Another questionable situation

man - i dont know if i woulda forked over the extra $50 the first time, certainly wouldnt the second time.

i have been lucky, i guess, but every single maker i have ever dealt with has always treated me withe the utmost respect, answering stupid questions (ie asking darrel ralph how many maxx series knives he had made - answer? 47, all models) fixing my knives for little/nothing if i have problems, answer email promptly, return calls, i mean i just cant say a bad word about any of the dealers i have dealt with. and the craziest thing is i havent bought a single knife from a dealer, always second hand, i mean, what do they owe me, really? pat fixed a KFF i had bought from jaxurman, all scuffed up, and BB the thing to where it looked LNIB, rebuilt the liner lock, and threw in a belt sheath when i mentioned i didnt have one, i didnt ask, he just shipped the knife w/it. AND shipped it w/out payment (either labor or shipping) just a bill for $28.99!! i woulda payed that for the sheath!!and just to trust me to mail the $$, ya dont do business with people like that everyday. pat crawford, a good guy to deal with.

might as well name them, ya see enough bad, some good never hurts imho, pat crawford, darrel ralph, and bud nealy

greg
 
Hello Danbo
Here is my contribution from Switzerland to this discussion:
First of all, the knife looks great but I guess you will get a bad feeling everytime you look at it. THIS IS SAD.

Now I wonder if the ABS also take back an MS stamp for such bad business practics? Really would like to have an answer on this...

Something else bothering me: Checked out the books KNIVES 2001 and KNIVES 2002. This maker has a knife and a tomahawk in these books.
In KNIVES 2001 he is mentioned as an ABS member with MS stamp. In KNIVES 2002 his name is NOT on the ABS memberlist!
The publisher just forgot about him or there was some typing mistake??? OR IS HE NOT A MEMBER ANYMORE?

Just got me thinking this whole crap.... :mad:

Stay save
 
more people have gone bankrupt keeping their end of the bargain on a set price than we will ever know................


its too bad the guy doesnt have a clue! :rolleyes:
 
I don't know, looks like a $600 knife to me.
The maker should have estimated a little better. Once the deal is made your reputation is on the line. I guess it's
threads like this that keep everyone inline,
however I think I would have kept this deal private. If your not willing to pay the
extra $100 it's your right to back out of
the deal. Since you supplied the stag for the handle the maker would owe you. The
way I see it now the maker owes you $50.
If the maker would have said it's going to
cost you $500 give or take $100. You
probably would have agreed to it and this
thread wouldn't exist.

Ray Smith
 
FWIW, i think the maker should make darned sure that he has quoted a realistic price for a job, and even give himself a little wriggle room so stuff like this doesnt happen.

not necc in knives, but in other endeavors i have seen the price start at X, then to Y, and by the time we're finished, it will be Z, all because a guy was trying to undercut the competition by a buck, and get the job, by the end everybodys mad, happens in construction all the time......

i just like to quote a price (or be quoted) and stick to it, heck i dont mind a man making some $$ on a job, would rather have a good quote maybe even a little high, than a low ball one that i am gonna have to come up w/$$ to cover, hard to do sometimes, i have a budget also lol

just my .01 worth

greg
 
You don't owe this guy anything. You have a signed reciept.It is a shame that a talented maker such as this would p#ss on his reputation, and ruin your enjoyment of this knife with such shady business practice.
 
Originally posted by tom mayo
more people have gone bankrupt keeping their end of the bargain on a set price than we will ever know................


its too bad the guy doesnt have a clue! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Which one are you saying doesn have a clue? Danbo or Mr. Potier? I really dont think that Potier is going bankrupt over this deal.

I like Potiers stuff a lot but given that you have had this kind of semi-ransom situation I think I will pass on his stuff in the future. Thats downright unethical.
 
Ray Smith thinks that this deal should be kept private....
Well, I do not think so.
Because EXACTLY for such things this GBU-Forum was intended.
We Knifebuyers and Owners NEED TO KNOW about this stuff.
O.k., it's bad for the person concerned but he is willing to share his experience and to spare someone else from such hardship!
Thanks to Danbo and all the others who post their positive AND negative experiences.

Stay save (and buy good :D )
 
Can't add anything more than has been said. Put that dog on eBay and praise the hell out of it. Nobody here wants it and neither do you. The most apparent value of any custom/handmade is the integrity it represents. Let someone else enjoy this piece. You're done--so is he.

I dropped an order of a beautiful piece from a noted maker. His sluggishness and untruthfulness regarding delivery gave me ojida when I thought about how I was being taken advantage of. I got my cash back and spent my money elsewhere, where it made me happy. I hope you do the same.

Coop
 
[NOTE: 07-11-02 REVISED OPINIONS appear in blue text]

Just chiming in...

I agree with much of what has been said before. However, permit me to put my "take" on the situation.

In this situation, there are 2 separate, "parallel-universe"-type, transactions occuring between Danbo and Mr. P. The first, is the traditional what-I-call "handshake" transaction--where a man is as good as his word. The second is the legal transaction, unnecessary to even consider in most transactions between honorable people, but necessary in the litigous society we live in. (Note: I am not a lawyer, just a businessman with a degree in Politics & Economics.)

Here's the analysis in play-by-play format:

Blade Show 2001
Danbo and Mr. P agree on $500 for a knife built to Danbo's specifications with Danbo's piece of stag.

Analysis: In "handshake" terms, the deal has been made, both parties are bound by their honor and integrity to the terms. Any gentleman would consider it sufficient to form a binding contract.

Now "legally", an oral contract is just shy of having been made. Explanation: Mr. P offered for $500 to complete a knife to Danbo's specifications, and Danbo accepted the terms. However, no consideration (i.e. money or deposit) was given to Mr. P. Thus, legally no binding contract has been completed. [Note: an argument could be made that stag was a deposit, however, I believe most legal analysts would consider the stag having been consigned to Mr. P, and therefore not be construed as consideration.]

[REVISED OPINION: After further review, an oral contract per the UCC was in fact formed at Blade Show 2001. However, the oral contract just barely qualified as enforceable, as the UCC requires any/all contracts over $500.00 in value to be put in writing.

Blade Show 2002
Mr. P shows Danbo a 90%-completed knife and asks $600.00. Both parties agree on $550.00, Danbo pays the amount in cash, and a receipt is written for the transaction.

Analysis: "Legally", the deal is now a binding contract. Offer, acceptance, and consideration have fulfilled the requirements in the eyes of the law. In "handshake"-terms, Mr. P's request for more money is questionable at best.

Here and Now
Knife delivered to customer's satisfaction with an Invoice for $600.00.

Analysis: "Legally", the Blade Show 2002 contract has now been completed. No further action is required by either party. The $600.00 invoice is non-binding and irrelevant (and may be a typo or clerical error). Either way, the receipt from Blade Show 2002 is the only binding contract.

SUMMARY
Danbo is, without question, entitled to the knife in hand at the price of $550.00.

[REVISED OPINION: While the price Danbo is entitled in the "Here and Now" does not change; actually, Danbo was entitled to the knife at the price of $500.00 right up to the time he re-negotiated for $550.00 at Blade Show 2002, and formed another contract in writing for $550.00]

Mr. P is proof-positive of the fact that superb knifemaking skills does not translate into business skills.

Now, playing Devil's Advocate, Mr. P may have indeed underestimated his labors involved in the making of Danbo's knife. Theoretically, he should have explained to Danbo in exact and specific terms the costs he incurred (i.e. # of hours, materials, etc.) and shown on paper how he was making no profit (if indeed this was the case). Then, Danbo, being the gentleman that he is and understanding everyone is entitled to some profit, would probably have even volunteered to pay some additional sums to make up for the maker's original poor cost-estimation (at Blade Show 2001). Either way, it was Danbo's call, and the maker had no right to request additional funds.

Now, before we all villify Mr. P, let's not forget that we all have room for improvement in our lives. Without knowing Mr. P myself, I would reserve judgment on his overall character and only say that Mr. P exercised very poor business judgment (in this matter with Danbo)--and should hopefully learn from it.

Moral to the Story: Know the concepts of Offer, Acceptance, and Consideration! Furthermore, if a fixed-price is agreed upon, make a deposit and get a receipt to fulfill the consideration requirement of a legally-binding contract!

[REVISED OPINION: Any agreement which either party has to give up something qualifies for the 3 elements of offer, acceptance, and consideration. However, be advised that the UCC requires any contract for values over $500.00 be put in writing to be enforceable.]
 
Ray Smith wrote:
If your not willing to pay the extra $100 it's your right to back out of the deal. Since you supplied the stag for the handle the maker would owe you. The way I see it now the maker owes you $50.
Click to expand...

Putting aside the issue of breach of contract for a moment, this brings up an interesting point with regards to a customer's consignment of materials to the maker in custom-knifemaking contracts.

I mean, if this situation had turned out differently and the knife-in-question was not to the customer's liking--what to do about the stag now unfit for making of another knife? The obvious answer is: the maker owes the customer for the value of the stag. But, without more information (i.e. what were the customer's directions for the stag, was the stag fitted properly to the knife and per customer's instructions and to the customer's liking, etc.) its never really that simple is it?

My suggestion: if you find yourself consigning over materials to a maker, to protect both parties, get in writing the agreed-upon replacement value of the materials at that time! Furthermore, in the value of high-value handle materials (i.e. mastadon, etc.)--request to be able to view the knife prior to the handle/scales being affixed!
 
Ron,

I disagree with definition of "legal" (no quibble on moral). The oral contract for $500 was binding at that point. The promise to pay the $500 on delivery is enough to qualify as consideration under the law in all states I believe. If you think about it, there are many other kinds of contracts in which a promise to pay is all that is given by one party, for example for monthly deliveries of supplies, for which payment is not given up front but which is billed after delivery (even water and electricity), or a loan, in which money is given by one party for the "mere" promise by the other to repay it with interest.

The problem is proof. If Danbo tried to stick to the $500 and the maker refused, how does he prove that there was a contract? IIRC he had no receipt for the stag. At least he got a receipt to prove he paid the $550 before delivery, so now he has proof. But if he had refused, could he get the stag back or get paid for it?

My advice would be to get things in writing if possible, or pay on delivery and refuse to buy if the terms change. (The last suggestion doesn't solve the stag problem.)
 
I disagree with definition of "legal" (no quibble on moral). The oral contract for $500 was binding at that point. The promise to pay the $500 on delivery is enough to qualify as consideration under the law in all states I believe. If you think about it, there are many other kinds of contracts in which a promise to pay is all that is given by one party, for example for monthly deliveries of supplies, for which payment is not given up front but which is billed after delivery (even water and electricity), or a loan, in which money is given by one party for the "mere" promise by the other to repay it with interest.
Click to expand...

[REPLY DELETED FOR INCORRECT LEGAL INTERPRETATION]
 
Originally posted by guncollector


Odulus-

You may be correct based upon the assumption that Danbo did in fact in a separate statement "promise to pay" the $500.00. But, he probably didn't. Read on.

After re-reading Danbo's original post I do not see anywhere that he affirms or conveys to the maker in a separate statement a "promise to pay". In his post I only see that a price and delivery time had been agreed-upon (and like most people I would naturally assume this acceptance implies a promise to pay). But, agreeing upon a price does not necessarily nor automatically equate to a "promise to pay"--otherwise acceptance would be part and parcel of consideration, which of course it is not.

It may be splitting hairs (but most legal analysis is just that), but a verbal statement such as, "I promise to pay..." must be made after acceptance of the terms in order to qualify as consideration--it cannot merely be implied in the buyer's acceptance of the terms. Danbo probably didn't bother making such a statement (and generally neither would I), as we all naturally work on the assumption that acceptance of the terms (delivery time and price of the knife) equates a promise to pay.

Ask yourself, how often do you actually verbalize a separate promise to pay when verbally negotiating stuff? It is usually implied in the acceptance, but that is insufficient in a court of law. A typical deal at a show would be like this:

Buyer: "That's a nice knife. I'd like to order one. How Much?"
Maker/Seller: "$600.00" [Offer]
Buyer: "How's about $500.00" [Counter-Offer]
Maker/Seller: "That's a bit low, but business is slow. So, okay $500.00" [Offer]
Buyer: "Okay, I'll agree to that. Here's my number and address." [Acceptance]

Was there promise to pay (consideration) in this typical transaction? No. And, I'd venture to guess most often there is not, as everyone works merely on the implied promise to pay.

Anyway, thanks for bringing up a fun legal point to drivel over. Makes good food for thought at the very least.
Click to expand...


Then there is the ethical point. I find it distasteful the way that Potier handled the transaction where there was an implied promise to pay from the client. His reputation obviously has little worth to him or he was not thinking when he tried to "weasel" the extra c-note out of the customer. He has been making knives for a long time and I doubt he lost money on this deal.
 
That is jacked...sorry to hear about that Danbo. As I have just entered agreement for my first custom knife, I am very interested in this whole thread. I wonder if email would count as a binding contract? Anyway, tell this fool that the deal is done and you're docking him the extra 50 bucks for late delivery. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and have met many reputable people on the forums, but hearing about stuff like this just makes it harder and harder to trust people.
 
Zeng inquires:
I wonder if email would count as a binding contract?
Click to expand...

Yup, sure could. And be sure to save all the internet/email headers (i.e. to, subject, from, message-id, received from, return-paths, etc.) along with the message.

Heck, even verbal contracts are legally binding. But, anything contracted in writing (no matter the form--could be crayola on napkins for all it matters) is better (i.e. easier to enforce or prove in court) than a verbal contract.

Bottom line: it is legally binding as long as the 3 primary legal requirements of a contract (offer, acceptance, and consideration) are present.
 
I better make sure Rons knife is on time.....gotta go check my folder files..........................:(
 
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