Another questionable situation

too late, chuck bybee told me the price of titanium went up 800% so I am going to have to double my prices!!!!!!!!! :confused: :D :D :confused:
 
Originally posted by guncollector


Odulus-

You may be correct based upon the assumption that Danbo did in fact in a separate statement "promise to pay" the $500.00. But, he probably didn't. Read on.

After re-reading Danbo's original post I do not see anywhere that he affirms or conveys to the maker in a separate statement a "promise to pay". In his post I only see that a price and delivery time had been agreed-upon (and like most people I would naturally assume this acceptance implies a promise to pay). But, agreeing upon a price does not necessarily nor automatically equate to a "promise to pay"--otherwise acceptance would be part and parcel of consideration, which of course it is not.

It may be splitting hairs (but most legal analysis is just that), but a verbal statement such as, "I promise to pay..." must be made after acceptance of the terms in order to qualify as consideration--it cannot merely be implied in the buyer's acceptance of the terms. Danbo probably didn't bother making such a statement (and generally neither would I), as we all naturally work on the assumption that acceptance of the terms (delivery time and price of the knife) equates a promise to pay.

Ask yourself, how often do you actually verbalize a separate promise to pay when verbally negotiating stuff? It is usually implied in the acceptance, but that is insufficient in a court of law. A typical deal at a show would be like this:

Buyer: "That's a nice knife. I'd like to order one. How much and what's delivery?"
Maker/Seller: "$600.00 in 3 months" [Offer]
Buyer: "How's about $500.00" [Counter-Offer]
Maker/Seller: "That's a bit low, but business is slow. So, okay $500.00" [Offer]
Buyer: "Okay, deal. Here's my number and address." [Acceptance]

Was there promise to pay (consideration) in this typical transaction? No. And, I'd venture to guess most often there is not, as everyone works merely on the implied promise to pay.

Anyway, thanks for bringing up a fun legal point to drivel over. Makes good food for thought at the very least.
Click to expand...

Ron,

I'm not sure where you got the idea that there has to be a separate promise to pay, as explicit as "I promise . . ." Not so. The promise may be implied and is still legally binding, although it is true that lots of legal documents include the word "promise". Saying that acceptance is not "part of" consideration is mixing apples and oranges, they are completely separate things although you correctly note they are both required.

The offer itself generally contains a statement of the consideration. For example, I offer to buy your car, or house, or knife for $X, and you accept. I, the buyer, stated the consideration and an offer which you then accepted. Binding contract. No one said "I promise" to do anything. It's implied but still binding.

Or, as in your scenario, the seller can say I offer to sell you this knife, or one like it, for $Y, and the buyer accepts. Again, binding contract, although now it is the seller who has stated the consideration. Even saying "OK, deal" should be enough, again you don't have to say "I promise to pay."

As you note, people are often not precise. In your scenario, I would say that technically the result might be as follows:

Maker/Seller: "$600.00 in 3 months" [Offer]
Buyer: "How's about $500.00" [Maybe a Counter-Offer, not very clear]
Maker/Seller: "That's a bit low, but business is slow. So, okay $500.00" [Might be acceptance, I suppose one could argue this is a new offer]
Buyer: "Okay, deal. Here's my number and address." [Clearly acceptance if the prior one was not, adds information about delivery]

Now try this version:

Maker/Seller: "$600.00 in 3 months" [Offer]
Buyer: "I'll pay $500" or "I'll give you $500" or "I offer $500" [Definite counter offer, and includes the promise to pay, even without the word "promise"]
Maker/Seller: "That's a bit low, but business is slow. So, okay $500.00" [I think this now clearly qualifies as acceptance, although delivery terms not yet defined]
Buyer: "Okay, deal. Here's my number and address." [Confirmation, again adds information about delivery, but not really needed. You could say "I will pick it up at your place of business."]

You are correct that the law ofter gets "hypertechnical" and I don't think we need to worry about that. If both parties agree to a price and what is to be delivered when, preferably in writing, it is a binding contract.

All of which is a long way of saying that Danbo has a valid gripe IMHO, and absolutely should not send any more money.

Great knife, by the way, and great choice of stag.
 
What's the old axiom? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing... Anyway, I've proven that axiom by trying to pull contractual law out of my arse from classes 15 years ago...

After some more research on the Net, including reading Article 1 and Article 2 of the Uniform Commerical Code (UCC) and other info on the Common Law of Contracts, Odulus is correct with regard to a contract having been formed at Blade Show 2001.

Danbo and Mr. P did indeed form a contract per the UCC at the Blade Show 2001. The three elements of Offer, Acceptance, and Consideration were all present. But their agreement just barely qualified as an enforceable contract per the UCC, as any goods of value over $500.00 must be put in writing.

Therefore, Danbo, you were actually legally entitled to the knife at the price of $500.00--right up to the point you re-negotiated for $550.00 in writing at Blade Show 2002.

Note: To avoid giving the incorrect legal advice and avoid confusing those who read threads piecemeal, I have gone back and either added revised opinions or deleted my incorrect postings.

Hope that helps...
 
Hey guys....while you are throwing out all this legal jargon. Don't forget about the pre-existing duty rule.

In certain situations...performance of a pre-existing contractual duty is not consideration. So...if knifemaker had a pre-existing contractual duty to make the knife for $500 under a binding contract. He cannot up the price...he eats it if it costs more than he thought. Even if buyer says OK...I will pay more, knifemaker has given no new consideration. Legally buyer is not obligated and can take the knife and just give knifemaker the $500 and call it a day. This usually applies to service contracts (non UCC) and there are some defenses.

Here there also is a question as to if making a custom knife is a even under the UCC. The issue would be is buying a custom knife a contract primarily for goods (blade,handle,knife) or the service of a custom maker?

It's amazing how in this little scenario brings up so many legal issues. Just thought I would get in on the action.

JT
 
Also lets not forget "in good faith". That gives a little slack to the technical end of it by looking at the intent. Clearly this is a "good faith" deal and one where there appears to be a willing seller and a willing buyer with an agreed upon price even if technically there might be some dispute. Potier wouldnt have a chance.
 
How about forgetting all the legal speak bull$hit. It seems the maker names a price of 500 which Danbo said ok to. Whether Dan said "ok" or "I promise" or "take my first born" is not the issue. The maker is trying to pull a fast one, and if his word is not worth anything, then he needs to find something else to do.

I never try and shaft somebody and start playing the legal speak game with them. If I make a deal, I follow through even if I realize im on the losing end. Everybody on this forum that I have dealt with has also followed through. When they tell me something, I can be assured that their word is good enough.
 
"Their word should be good enough".

That, my friends is the only reason I brought all this up in the first place. My intention was never to trash the guy's name or reputation. I really only wanted some opinions as to what I should do, as I have never had this happen in my knife collecting days before. This really has not been about the guy's work; heck, the knife is flawless and is likely worth more than he is trying to hike it up to. But that is not the issue. It's the principle of the whole thing. Do you think Jerry Fisk or Roger Massey or John Fitch would quote you one price and then try to raise it two more times before the knife was delivered? I dont think so. Not on a bet. I just threw those names out as an example, but you can fill in just about any knifemaker out there if you want, because this kind of stuff should not happen. One of the reasons I am so into custom knives is the people involved. Nowhere else in the world can you find people as nice as the people involved in custom knives.
 
Yeah.., I agree Dan.., and when the dust clears from all the rhetoric...(like anyone is going to get an attorney over poor character)...., it is just a sad story really...

Half the fun of collecting is the relationships with the makers.., and a true consistency that has stood the test of time for the most part.

Of course "stuff" costs more now ~~> than it did some years ago...., and most of us have probably undersold something in our lives...(and eaten our error)..., displaying the character I find to be common in "Blade-Ville".

We've truly heard all the -WORDS- relevant to what is best described simply.

Terrible behavior..., in a time-honored tradition....

The knife is gorgeous.., and the man is talented (as mentioned by all). You certainly owe him nothing.., and in fact I think he owes you a sincere apology and $50.00.

Myself..., I would enjoy the knife.., give him the $50.00..., and BTTT this thread until I'd worn out three keyboards..., while his "Cost Accountant" weighs the monetary worth of integrity.


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
Well lets' forget all the legal BS for a moment . The man provided the stag , got a set price and delivery date . Delivery date comes and no knife finished and maker forces price increase up buyers ass . Maker finally delivers knife and sends a screw you note along with it . I would as already stated tell him thanks for the knife and wear this thread out and do another every week till he sent my extra $50.00 back and begged for mercy .

This is how I feel the man should have handled it : I had a knife ordered from one of our very busy makers on this forum . Well the delivery date came and went by 6 months . I e-mailed a nice note to find out about the knife and the reply I got floored me . The maker made a great apoligy and blamed himself for a great screw up and then went so far as to drop the price on the knife to make up for his mistake . Needless to say we are working on an even nicer blade and will continue to do business . Just my opinion but that is how you get repeat customers and make new ones . I had already bought one of the makers higher priced blades last year and wanted another , he made me one very happy camper and will get many other orders from me .I also feel I got jerked off by another maker on this forum and will never buy from him again but we settled up recently by e-mail .


I hope this made sense but if not it is typical me , misspelled words and all .

Jerry
 
Legally, you probably don't owe him the extra $$$ (I say probably because nothing is certian in the legal biz). People hate lawyers and try to avoid them. How often do I hear someone say that they never use a written contract, a handshake is all he needs. That's great when it works. It's a ****ing nightmare when it doesn't.

This guy may not be a ripoff artist. Sounds more like he's a good knifemaker, but ****** businessman. This often happens. I have seen excelent mechanics, doctors, lawyers, craftsman, et cet., who do great work, but can't seem to make a dime because they suck at the business aspect.

You sound like the kind of guy who likes to buy pretty, custom knives (and there ain't nuttin' wrong with that). Realize that you are dealing with artistic types, not bean counters. Carry your own contract when you go to shows and fill in the blanks. You should include materials and who provides them, specs for the item being made, date of completion (and that time is of the essence), final price agreed upon, that any change must be made in writing and signed by both parties, how much you will pay in advance, upon completion. Also, to protect yourself, incude a liquidated damages clause for a reasonable sum of $$$$ should the artisan not complete the project (this is not a "penalty" and never use that term, it is your damages should he fail to make your knife. Also include a clause that you reserve the right to reject any goods that don't conform to the contract and that you have the absolute right to reject goods that don't meet your satisfaction. Agree to a fair price and reasonable terms and remember that **** happens.

Good luck in the future.
 
Originally posted by JTurner
Hey guys....while you are throwing out all this legal jargon. Don't forget about the pre-existing duty rule.

In certain situations...performance of a pre-existing contractual duty is not consideration. So...if knifemaker had a pre-existing contractual duty to make the knife for $500 under a binding contract. He cannot up the price...he eats it if it costs more than he thought. Even if buyer says OK...I will pay more, knifemaker has given no new consideration. Legally buyer is not obligated and can take the knife and just give knifemaker the $500 and call it a day. This usually applies to service contracts (non UCC) and there are some defenses.

Here there also is a question as to if making a custom knife is a even under the UCC. The issue would be is buying a custom knife a contract primarily for goods (blade,handle,knife) or the service of a custom maker?

It's amazing how in this little scenario brings up so many legal issues. Just thought I would get in on the action.

JT
Click to expand...

UCC Article 2 covers this. Of couse, since it is for goods over $500, Statute of Frauds covers, but since is might be considered a specialy made item, it would bring it out of the SOF.
 
Holy crap. I never thought I'd be ressurecting a thread this old, but...

The knife in question is long gone. Actually, I sold/traded it off soon after this thread was started. Too many bad thoughts involved for me.

The only reason I bring this up again, is because I've moved on and I thought that the maker in question(Tim Potier) had, too. I mean, since this all happened 10 years ago, I've seen him at various shows across the country and we've even talked, etc...

But, this year, at Blade, I saw him standing by his table and I attempted to be friendly and tried to shake his hand. He pulled his hand back, like I was a coiled cobra and said, "NO! I'm not shaking your hand! You disrespected me. You ordered one of my knives and then you sold it." Word for word, that is exactly what he said. I'm like, WTF, over? I just walked away, shaking my head in disbelief.
 
I hate to hear about things like this. I have to say that I had a maker pull the old "price change" on me several years ago too. Only it was way worse that $50 or $100. About 6 years ago I agreed to put in an order for a knife that the maker said he would deliver at next year's blade show. We agreed on the model, finish, size etc. He quoted me a price and even put it in writing....$950. Well, the next year rolls around and I am excited to go to the show and get my long awaited knife. When I approach him; he tells me that he did not have time to finish it (says he had one he made for an active duty marine instead). I am thinking well OK, I guess he needs it quicker than me - so I am OK with it. Then this arrogant pinhead tells me oh by the way, it's going to be $1400. I tell him that was not what agreed to and how did he come up with that new number? (unfortunately, I did not think to bring the order form with the original estimate - don't think it would have made a diff to him anyway) He says that he moved his shop from SC to AL and he needs to recoup some money, etc. I tell him that does not seem to be a valid reason and certainly not one that would make a 50% increase to the price of the knife; maybe $50 or even $100 more for materials - but that was unlikely as it was nothing but stock removal and micarta. Then his wife comes along and tells him he does not have to explain anything to me. Needless to say, I told him he would not be selling a knife to me. What tool.
 
There is a Maker out there who has refused to talk to me because I sold the knife I bought from him. I paid his full asking price, there were no discounts and when I sold it, the sale price was exactly what I paid.
Some makers must feel as if they did us some sort of favor, allowing us to buy their knife and then expect we'll own it for eternity. I would think a Maker would be happy learning his knives were retaining or exceeding the sale price on the secondary market.:confused:
 
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