Angle sharpener vs freehand

Tapio said:
Pretty good result for an inexperienced free hand sharpener using a cheap whetstone. However, most likely stropping is a big factor in that test. A loaded strop eats cheap steel really fast and the measure sharpness is a result of stropping. One could sat that every time the final sharpening in done free hand.

I had to google that preloaded clip because those numbers seemed too good to be true. The manufacturers manual tells that you are correct. “In their unaltered state Test Clips will generate a very reliable 20% deviation (lower and across all measurement ranges) than the BESS Standard. To convert a Test Clip measurement to a BESS measurement simply multiply the test clip result by (1.2).“

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Yes I think he did great by hand! I also agree about stropping... I've only been freehand sharpening for about five months, and straight off stones my BESS scores are around 170, but stropping brings them to around 120, and can take them below 100 in some cases.
 
DeadboxHero said:
For instance saying that the bevels will be more uneven with freehand or that freehand always removes more metal.

I would be interested in seeing the data from your testing.
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I don't know about removing more metal, but no matter how good you are with freehand sharpening, the bevels will never be as even as a guided system.
 
tokerblue said:
I don't know about removing more metal, but no matter how good you are with freehand sharpening, the bevels will never be as even as a guided system.
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Freehand sharpened bevels may not be as even, but they can be very, very sharp.
This video talks about freehand bevels and how they aren't precise to the degree (like guided systems), but that doesn't make them intrinsically not sharp. The maker of this video, really knows his stuff, and uses guided systems and sharpens freehand. You've probably all seen the YouTube videos of sharpening wizards with a stone in one hand and knife in the other. You can see the stone moving and there's no way the bevel is going to be a flat V bevel. But the finished edge whittles hair like crazy. I don't know if freehand or guided is better, but it seems extreme sharpness is possible either way.
 
d.cutting.edge said:
Yes I think he did great by hand! I also agree about stropping... I've only been freehand sharpening for about five months, and straight off stones my BESS scores are around 170, but stropping brings them to around 120, and can take them below 100 in some cases.
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Usuba, freehand to 12k naniwa super stone.
 
DeadboxHero said:

Usuba, freehand to 12k naniwa super stone.
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Mind blown. I have no idea how to get into this territory with the pocket knives that I sharpen. Mostly Spyderco's with Venev resin bonded diamond stones and 1 + 0.125 micron strops. I struggle to get below 100. I know who you are, and your videos have been very, very helpful to me. Thank you!
 
Tapio said:
Is this an even bevel or a freehand bevel?
https://imgur.com/a/eAFke4P

How about this?
https://imgur.com/EG6UctQ
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I'm guessing you're showing me some freehand bevels, but I can't tell how even they are from those pictures. In hand, I could tell you right away any place it wasn't even. Under a loupe, the difference would be even more pronounced. Not to mention, I'm not sure exactly what your post is trying to prove. The number of people who could do a really even bevels is miniscule compared to the number who could do it on a guided system.
 
tokerblue said:
I'm guessing you're showing me some freehand bevels, but I can't tell how even they are from those pictures. In hand, I could tell you right away any place it wasn't even. Under a loupe, the difference would be even more pronounced. Not to mention, I'm not sure exactly what your post is trying to prove. The number of people who could do a really even bevels is miniscule compared to the number who could do it on a guided system.
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Only a flat surfce works well as a plane mirror. A scandi grind is really easy to keep even free hand. Just lay the bevel on a flat whetstone and the bevels will be straight. No skill required. A guided system doesn’t help at all.
 
d.cutting.edge said:
Freehand sharpened bevels may not be as even, but they can be very, very sharp.
This video talks about freehand bevels and how they aren't precise to the degree (like guided systems), but that doesn't make them intrinsically not sharp. The maker of this video, really knows his stuff, and uses guided systems and sharpens freehand. You've probably all seen the YouTube videos of sharpening wizards with a stone in one hand and knife in the other. You can see the stone moving and there's no way the bevel is going to be a flat V bevel. But the finished edge whittles hair like crazy. I don't know if freehand or guided is better, but it seems extreme sharpness is possible either way.
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What kind of stones is he using in this video? They are sprayed with water, but don't appear soaked like water stones. Ceramic maybe?
 
Sharp Steel said:
What kind of stones is he using in this video? They are sprayed with water, but don't appear soaked like water stones. Ceramic maybe?
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Many water stones are like that. They are often called splash and go stones. I use almost solely splash and go stones.
 
gazz98 said:
I've been free hand sharpening for years. I consider myself slightly above mediocre :p . I can get a sharp edge. It might not be pretty but it's sharp. That is good enough for me. I don't chase the mirror polish like some do.

I also like to encourage folks to get into free hand sharpening. I feel that is becoming a lost art nowadays.

Another benefit of free hand sharpening. If you are camping or hiking for any length of time, you can keep your tools sharp with just a pocket stone. It is easy to leave a sharpening stone in a camper, cabin, go bag, tackle box, vehicle, etc. for anything that might come up. I prefer a double sided stone or one of those folding types with a handle and 2 grits as well.

My free hand sharpening system cost me a little over $100 IIRC.
$90 for the DMT DiaSharp 6" diamond stone kit. 4 grits on 2 stones.
$10 for green stropping compound.
$5-8 for a wide, leather belt from Goodwill that I turned into a strop.
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this is my favorite example of why to learn freehand regardless of if you plan to use a guided system. if your going on a long fishing trip or a weeks hunt, maybe a week camping, it seems rather painstaking to take a guided system with you, or bring 2 extra knives with perfect edges just cause if you put your knife to a stone it gets duller. one could always buy crazy good steel so maybe a knife would last a few weeks but its still so rewarding to take edges to razor sharp freehand. to each their own, while my edge will never be as square to the stone as a guided system, you can still offset your apex by overhoning on one side, or more pressure on one side vs the other. anyone who freehands seriously starts to pay attention to bevel heights on both sides im guessing, because even sharp its pretty ugly to have a blade with a 1/16" tall bevel on one side at 23⁰ and a 3/16" tall bevel on the other at 12⁰
 
311climber said:
this is my favorite example of why to learn freehand regardless of if you plan to use a guided system. if your going on a long fishing trip or a weeks hunt, maybe a week camping, it seems rather painstaking to take a guided system with you, or bring 2 extra knives with perfect edges just cause if you put your knife to a stone it gets duller. one could always buy crazy good steel so maybe a knife would last a few weeks but its still so rewarding to take edges to razor sharp freehand. to each their own, while my edge will never be as square to the stone as a guided system, you can still offset your apex by overhoning on one side, or more pressure on one side vs the other. anyone who freehands seriously starts to pay attention to bevel heights on both sides im guessing, because even sharp its pretty ugly to have a blade with a 1/16" tall bevel on one side at 23⁰ and a 3/16" tall bevel on the other at 12⁰
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A nice edge / bevel should only require stropping to bring back ..
Unless the edge has taken damage ( Bushcrafting ? ) .. Then I never go bush / camping / hunting / what ever outdoorsy with only one knife .
Always been a 3 knife kind of guy - myself ! Even from the earliest days .. ( 1981 ) Belt knife / Mora in a bum bag / and a Pocket knife ( Victorinox )
Only two things changed over time , the belt knife and the pocket knife . But there was always a Mora in the bum bag .

Free hand VS the rest !
A) You do what works for you
B) The only right or wrong is a knife that's not sharp
C) Field sharpening ........... ? Strop it .. I personally had a small ceramic rod ( fine ) , that I used to touch up an edge .. Worked great for a time , then when it got too hard for the ceramic rod I went back to the stone ..

But that was a long time ago ... Now I use guided knife sharpeners ...
1) Exact edge geometry ( angle )
2) Much more accurate ( straight )
3) Easier
4) Repeatable
5) Longer lasting ( edge holding )
6) Less material loss over time as the edge strops back strong
 
311climber said:
this is my favorite example of why to learn freehand regardless of if you plan to use a guided system. if your going on a long fishing trip or a weeks hunt, maybe a week camping, it seems rather painstaking to take a guided system with you, or bring 2 extra knives with perfect edges just cause if you put your knife to a stone it gets duller. one could always buy crazy good steel so maybe a knife would last a few weeks but its still so rewarding to take edges to razor sharp freehand. to each their own, while my edge will never be as square to the stone as a guided system, you can still offset your apex by overhoning on one side, or more pressure on one side vs the other. anyone who freehands seriously starts to pay attention to bevel heights on both sides im guessing, because even sharp its pretty ugly to have a blade with a 1/16" tall bevel on one side at 23⁰ and a 3/16" tall bevel on the other at 12⁰
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Yep, everyone should be able to freehand sharpen.
 
old4570 said:
A nice edge / bevel should only require stropping to bring back ..
Unless the edge has taken damage ( Bushcrafting ? ) .. Then I never go bush / camping / hunting / what ever outdoorsy with only one knife .
Always been a 3 knife kind of guy - myself ! Even from the earliest days .. ( 1981 ) Belt knife / Mora in a bum bag / and a Pocket knife ( Victorinox )
Only two things changed over time , the belt knife and the pocket knife . But there was always a Mora in the bum bag .

Free hand VS the rest !
A) You do what works for you
B) The only right or wrong is a knife that's not sharp
C) Field sharpening ........... ? Strop it .. I personally had a small ceramic rod ( fine ) , that I used to touch up an edge .. Worked great for a time , then when it got too hard for the ceramic rod I went back to the stone ..

But that was a long time ago ... Now I use guided knife sharpeners ...
1) Exact edge geometry ( angle )
2) Much more accurate ( straight )
3) Easier
4) Repeatable
5) Longer lasting ( edge holding )
6) Less material loss over time as the edge strops back strong
Click to expand...
im not saying im not a three knife guy, infact with how i pack, it wouldnt be unusual if i had brought the guided system and the kitchen sink. im just saying even outdoors without a man made stone, or strop or guided system if you get decent with geometry of keeping an angle you could even pick up a river stone. i fully support your reasons. who wants to waste material i mean you know, and we could go back and forth on good reasons for either, i like the convience of bringing a 1000-2300 grit stone that barely removes metal as i keen up an edge in the field. you have to think a week of deboning anything can really mess up an apex if your like me carrying steels like 1095 with lower rockwells. no offence to those who charish guided systems, but i feel thats because those gave up before reaching those levels freehand. move back to a video by bigbrownbear and were talking sharp. if you get that type of sharp without a system, typically its quite a feeling of accomplishment of the task at hand...ah that old attaboy feeling....:)
 
I did mention a ceramic rod ..
Got mine some time in the 80's , so near on 40 years now !
For sharpening in the field , that ceramic rod was brilliant . Just a few passes each way and you had a freshened edge .
I still have that ceramic rod , best money spent ever !

Two decades later thanks to Ebay , I got my hands on some Eze Laps .. These were $5 bananas or something when I found them .. Pictured are two still new in the packet and around 20 years old !
The ones I use ( used pre guided knife sharpener ) are the full set of 4 grades . I still use them on my scandi edges .
These Eze Laps and that ceramic rod are very easy to carry in the field , and work . ( I don't know about a river stone )
I would not take a guided knife sharpener into the field . But then I wont knock those who want the full bushcraft / survival experience either !
Though , I myself have never sharpened a knife on a rock ... Thought about it , but all those rocks were so Mickey Mouse ( not suitable ) and back in the day I didn't go bush to bushcraft .
A little like shaving with your hunting knife , thought about it but never tried it ( much ) .

IGP1822.jpg
 
I didn't read through all of this and don't plan to. The question being asked is one that is difficult for most to answer because they either don't have the knowledge or don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Me? I have the knowledge, experience, knives sharpened and now... the maturity to not care if I hurt someone's feelings (with honesty).

When it comes to sharpening we have taken a simple task and made it difficult. We all learn to walk, drive, make food and various other complex tasks that we call daily life but literally the Bronze age was 4000 years ago and knife sharpening is still the most butchered (by opinion) topic on the internet and now, everyone thinks thats its too hard and they need some $1000 guided device and a 0.25 micron polished edge. Sharpening is literally holding a blade at an "angle" to make a flat surface against a flat surface (the stone). If you stop thinking of the bevel as an angle and think of it as a flat surface that you need to keep flat on a stone you will change your sharpening. Grind two flat surfaces to an apex and clean the apex.

The Guided sharpener is still not at the hand sharpening level, it does not have the fluid movement, on the fly angle control, ability to Feel what the stone is doing to the edge or the Feel what problems the edge has. It cannot do a Touch-up on a fine stone by just barely floating the bevel over the stone cleaning up problems at the apex and leaving you with a sharp knife. Ask any guided sharpened to Touch-up an edge and they will need angle guides, a marker for the edge and several attempts to find the apex of the bevel, basically needing to resharpen the whole bevel.

Are there those that have used a guided sharpener that can manage to get past the problems? probably, but they will be more difficult to overcome and with the task of sharpening there will be limited options because the Guided sharpener is limited by the abilities of the device they use. With hand sharpening being a free and unrestricted operation the abilities of a hand sharpener are endless, I have no angle restrictions, I don't need to know my angle, I can sharpen anything with a flat stone, I can do it anywhere and I can improvise because I have built a base of skill and knowledge that does not require any machines to assist me.

The original question,
Whats better long term? Well, Its hand sharpening and knowledge. The guided machine is just that, a machine with limited abilities that forces you to do what it was designed to do and don't forget, you NEED the device or you can't sharpen. Freehand sharpening is just that, its free, unrestricted by any device or angle allowing you to do as much or as little as needed at any given time. Its also a skill that makes you better at using your fine motor skills in other aspects of life.
 
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