detail on each of his lies, that he offers up nothing more to say or any proof on those matters, instead, just regurgitating the same old stuff..."Andre is too busy and not internet savvy"
In my experience, I contacted Andre directly through facebook asking about one of the knives I saw on his page. He explained in his first reply what was included for $450, and what was extra. That was about 2 months ago. Since then I had several other questions for him and he has been really helpful.
What happened here is obviously unfortunate, but for everyone to avoid buying a knife that they like, just because the maker didn't make a great impression on one or two other members of this forum is pretty strange to me.
There is a good chance that diplomacy was neglected on BOTH sides of this transaction. I don't know about you guys, but if I have sent someone $450, I'm going to be pretty nice to them until I get either my money back, or the product I purchased. To call him out and accuse Andre of trying to swindle you BEFORE getting your full refund seems risky to me, and indeed you got burned. You made custom order requests and assumed a midtech price. Think about how many messages Andre gets a day, and think about how he may overlook certain details of an order. Give him the benefit of the doubt, after all he has been in the knife industry for likely a longer time than you have...
Just my two cents, but I think a lot of it comes down to being polite and respecting the seller when making online transactions because of how vulnerable the buyer is. Until you have a complete refund, or a product in your hand, I would pretty much kiss his arse. That's just how I go about being a safe buyer online anyways....
What happened here is obviously unfortunate, but for everyone to avoid buying a knife that they like, just because the maker didn't make a great impression on one or two other members of this forum is pretty strange to me.
There is a good chance that diplomacy was neglected on BOTH sides of this transaction. I don't know about you guys, but if I have sent someone $450, I'm going to be pretty nice to them until I get either my money back, or the product I purchased. To call him out and accuse Andre of trying to swindle you BEFORE getting your full refund seems risky to me, and indeed you got burned. You made custom order requests and assumed a midtech price. Think about how many messages Andre gets a day, and think about how he may overlook certain details of an order. Give him the benefit of the doubt, after all he has been in the knife industry for likely a longer time than you have...
Just my two cents, but I think a lot of it comes down to being polite and respecting the seller when making online transactions because of how vulnerable the buyer is. Until you have a complete refund, or a product in your hand, I would pretty much kiss his arse. That's just how I go about being a safe buyer online anyways....
Gastonknife
Gold Member
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I hope that someone goes back and reads the whole post again, not make assumptions or guess at chances, and sticks to the facts.
A buyer should kiss a sellers arse? Should be the other way around. ADV had poor practices all along. He could have made it an easy fix. Giving him the benefit of the doubt about the initial order process is perfectly fine. I would do that. HOWEVER, he proceeded to continue to go down hill at every step > not issuing refund, not giving it all back, making the buyer agree to post positive b4 he gave money back, sends someone else here to speak for him - after he told obvious lies, refuses to address the issue himself, he is not tech savy, busy, and in the end makes threats to another buyer. Yes, a great way to endear yourself to the knife community.
A buyer should kiss a sellers arse? Should be the other way around. ADV had poor practices all along. He could have made it an easy fix. Giving him the benefit of the doubt about the initial order process is perfectly fine. I would do that. HOWEVER, he proceeded to continue to go down hill at every step > not issuing refund, not giving it all back, making the buyer agree to post positive b4 he gave money back, sends someone else here to speak for him - after he told obvious lies, refuses to address the issue himself, he is not tech savy, busy, and in the end makes threats to another buyer. Yes, a great way to endear yourself to the knife community.
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Well, you should read the thread and get your FACTS straight before you start posting stuff that is untrue too. I mean, it's fine for you to speak of your experience with Andre. But to post and make points on details that have already been established, as if they were the truth, on two other peoples experiences is ridiculous. Andre's own words and actions has already shown what type of person he really is, NOT the "aw shucks, good guy" picture that you and @thegunnerd are trying to paint.
CRKDMike wrote:
"You made custom order requests and assumed a midtech price."
I think this has been covered several times already and I have posted the exact message exchange between myself and Andre VERBATIM. I did not "assume" anything, so check your FACTS. I ordered and detailed those options in a message to Andre along with a photo of the knife, also in the Paypal notes. Andre confirmed. Period, end of story.
"In my experience, I contacted Andre directly through facebook asking about one of the knives I saw on his page. He explained in his first reply what was included for $450, and what was extra."
This did not occur with either myself, or the message exchanges that I've seen Tomalock post. In fact, it's the opposite with the intention to mislead. Again, never mentioned anything as being an upgrade when talking about available options AND he confirmed my order. What more is there to say? I hope you're not insinuating that we are lying. Again, ask yourself, how much sense does it make that we try to get "upgrades" for free so that we can piss off the maker and ultimately NOT end up with knives that we really wanted.
"There is a good chance that diplomacy was neglected on BOTH sides of this transaction. I don't know about you guys, but if I have sent someone $450, I'm going to be pretty nice to them until I get either my money back, or the product I purchased."
Diplomacy was CERTAINLY practiced on my end and DEFINITELY not on Andre's end, so for you to say that it was neglected by me without processing the FACTS that have been detailed is offensive. I was 100% cordial and friendly with Andre until he decided to quit responding to me. At that point, I did use profanity in a message to him asking for my refund. He was not responding, yet I was completely cordial in asking him to confirm my order details. I used some profanity and it seemed to work as I finally did get a response from him. Beyond that, I later messaged and apologized for the profanity and explained that it was, in part, because he was not responding to my messages. Yes, I wish I did not use profanity and I apologized for that -- DIPLOMACY. Andre back out of his committment on an order he confirmed, never refunded my money (that he suggested), ignored my messages inquiring about my refund, and asked me to post to his Facebook page stating that everything was worked out in exchange for the balance of my refund, which he never followed through on -- NEGLECTED DIPLOMACY
"Think about how many messages Andre gets a day, and think about how he may overlook certain details of an order. Give him the benefit of the doubt..."
I think that point has been spoken to in this thread already. I am not an asshole and if someone makes an innocent mistake, I'm totally ok with that. If Andre decides not to make good on the mistake that HE made, that's fine. But to turn it around on your customer and say "what, you want options for free?" is a douche-bag move, even if it was an innocent mistake to begin with (which it wasn't in my case, or from what I've seen neiher in Tomalock's case). Beyond that, again, explain to me why, if he decides the right thing to do is not honor his own "innocent mistake", why it is ok for him to a) blame the customer for trying to get "free upgrades" b) not respond to their messages c) not refund their money? Please explain your view on that CRKDMike
What happened here is obviously unfortunate, but for everyone to avoid buying a knife that they like, just because the maker didn't make a great impression on one or two other members of this forum is pretty strange to me.
That is your opinion. I think I clearly stated in an earlier post that some people just don't care about the character of a maker, and I could care less. But to say that other people are strange for caring that the knife they carry is from someone who has integrity is bullshit. The knives that I own are personal to me. How about if I said it was strange that you DIDN'T care about a maker's character and that all you cared about was the current and future value of the knife you own? I question a little bit if that isn't the real basis behind your post. Afterall, you do own at least one of his knives now and so you do have at least a little bit of a vested interest in this, maybe not as much as Thegunnerd, but again, what do I have to possibly gain from this?
"...I would pretty much kiss his arse..."
I think this illustrates the difference between someone like yourself and someone like me. I think that's the whole point of why "strange" people, as you call them, care about the knives they carry. It's called SELF RESPECT.
Bottom line is, Andre has shown through his own words and actions (and inactions) the man he truly is. Since all you really have to offer is "I didn't get screwed", I don't really expect you to empathize with me or Tomalock, but let's just stick to the facts here. The most telling fact is quoting what Andre says himself... "game ON"
CRKDMike wrote:
"You made custom order requests and assumed a midtech price."
I think this has been covered several times already and I have posted the exact message exchange between myself and Andre VERBATIM. I did not "assume" anything, so check your FACTS. I ordered and detailed those options in a message to Andre along with a photo of the knife, also in the Paypal notes. Andre confirmed. Period, end of story.
"In my experience, I contacted Andre directly through facebook asking about one of the knives I saw on his page. He explained in his first reply what was included for $450, and what was extra."
This did not occur with either myself, or the message exchanges that I've seen Tomalock post. In fact, it's the opposite with the intention to mislead. Again, never mentioned anything as being an upgrade when talking about available options AND he confirmed my order. What more is there to say? I hope you're not insinuating that we are lying. Again, ask yourself, how much sense does it make that we try to get "upgrades" for free so that we can piss off the maker and ultimately NOT end up with knives that we really wanted.
"There is a good chance that diplomacy was neglected on BOTH sides of this transaction. I don't know about you guys, but if I have sent someone $450, I'm going to be pretty nice to them until I get either my money back, or the product I purchased."
Diplomacy was CERTAINLY practiced on my end and DEFINITELY not on Andre's end, so for you to say that it was neglected by me without processing the FACTS that have been detailed is offensive. I was 100% cordial and friendly with Andre until he decided to quit responding to me. At that point, I did use profanity in a message to him asking for my refund. He was not responding, yet I was completely cordial in asking him to confirm my order details. I used some profanity and it seemed to work as I finally did get a response from him. Beyond that, I later messaged and apologized for the profanity and explained that it was, in part, because he was not responding to my messages. Yes, I wish I did not use profanity and I apologized for that -- DIPLOMACY. Andre back out of his committment on an order he confirmed, never refunded my money (that he suggested), ignored my messages inquiring about my refund, and asked me to post to his Facebook page stating that everything was worked out in exchange for the balance of my refund, which he never followed through on -- NEGLECTED DIPLOMACY
"Think about how many messages Andre gets a day, and think about how he may overlook certain details of an order. Give him the benefit of the doubt..."
I think that point has been spoken to in this thread already. I am not an asshole and if someone makes an innocent mistake, I'm totally ok with that. If Andre decides not to make good on the mistake that HE made, that's fine. But to turn it around on your customer and say "what, you want options for free?" is a douche-bag move, even if it was an innocent mistake to begin with (which it wasn't in my case, or from what I've seen neiher in Tomalock's case). Beyond that, again, explain to me why, if he decides the right thing to do is not honor his own "innocent mistake", why it is ok for him to a) blame the customer for trying to get "free upgrades" b) not respond to their messages c) not refund their money? Please explain your view on that CRKDMike
What happened here is obviously unfortunate, but for everyone to avoid buying a knife that they like, just because the maker didn't make a great impression on one or two other members of this forum is pretty strange to me.
That is your opinion. I think I clearly stated in an earlier post that some people just don't care about the character of a maker, and I could care less. But to say that other people are strange for caring that the knife they carry is from someone who has integrity is bullshit. The knives that I own are personal to me. How about if I said it was strange that you DIDN'T care about a maker's character and that all you cared about was the current and future value of the knife you own? I question a little bit if that isn't the real basis behind your post. Afterall, you do own at least one of his knives now and so you do have at least a little bit of a vested interest in this, maybe not as much as Thegunnerd, but again, what do I have to possibly gain from this?
"...I would pretty much kiss his arse..."
I think this illustrates the difference between someone like yourself and someone like me. I think that's the whole point of why "strange" people, as you call them, care about the knives they carry. It's called SELF RESPECT.
Bottom line is, Andre has shown through his own words and actions (and inactions) the man he truly is. Since all you really have to offer is "I didn't get screwed", I don't really expect you to empathize with me or Tomalock, but let's just stick to the facts here. The most telling fact is quoting what Andre says himself... "game ON"
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Wow man, now I know what Andre had to deal with haha, you're nuts! You are quick to attack and you are not diplomatic, you need to look that word up.
This just appears to be a place for you to vent, and that's cool, everyone needs to vent. You are clearly a VERY defensive individual, and I can see how that might make problems for you when making transactions online like this. Good luck in the future, and again you should work on not being so touchy, and being more patient and diplomatic with people. That will go a long way to protect you from situations like this. Also I read the entire thread, and what I said is merely my opinion, just like what you say is merely your opinion. In the end, you got burned, and 1000 or more other people did not get burned. Do you honestly think that is because of Andre? Maybe you need to take a look at your own actions throughout the transaction and think to yourself, what could I have done to protect myself better?
If there were people getting "swindled" by Andre at every transaction, then yea, maybe you would have a point, but really he sells a LOT of knives, and has done so for 24 years successfully. This is the only thread I have seen about someone getting burned by him.....I'll keep my eyes peeled though.
This just appears to be a place for you to vent, and that's cool, everyone needs to vent. You are clearly a VERY defensive individual, and I can see how that might make problems for you when making transactions online like this. Good luck in the future, and again you should work on not being so touchy, and being more patient and diplomatic with people. That will go a long way to protect you from situations like this. Also I read the entire thread, and what I said is merely my opinion, just like what you say is merely your opinion. In the end, you got burned, and 1000 or more other people did not get burned. Do you honestly think that is because of Andre? Maybe you need to take a look at your own actions throughout the transaction and think to yourself, what could I have done to protect myself better?
If there were people getting "swindled" by Andre at every transaction, then yea, maybe you would have a point, but really he sells a LOT of knives, and has done so for 24 years successfully. This is the only thread I have seen about someone getting burned by him.....I'll keep my eyes peeled though.
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CRKDMike, I'm nuts? I'm defensive? I think it's you who are a little defensive for me pointing out the obvious in your post. So tell me why it's ok for you to post statements like "You ordered a custom and assumed a Mid Tech price", and why I don't have a right to respond to you on that? Just because your the passive aggressive type, doesn't mean you get to pretend you are "diplomatic".
Everyone knows that not even a small percentage of the issues with any given maker ever make it to a public discussion like this. Why? Because it's a pain in the ass and I have to put up with passive-aggressive guys like you who truly can't see their own bias because they don't want to hate the knife they now own. We most likely wouldn't even know about Tomalock's case if I didn't post and I'm sure there are WAY more people out there who experienced the same thing but opted to pony up. Those guys aren't going to come on here and start posting. And to that end you are missing the point, and I will quote two other people who have already said it better than me...
Stick to the facts because coming on here to call me defensive and non-diplomatic, in the end, does nothing to disprove what me and Tomalock have detailed.
Everyone knows that not even a small percentage of the issues with any given maker ever make it to a public discussion like this. Why? Because it's a pain in the ass and I have to put up with passive-aggressive guys like you who truly can't see their own bias because they don't want to hate the knife they now own. We most likely wouldn't even know about Tomalock's case if I didn't post and I'm sure there are WAY more people out there who experienced the same thing but opted to pony up. Those guys aren't going to come on here and start posting. And to that end you are missing the point, and I will quote two other people who have already said it better than me...
Stick to the facts because coming on here to call me defensive and non-diplomatic, in the end, does nothing to disprove what me and Tomalock have detailed.
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I think it's already been pointed out that sending customers and "friends" here to make statement's such as "He ordered a custom and assumed a Mid Tech price" with no validation, doesn't help.
And no, it's not because I need to vent. It's because Andre went out of his way be an asshole.
And no, it's not because I need to vent. It's because Andre went out of his way be an asshole.
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CRKDMike, look at it this way. Andre has been very polite to you, and you have been exceptionally polite to Andre, because you are hoping for him to come through with a product and he is hoping for you to pay him up front*. Have you paid him already? Because if you have not, seems to me that your comments here could be construed as very self-serving. "See, Andre? Did you see me sticking up for you?"
The issue here is that you aren't thinking this situation through, and considering the similarities between your and Sugarleaf's situation. Andre was polite to Sugarleaf in the beginning also, and it all changed after he'd been paid. What if that happens to you? Then what?
And that's the issue here. Let's take another tack. Let's say you've also already paid him. And you're in here sticking up for him. Commendable, but here's a question you should be asking yourself the next time you send an email or phone call asking for an update "Could this be the contact that catches this simpering diva on a bad day, and so now he hates me and will drag his feet on my knife and when I ask for a refund out of irritation, he gives me the runaround?"
Because I can't speak for you, but that's what I'D be thinking.
And also, let me set you straight on something. You should NEVER kiss someone's ass who has your money. It's your money. Period. If he hasn't provided the product as agreed on, then guess what? He's obligated to give you a refund (unless there was some explicit "no refunds" agreement, which isn't the case here). Period. I don't care if a seller doesn't like me, or if he thinks I spoke to him without the proper worshipful tone. If the guy dicks me, I am getting that money back. And I'll do it without any arsekissing or groveling.
That's just how I am. Good luck with your transaction.
*When are people going to learn?!
The issue here is that you aren't thinking this situation through, and considering the similarities between your and Sugarleaf's situation. Andre was polite to Sugarleaf in the beginning also, and it all changed after he'd been paid. What if that happens to you? Then what?
And that's the issue here. Let's take another tack. Let's say you've also already paid him. And you're in here sticking up for him. Commendable, but here's a question you should be asking yourself the next time you send an email or phone call asking for an update "Could this be the contact that catches this simpering diva on a bad day, and so now he hates me and will drag his feet on my knife and when I ask for a refund out of irritation, he gives me the runaround?"
Because I can't speak for you, but that's what I'D be thinking.
And also, let me set you straight on something. You should NEVER kiss someone's ass who has your money. It's your money. Period. If he hasn't provided the product as agreed on, then guess what? He's obligated to give you a refund (unless there was some explicit "no refunds" agreement, which isn't the case here). Period. I don't care if a seller doesn't like me, or if he thinks I spoke to him without the proper worshipful tone. If the guy dicks me, I am getting that money back. And I'll do it without any arsekissing or groveling.
That's just how I am. Good luck with your transaction.
*When are people going to learn?!
Gastonknife
Gold Member
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Sounds like ADV has someone else coming here to attempt to save face/give him a pass. Sugar - he is trying to bait you, and get you to react. Let it go. ADV continues to speak loudly with his absence and letting others attempt to stand up for him. You have stated facts that even his rep rep can not prove wrong. Notice how gunner disappeared too. Unless someone has facts and firsthand knowledge to show, it is nothing more than diversion.
Alright, you guys would argue with a lamp post, I have better things to do, so this is my last time reading this thread. You guys chill here and bitch and complain, I'll be out there NOT having problems with makers.
You guys are so self entitled you think that makers should be Ssooooo happy that you want one of their knives, and that they should put up with your crap just to sell one. Really though, some makers don't want or need you as a customer if they don't like you. They can pick and choose who they make knives for for whatever reason they want to, and they can demand anything they want to. Be kind, be considerate, and don't be a dick when things don't go exactly the way you want or "agreed to." Or, like some of you are suggesting, go around making demands from makers and have the sense of entitlement that makes you feel proud. It's your choice.
BTW I have already paid for and received my butcher. No issues, and Andre was super helpful. That is really the focus of my argument here, but you guys don't care, you just want to complain. Misery loves company, and you find it here in this section of BF. I get it.
Practice active listening, be kind, considerate, and respectful to makers, and double or triple check your order with them if necessary. Is this really so difficult? Good luck everyone.
You guys are so self entitled you think that makers should be Ssooooo happy that you want one of their knives, and that they should put up with your crap just to sell one. Really though, some makers don't want or need you as a customer if they don't like you. They can pick and choose who they make knives for for whatever reason they want to, and they can demand anything they want to. Be kind, be considerate, and don't be a dick when things don't go exactly the way you want or "agreed to." Or, like some of you are suggesting, go around making demands from makers and have the sense of entitlement that makes you feel proud. It's your choice.
BTW I have already paid for and received my butcher. No issues, and Andre was super helpful. That is really the focus of my argument here, but you guys don't care, you just want to complain. Misery loves company, and you find it here in this section of BF. I get it.
Practice active listening, be kind, considerate, and respectful to makers, and double or triple check your order with them if necessary. Is this really so difficult? Good luck everyone.
You're an ignorant punk, plain and simple. It's rare when someone complains about a knife they received and when they do they complain for a good reason whether it was the quality of the knife or the service they received. I bet you won't be so quick to judge people who have had bad experiences when you have one yourself.
Did you even bother to properly read this thread before spewing your useless vomit? Andre should have been clear in his pricing and let the OP know that the extra work he wanted was more expensive. Andre is the one at fault here, if anyone is putting up with crap it's the OP. And when something doesn't go as AGREED why shouldn't we be upset? An agreement is an agreement that should always be honored by both parties period.
Good for you, it's a shame Andre wasn't as helpful to the OP as he was with you.
No it's not.
We all know you will be checking this thread again as soon as you log back on. Stop lying to yourself.
If you read the whole thread and especially the part where andre threatened his customer you might think differently. He also shouldn't be kissing anyone's arse that he paid money to. Unless it's a hooker. ADV is not rj Martin, stan wilson, direware, jake hoback, hinderer, onion & a lot more top level knife makers that anyone should be kissing arse to and begging them to take their money. A maker of rj martin's level would never treat people like adv did. I know this because I've been dealing with them and they don't treat me like its a blessing to own their knives.
Can't wait to youngest yhe other side of the shoe, it's only time for a guy like adv to give you the same treatment. Accept no one will give 2 arses because of your attitude when someone else got boned.
I been burned by mechanics, shops ect before, surprised you guys don't finish transactions with "just to confirm, I'm getting the black blade, black finish, no holes, that's $450. Is this correct?
Learned this long time ago. I always take situations like this as $17 lessons... when you grown up in a place where everyone is out to get you, you learn quickly.
Learned this long time ago. I always take situations like this as $17 lessons... when you grown up in a place where everyone is out to get you, you learn quickly.
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