Angle sharpener vs freehand

[Blues]

The question being asked is one that is difficult for most to answer because they either don't have the knowledge or don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Me? I have the knowledge, experience, knives sharpened and now... the maturity to not care if I hurt someone's feelings.

I have great respect for your ability, Jason, and have learned much from your posts over the years...but I will have to disagree that not caring whether you hurt someone's feelings is a sign of "maturity".

That said, I do agree that the "truth" as we know, or believe it to be, is better than perpetuating falsehoods.

 

[Jason B.]

I have great respect for your ability, Jason, and have learned much from your posts over the years...but I will have to disagree that not caring whether you hurt someone's feelings is a sign of "maturity".

That said, I do agree that the "truth" as we know, or believe it to be, is better than perpetuating falsehoods.

You always were better with words than I

 

[3D Anvil]

In my view, one is not better than the other. Both have their place. I like a guided system to set an initial bevel. No matter how good you are, you cannot match the precision of a guided system. That doesn't mean you can't get a knife as sharp, but it won't have the same perfect bevel. Some people don't like that look, or they may believe that a convex bevel has advantages, but I like the flat bevel. It also makes it easier to do touch-ups on stones, because it's easier to feel the proper angle when the bevel is flat. And having said that, it's not a big deal to do touch-ups on a guided system. Yes, setup might take a couple minutes, but the whole process takes maybe five minutes.

 

[Twindog]

I didn't read through all of this and don't plan to. The question being asked is one that is difficult for most to answer because they either don't have the knowledge or don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Me? I have the knowledge, experience, knives sharpened and now... the maturity to not care if I hurt someone's feelings.

When it comes to sharpening we have taken a simple task and made it difficult. We all learn to walk, drive, make food and various other complex tasks that we call daily life but literally the Bronze age was 4000 years ago and knife sharpening is still the most butchered (by opinion) topic on the internet and now, everyone thinks thats its too hard and they need some $1000 guided device and a 0.25 micron polished edge. Sharpening is literally holding a blade at an "angle" to make a flat surface against a flat surface (the stone). If you stop thinking of the bevel as an angle and think of it as a flat surface that you need to keep flat on a stone you will change your sharpening. Grind two flat surfaces to an apex and clean the apex.

The Guided sharpener is still not at the hand sharpening level, it does not have the fluid movement, on the fly angle control, ability to Feel what the stone is doing to the edge or the Feel what problems the edge has. It cannot do a Touch-up on a fine stone by just barely floating the bevel over the stone cleaning up problems at the apex and leaving you with a sharp knife. Ask any guided sharpened to Touch-up an edge and they will need angle guides, a marker for the edge and several attempts to find the apex of the bevel, basically needing to resharpen the whole bevel.

Are there those that have used a guided sharpener that can manage to get past the problems? probably, but they will be more difficult to overcome and with the task of sharpening there will be limited options because the Guided sharpener is limited by the abilities of the device they use. With hand sharpening being a free and unrestricted operation the abilities of a hand sharpener are endless, I have no angle restrictions, I don't need to know my angle, I can sharpen anything with a flat stone, I can do it anywhere and I can improvise because I have built a base of skill and knowledge that does not require any machines to assist me.

The original question,
Whats better long term? Well, Its hand sharpening and knowledge. The guided machine is just that, a machine with limited abilities that forces you to do what it was designed to do and don't forget, you NEED the device or you can't sharpen. Freehand sharpening is just that, its free, unrestricted by any device or angle allowing you to do as much or as little as needed at any given time. Its also a skill that makes you better at using your fine motor skills in other aspects of life.

You would have benefited from reading the thread -- but, as you said, you just don't care. Someone such as yourself, who has sharpened a zillion knives freehand, will like that system and be very, very good at it.

But my best slicing knives have edges at 5 to 7 thousandths wide. Not one person in a thousand can feel the flatness of that bevel. When I set my initial bevel, I always use a guided system and get a perfect, even bevel at a known angle. You say you don't need that guidance because you can feel the edge. But resetting the initial, factory-imperfect edge calls for a new bevel, not matching the imperfect one we bought.

There is a place for both freehanding and guided systems. I do both.

Yes, people have been freehanding sharp edges for ages. They have also been using jigs for ages. The right tool for the right job -- and that right tool depends on the job and the person's experience and abilities.

 

[Jason B.]

You would have benefited from reading the thread -- but, as you said, you just don't care. Someone such as yourself, who has sharpened a zillion knives freehand, will like that system and be very, very good at it.

Its not that I didn't care, I just don't have the time to read through all that. I've tried several systems in my time and TBH it the flat bevel I despise. In my experience it fails easier and it more difficult to maintain, but that's me, I prefer the slight convex of a hand sharpened edge.

But my best slicing knives have edges at 5 to 7 thousandths wide. Not one person in a thousand can feel the flatness of that bevel. When I set my initial bevel, I always use a guided system and get a perfect, even bevel at a known angle. You say you don't need that guidance because you can feel the edge. But resetting the initial, factory-imperfect edge calls for a new bevel, not matching the imperfect one we bought.

I always wash away the factory bevel and have always advocated to do so. Setting a flat edge with a coarse stone is always step one.

There is a place for both freehanding and guided systems. I do both.

True but, the op asked what was better in the long run and IMO and years of experience it always appears as hand sharpening done properly makes the knife last the longest.

Yes, people have been freehanding sharp edges for ages. They have also been using jigs for ages. The right tool for the right job -- and that right tool depends on the job and the person's experience and abilities.

Agreed.

 

[sharp_edge]

I recently bought a Yoshikane gyuto that has the thinnest edge that I have ever seen. It is so thin that it is difficult to see clearly the edge bevel by my naked eyes. Hopefully when the microscope arrived later today I can see it better. Anyway, I have absolutely zero confidence with my free-hand sharpening ability to match the factory bevel, and I do not have a guided sharpener to handle such a long knife (240mm). I have not decided if I'll keep and use it or move just it because of this.

No disrespect at all but I think Jason B makes this difficult task (free hand sharpening, to many people) sound easier than it is. Yes - we are matching/fitting two flat surfaces when sharpening but that is where exactly the difficulties lie in, especially when (1) the two flat surfaces are moving constantly relative to each other, (2) one flat surface (the edge bevel) sometimes is very narrow (e.g., my Yoshikane), and (3) one flat surface is not a straight flat surface, e.g., recurve and belly. Also it is difficult because most often we want a super clean, even, and symmetric edge bevel.

Years of experience definitely help. For me I just don't know how many years of experience or more precisely experience of sharpening how many knives will make free hand sharpening produce the results at the same level as guided sharpeners (not the crappy ones but reasonably good ones like EP or WE).

 

[garry3]

I recently bought a Yoshikane gyuto that has the thinnest edge that I have ever seen. It is so thin that it is difficult to see clearly the edge bevel by my naked eyes. Hopefully when the microscope arrived later today I can see it better. Anyway, I have absolutely zero confidence with my free-hand sharpening ability to match the factory bevel, and I do not have a guided sharpener to handle such a long knife (240mm). I have not decided if I'll keep and use it or move just it because of this.

No disrespect at all but I think Jason B makes this difficult task (free hand sharpening, to many people) sound easier than it is. Yes - we are matching/fitting two flat surfaces when sharpening but that is where exactly the difficulties lie in, especially when (1) the two flat surfaces are moving constantly relative to each other, (2) one flat surface (the edge bevel) sometimes is very narrow (e.g., my Yoshikane), and (3) one flat surface is not a straight flat surface, e.g., recurve and belly. Also it is difficult because most often we want a super clean, even, and symmetric edge bevel.

Years of experience definitely help. For me I just don't know how many years of experience or more precisely experience of sharpening how many knives will make free hand sharpening produce the results at the same level as guided sharpeners (not the crappy ones but reasonably good ones like EP or WE).

That's sad, it would really be a shame to send it back. You are already getting paralysis by over analysis. It's a tool, use it and enjoy.

You will not ruin it if you can't match the factory angle or if you scratch it.

Keep it simple. Here is a thread from another forum with some beginner video tutorials that are very good. They start out by talking about cleavers but there is a very good demonstration there sharpening a gyuto.
It's all just sharpening and you can do it too.

First sharpening advice

I plan to sharpen a knife tomorrow for the first time. It is a CCK 1303 carbon cleaver. I have a Shapton Pro 1K stone. I am wondering what angle is the best to aim for? Should I use a Sharpie? Any advice would be much appreciated.

www.kitchenknifeforums.com

 

[sharp_edge]

That's sad, it would really be a shame to send it back. You are already getting paralysis by over analysis. It's a tool, use it and enjoy.

You will not ruin it if you can't match the factory angle or if you scratch it.

Keep it simple. Here is a thread from another forum with some beginner video tutorials that are very good. They start out by talking about cleavers but there is a very good demonstration there sharpening a gyuto.
It's all just sharpening and you can do it too.

First sharpening advice

I plan to sharpen a knife tomorrow for the first time. It is a CCK 1303 carbon cleaver. I have a Shapton Pro 1K stone. I am wondering what angle is the best to aim for? Should I use a Sharpie? Any advice would be much appreciated.

www.kitchenknifeforums.com

This knife is a bit expensive to me (~$350). I've been using and sharpening with confidence a few other chef's knives in the $100-$200 range. It is just its crazily thin edge that makes me hesitate. Maybe I should find a cheap gyuto with similar edge thickness to practice first.

 

[Jason B.]

This knife is a bit expensive to me (~$350). I've been using and sharpening with confidence a few other chef's knives in the $100-$200 range. It is just its crazily thin edge that makes me hesitate. Maybe I should find a cheap gyuto with similar edge thickness to practice first.

The thin edge will make it easier to sharpen than any other knife you pick. To practice on anything else will only skew the perception of how such a knife will sharpen. I would start with a 1k and finish on a 4k, then enjoy. It will be very easy and quick if the bevel is as thin as you say, a few minutes at best with each stone should be all it takes.

 

[garry3]

This knife is a bit expensive to me (~$350). I've been using and sharpening with confidence a few other chef's knives in the $100-$200 range. It is just its crazily thin edge that makes me hesitate. Maybe I should find a cheap gyuto with similar edge thickness to practice first.

It would be an expensive knife to me also and practice is always a good idea.
Them thin knife's are actually pretty easy to sharpen and good steel at higher RC doesn't hurt either.

Don't get hung up on wanting the bevel to look even. It simply can't happen when the knife isn't the same thickness from heel to tip. Some of them knife's are also ground different from one side to the other.

Here is a gyuto of mine that is kind of a cross between a western and Japanese knife. It has some thickness to it making it durable for some rough work but it also has some traits that you might see with Japanese knife's. It's convex on one side and slightly concave on the other. It also thins down towards the tip. The bevel can not appear to be even on such a knife. It will vary in thickness from one side to the other and also heel to tip. I would imagine it would make some here lose their minds. If the bevel its self looks kind of odd here it's because I sharpen them at two different angles approximating a convex edge.

 

[catspa]

What Jason said makes a lot of sense to me, basically because I’ve believed the same for a long time. I would also observe that nowadays he can’t say “I have a sharp knife” without hurting somebody’s feelings. I think he does the right thing by calling it as he sees it, and not appeasing the feelings of the irrational among us.

So I think we’ve established that some guided systems can produce more even (i.e. matching each other) bevels than many people can hold freehand. The question is, does that matter? Before you say, “Of course it does, you moron!” (don’t worry about hurting my feelings, I left them behind me long ago), kindly consider the chisel and plane iron blades. Sufficiently sharp to cut a wood shaving you can read a newspaper through (a fun Neanderthal trick), they have only one bevel. The other side is flat, or within a few thousandths.

So each individual must decide for themselves the importance of “even” bevels for each steel/heat treat/geometry. If this particular knife needs them, set up the guided system. If not, down the freehand road I go.

Just like Ford vs Chevy, Colt vs Smith, Cheerios vs corn flakes, this is a question that can produce volumes of discussion without a clear winner.

To the OP: there is no universal “better”, there’s just “better for you” - considering your own situation and preferences. Fast or slow, cheap or expensive, high tech or old school, all choices YOU will make on the path to getting and keeping YOUR knife sharp. Not exclusive choices either, you can mix and match a wide range of abrasives with no penalty. You can switch back and forth between methods any time you choose.

My path to sharp, or Jason’s or Garry’s, might not be the best for you. We’ll all probably continue refining our own best practices until the day we can no longer lift knife, and then somebody else will take up our gear and knives, and the whole process will start over for them while we’re being fed applesauce with a spoon. It’s all circular.

Parker

 

[DeadboxHero]

T Twindog

"The best slicing knives have a bevel 5-7 thousands wide"

That parameter is not enough information. We can have a thick grind on something with a really obtuse edge angle that will have a bevel that width and it's not going to slice very good.

"Perfect, even bevel"

The guided system is not the only factor for a "perfect bevel" you are also at the mercy of how even the grind is, there are plenty of production knives that have uneven grinds that when you put them on a guided system one bevel will be wider than the other despite the fact that the same angle is used.

One can also have wider and thinner bevels on the same side depending on how even the bevel was ground which you can notice very quickly when you pull the edge back on a guided system to <15°dps
One can also see this with thicker bevels at the tip, especially if the grind doesn't have a distal taper towards the tip. Meanwhile, freehand can flow with the grind inconsistencies better if the goal is an even looking bevel width.

"Resetting the intial, factory-imperfect edge calls for a new bevel, not matching the imperfect one we bought"

This statement can be misconstrued that if you freehand you're not setting a new bevel. Well, nothing is stopping a freehand sharpener from pulling the edge back or making it more thick as needed.


Here are some other points I think are necessary to bring up.


1. You can sharpen a much wider range of tools and blades freehand then you can with a guided system.

Japanese single bevels, scandinavian Grinds yard tools, commercial kitchen appliances, etc

While there are specialized jigs everything adds up in time and money to have a special jig for everything.


2. Set up time and requirements.

Some of these different kinds of blades are not always compatible with certain guided systems. Guilded systems that use clamps can have quite a bit of fiddling depending on the knife and clamp used. Using angle cubes, taping blades up, etc also slows things down considerably. Often some folk opt to take their folding knives apart to sharpen. Not very convenient.

3. Using a guided system removes more steel to make a flatter bevel than a freehand convex one.

This also means it takes more time, especially with the smaller stones.

4. The small stones and working in small areas can make a kitchen knife profile wacky.

Recurving can be an issue since you can work an area too much with those tiny stones versus being able to flow with the entire profile on the stone and fix any profile issues.

If there is a recurve issue it can be extremely difficult to fix with a guided system and under minutes to fix freehand on a stone.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I think it's also important to point out that I'm not marginalizing people that use a guided system.

There is still a significant learning curve to using a guided system to get good results and often its passed off as needing training wheels on a bicycle if you use a guided system.

Which also means its not necessarily easier to learn how to sharpen with a guided system.

I started with freehand and eventually learned how to use an edge pro system which wasn't as easy as I expected.

There is a skill to using a guided system.

I must say, there are quite a bit of nuisances between freehand and using a guided system that also doesnt really cross over.

As Josey@Twindog said, "the right tool for the right job" I agree.

 

[garry3]

What Jason said makes a lot of sense to me, basically because I’ve believed the same for a long time. I would also observe that nowadays he can’t say “I have a sharp knife” without hurting somebody’s feelings. I think he does the right thing by calling it as he sees it, and not appeasing the feelings of the irrational among us.

So I think we’ve established that some guided systems can produce more even (i.e. matching each other) bevels than many people can hold freehand. The question is, does that matter? Before you say, “Of course it does, you moron!” (don’t worry about hurting my feelings, I left them behind me long ago), kindly consider the chisel and plane iron blades. Sufficiently sharp to cut a wood shaving you can read a newspaper through (a fun Neanderthal trick), they have only one bevel. The other side is flat, or within a few thousandths.

So each individual must decide for themselves the importance of “even” bevels for each steel/heat treat/geometry. If this particular knife needs them, set up the guided system. If not, down the freehand road I go.

Just like Ford vs Chevy, Colt vs Smith, Cheerios vs corn flakes, this is a question that can produce volumes of discussion without a clear winner.

To the OP: there is no universal “better”, there’s just “better for you” - considering your own situation and preferences. Fast or slow, cheap or expensive, high tech or old school, all choices YOU will make on the path to getting and keeping YOUR knife sharp. Not exclusive choices either, you can mix and match a wide range of abrasives with no penalty. You can switch back and forth between methods any time you choose.

My path to sharp, or Jason’s or Garry’s, might not be the best for you. We’ll all probably continue refining our own best practices until the day we can no longer lift knife, and then somebody else will take up our gear and knives, and the whole process will start over for them while we’re being fed applesauce with a spoon. It’s all circular.

Parker

Whatever path we are on it's better than most. How many people out there are using dead dull knifes? I think the vast majority. Even a pull through knife sharpener is better than nothing.

My intentions in this thread has been to encourage others to try free hand sharpening and to dispel some myths about it being some kind of black art that takes years of practice.
I don't know that I have been successful. Hopefully I've reached someone.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

One thing about freehand is that the existing factory bevels really don't matter anymore. There's no pressure or reason to exactly match them at all. The notion that the existing factory bevels have to be exactly matched in resharpening is irrational. And it unnecessarily makes sharpening much more complicated than it needs to be.

Part of freehand sharpening is discovering that new bevels can be created at an angle and a hold on the blade that feels natural to the hands. Past a certain point, I figured out that my natural tendencies for holding the knife always produced edge angles in the 30° - 25° inclusive ballpark, which is essentially perfect for my needs and for the knives I sharpen. In essence, this is the ultimate way to make the knife your own in the truest sense. Creating the bevels at an angle that feels intuitively natural for your hands will lend itself to more easily maintaining the edge after the fact, because the new bevels are already set up for what you find natural and comfortable. And then beyond that, it also becomes easier to take the geometry a bit thinner and the edge a little bit more acute with very subtle adjustments to your hold on the blade. These subtle adjustments also make it easier to correct small imbalances in held angle from side to side, if you notice some unevenness to them in the earlier stages of learning. Things really start to click in freehand, when you reach that point where you can look at what's happening and intuitively correct it on the fly.

And the so-called 'bevels' produced in freehand don't even have to be flat either. Acquiring the feel for the difference in contact between the 'bevel' and the point where the apex just begins to dig into the stone is what makes it possible to limit any angle variation to the steel behind the edge, and not directly into it. This means the apex can still be maintained and protected in its extreme sharpness, while the 'bevels' behind the edge take on a little bit of convex. And that convex behind the apex can actually be an enhancement to effortless cutting and not a degradation to it. Sometimes hard & crisp bevel shoulders get in the way of smooth cutting, more than they help it.

 

[garry3]

One thing about freehand is that the existing factory bevels really don't matter anymore. There's no pressure or reason to exactly match them at all. The notion that the existing factory bevels have to be exactly matched in resharpening is irrational. And it unnecessarily makes sharpening much more complicated than it needs to be.

Part of freehand sharpening is discovering that new bevels can be created at an angle and a hold on the blade that feels natural to the hands. Past a certain point, I figured out that my natural tendencies for holding the knife always produced edge angles in the 30° - 25° inclusive ballpark, which is essentially perfect for my needs and for the knives I sharpen. In essence, this is the ultimate way to make the knife your own in the truest sense. Creating the bevels at an angle that feels intuitively natural for your hands will lend itself to more easily maintaining the edge after the fact, because the new bevels are already set up for what you find natural and comfortable. And then beyond that, it also becomes easier to take the geometry a bit thinner and the edge a little bit more acute with very subtle adjustments to your hold on the blade. These subtle adjustments also make it easier to correct small imbalances in held angle from side to side, if you notice some unevenness to them in the earlier stages of learning. Things really start to click in freehand, when you reach that point where you can look at what's happening and intuitively correct it on the fly.

And the so-called 'bevels' produced in freehand don't even have to be flat either. Acquiring the feel for the difference in contact between the 'bevel' and the point where the apex just begins to dig into the stone is what makes it possible to limit any angle variation to the steel behind the edge, and not directly into it. This means the apex can still be maintained and protected in its extreme sharpness, while the 'bevels' behind the edge take on a little bit of convex. And that convex behind the apex can actually be an enhancement to effortless cutting and not a degradation to it. Sometimes hard & crisp bevel shoulders get in the way of smooth cutting, more than they help it.

I notice a difference in all but the thinnest blades or really acute angles. I just lay the blade a little flatter to the stone than intended until it is almost sharp and then tilt it up to my intended degree. I can touch it up a few times from there until I do it all over again.

 

[catspa]

You could probably do that on some guided systems, but not without a bunch of fiddling around.

Parker

 

[Tapio]

No matter how good you are, you cannot match the precision of a guided system.

How about sharpening a straight razor or flattening the back of a chisel/plane?

 

[3D Anvil]

How about sharpening a straight razor or flattening the back of a chisel/plane?

A straight razor effectively has a built-in guided sharpening system. But yeah, a chisel or a knife with scandi grind (or just a huge bevel) can be free-hand sharpened with total precision.

 

[toker]

How about sharpening a straight razor or flattening the back of a chisel/plane?

It's already been posted. Use the guided system for the main angle. Use a stone to knock off the burr. Just like you would freehand.

2. Set up time and requirements.

Some of these different kinds of blades are not always compatible with certain guided systems. Guilded systems that use clamps can have quite a bit of fiddling depending on the knife and clamp used. Using angle cubes, taping blades up, etc also slows things down considerably. Often some folk opt to take their folding knives apart to sharpen. Not very convenient.

With something like the Wicked Edge, you can just write down the settings you used for each knife. Setup takes seconds.