Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

[SadSappySucker]

I think owning autos and balisongs is a trivial thing of no consequence...would you like me to force that view on all knife owners?
Probably not.

I wasn't necessarily referring to balis or autos. I was referring to the states with laws that ban fixed blades, blades longer than 2.5", locking folders, etc. You know, laws that effect a larger percent of the knife community than things like ivory.

 

[SadSappySucker]

Let's face it, there isn't a single issue that will get unanimous support, but there are quite a few issues that I'd be willing to bet would get overwhelming support by our community. Those are the issues we need to fight.

 

[Mark Knapp]

So when I read about Ivory smuggling and catching smugglers in the USA by the US fish and wildlife.... what is that all about?
http://www.fws.gov/le/pdf/Elephant-Ivory-Investigations.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...c72086-fe42-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ion-scratchoff-usf-ws-forest-elephants-gabon/

http://www.justice.gov/enrd/6351.htm

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/texas-man-pleads-guilty-rhino-and-ivory-smuggling-conspiracy

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/w...ulprit-in-ivory-smuggling-ex-us-official.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/nyregion/04ivory.html

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/27/world/asia/priest-ivory-controversy/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/27/us-usa-newjersey-rhino-idUSKBN0E72S120140527
http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/S-F-ranks-No-2-U-S-city-for-elephant-killing-5650551.php

So it does seem smuggling elephant ivory is alive and well in the USA.... "Federal agents say they have seized 6 tons of ivory smuggled into the United States over the past 25 years. Kinzley said that is only about 10 percent of illegal ivory sales."

I am not sure who your question was directed to. There is a lot of good stuff in there. Some of them, I have read before. It will take a while to go through it all. I have glimpsed through all of them, and really started to look closely at the first two. There are some contradictions in them, half of them are covering the same cases with different facts. Some of them talk about having confiscated parts of animals that are not illegal to transport. One of them talks about smuggling rhino horns out of the US.

Again there is some real good stuff in there that I am going to look closer at it. To me, when these kinds of articles come out they strengthen my argument that our wildlife officials are doing a good job. There is one thing that seems to resonate in them and that is that they need more help at the border. If this is true then they should get it. I think that hiring more agents to watch the border would do a lot more than trying to implement these bans. Anyway I'm going to punch out for the night.

Good night every body.

 

[JParanee]

But Sadsappysucker great name

What many seem to forget is that Ivory as a knife handle material is a very old material like before the riddle of steel and knives were made of flint

It's not like Doug is just concentrating on this and only this

Btw

Do any of you know Doug that are criticizing him ?

The guy really believes in what he is doing and I commend him

Hell he gets choked up every time he speaks on knife rights .......sorry Doug

We at DISKIN USA even donated a knife to Knife Rights

So Yes Doug is for D/A Autos also

Believe me he is not neglecting any of your concerns he is just fighting for all of our concerns

If you happen not to care for Ivory handled knives I ubderstand but those that do still have rights and belong to Knife Rights so they deserve his attention

Dougs a good dude

 

[RedLynx]

I am familiar with this subject, we can talk about it if you like. What would you like to know?

Mark,

Sorry for the late reply, I was away and have just returned home.

You've probably already answered this question I have since I see there are now a few more pages to the thread but in case you haven't:

I'd personally like to be able to tell the differences in ivory types at a glance (if you as someone well-versed believes this is possible). If so, how can I learn how to do this? Thanks.

 

[RedLynx]

By the way,

Doug, if you have an opportunity to come by this thread again and read what I've posted (not that it is terribly interesting), I want to say that, whatever else might be said I think you're a great guy going a fine job with a great organization. Unlike some, I am happy to support you and Knife Rights monetarily regardless of what issue is taking your attention at any given time. I know you are giving the proper attention to all issues as need be. I trust that is true. I've never met you but I can see you have a passion for this and as an enthusiast I'm happy to have that passion on my side (and I did win a very cool custom in giveaway, so, yay).

Thanks for all that you do.

 

[longbeard]

.........

 

[RX-79G]

Can you name any tyrant who has not used that very argument for the entire smorgasbord of infamy?

"Society" is doing nothing of the sort; a small minority are imposing their will without authority on others.

So, you don't live in a democracy? Count the "votes" on this thread.

And tyrants don't make arguments. They don't have to.



People like you tend to talk about the "tyranny" of not being able to smoke in a restaurant, and don't appreciate hearing about the "tyranny" of nasty cigarette smoke in shared public places.

Sometimes (or everytime) doing the "right" thing is going to not be easy for a very vocal minority. That is honestly unfortunate. I gave the example earlier of an investor in the asbestos industry that loses his savings due to lawsuits. It isn't the investor's fault. But it wouldn't be right to keep using asbestos where it hurts people, despite the financial harm ending its common use brought to some people.



JParnee, there aren't enough elephants left to "harvest". We're talking about a five ton animal that lives for 45 years and has a two year gestation period. They aren't rabbits. Killing them to get a couple pounds of teeth is outrageous.


Peak_Oil, what are your feelings about collecting property seized during the Holocaust? Art, diamonds, shoes, hair, etc.

 

[Steven65]

JParnee, there aren't enough elephants left to "harvest". We're talking about a five ton animal that lives for 45 years and has a two year gestation period. They aren't rabbits. Killing them to get a couple pounds of teeth is outrageous..

Joe has travelled extensively in Southern Africa. He has visited the areas affected by poaching and has seen the problem with his own eyes. Have you?

You have a very strong opinion and I respect that. Unfortunately most of what you believe about Elephant conservation in wrong.

Apply for a passport, climb on a plane and come down here and see for yourself.
Then you might realise just how complex the problem of animal conservancy in Southern, Central and East Africa is.

Attempting to stop the poaching of Elephants in Southern Africa by banning all Ivory sales in the US may make you feel better, but the truth is that it is an exercise in futility and will do nothing to save the species.

 

[RX-79G]

Joe has travelled extensively in Southern Africa. He has visited the areas affected by poaching and has seen the problem with his own eyes. Have you?

You have a very strong opinion and I respect that. Unfortunately most of what you believe about Elephant conservation in wrong.

Apply for a passport, climb on a plane and come down here and see for yourself.
Then you might realise just how complex the problem of animal conservancy in Southern, Central and East Africa is.

Attempting to stop the poaching of Elephants in Southern Africa by banning all Ivory sales in the US may make you feel better, but the truth is that it is an exercise in futility and will do nothing to save the species.

What, exactly, did I say about elephant conservation that is factually incorrect?

I think calling me out this way after a whole bunch of people with no concept of what's happening in China is a little funny.

 

[Sosa]

You guys can keep your precious ivory. No one will take it away. If you treasure it so much keep it forever. Meanwhile the bark from mammoth is made into knife scales. The core is sold as elephant ivory.

 

[beaconterraone]

So, you don't live in a democracy?

No, I don't live in a democracy. If you're in America, neither do you. We have a Republic, where the rights of minorities are (at least in theory) protected from the tyranny of the majority.

Count the "votes" on this thread.

All such "votes" are irrelevant.

And tyrants don't make arguments. They don't have to.

LOL - could you please study some history, and then get back to us? Every successful tyrant is a demagogue, appealing directly to the "feelings" of the masses. Scapegoating is a primary argument (e.g., "these 'immoral' people are causing something bad; we must force them to 'do the right thing'.").

People like you tend to talk about the "tyranny" of not being able to smoke in a restaurant, and don't appreciate hearing about the "tyranny" of nasty cigarette smoke in shared public places.

Considering you don't know me, that's a huge assumption.

Peak_Oil, what are your feelings about collecting property seized during the Holocaust? Art, diamonds, shoes, hair, etc.

I think we can invoke Godwin's Law here.

 

[RX-79G]

No, I don't live in a democracy. If you're in America, neither do you. We have a Republic, where the rights of minorities are (at least in theory) protected from the tyranny of the majority.




All such "votes" are irrelevant.




LOL - could you please study some history, and then get back to us? Every successful tyrant is a demagogue, appealing directly to the "feelings" of the masses.




Considering you don't know me, that's a huge assumption.




I think we can invoke Godwin's Law here.

So, is it a Republic representative government, or a tyranny of the "minority imposing their wills"? According to you, there is no society that makes decisions for itself.

Therefore, there is nothing more to discuss. Neither my opinion nor yours will change what our masters do, so there is nothing to support or oppose.

Glad we could work that out.

 

[leghog]

The same type of individuals leading this tyrannical movement is the same as that which oppose the right to keep & bear blades & firearms. "If even one child could be saved..." "If even one elephant can be saved..."

Not so. Your labels are not quite so easily distributed and transferred.

I have no problem whatsoever on an import ban and/or a massive tariff causing an effective import ban. That is completely constitutional, as a delegated power to the Congress. Enforce it!

I have a huge problem with the denial of the right to already-owned private property without just cause or compensation, the ownership (and right to trade) which are secured by the Ninth Amendment

Ownership and the right to deal/trade are two separate issues.

There is a large amount of privately-owned ivory-adorned jewelry owned by Americans, and a lesser but still notable amount of ivory-adorned heirloom knives. As such due to the latter, this is a knife rights issue.

These bans on the private, internal sale of animal products within the United States do absolutely nothing to save elephants. Nothing. They are self-righteous feel-good measures intended to make promoters & supporters "feel good" about themselves, and nothing more. Far from being "noble," such self-serving efforts are pathetic.

No, the efforts to legislate are not being made so those proposing legislation can feel good about themselves. The proposals are made to save the elephant from extinction. You may believe that legislation can't do that, but then that's the argument you should make.

If you support a ban on ivory already owned by Americans, then you support tyranny. It's as simple as that. And understand measures like these are a double-edged sword that come back at your own neck eventually.

Where has anyone supported a ban on ownership?. Even the proposed legislation doesn't suggest that.

 

[leghog]

This type of attitude brings to mind a famous poem.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Oh, I am very aware of that "poem". But in my opinion it has little bearing here. If anything, it reinforces the need for Knife Rights to fight for the more important part of the blade! Without the edged part of your tool, you just have the handle!

Exactly.

Is the "me" in the last line an elephant, or an ivory investor?

yup.

 

[leghog]

Can you name any tyrant who has not used that very argument for the entire smorgasbord of infamy?

"Society" is doing nothing of the sort; a small minority are imposing their will without authority on others.

The USA is a representational democracy, a republic. Write your representatives if you don't like the legislation then credit them or hold them accountable for their action on it.

 

[leghog]

This discussion spurred some thought for me. At first I had a knee-jerk reaction that of course ivory is awful, poaching is terrible. That reminded me of the slaughter of the bison early in the history of the United States. From there I wondered whether anyone collects the knives used in Aztec human sacrifices, or whether anyone collects American hand tools used by slaves.

Those analogies fail. Are human sacrifices or American slavery still occurring? Elephant poaching for ivory is.

Some of our food animals in high-density production areas are treated pretty badly, and I would prefer to avoid buying those products.

A better analogy. Would you support or oppose legislation to change that? Did you support or opposed legislation that has brought about improvements?

Would anyone object to my ownership of a Garand or a Mosin-Nagant that saw use in battle? I don't know whether mine ever were, but I suppose they could have been. One day years from now, will my guns be burned by future generations as relics of mass murder? There are things that were part of my childhood that would absolutely be unacceptable conduct today. There are things we do today that would have been considered weak and silly. Bill Burr has a couple of jokes about how things change and the perfectly normal becomes the lunatic fringe.

Another terrible analogy.

Bottom line is I don't think any of these things should be banned, and I wish they weren't used as a way to shun people who are curious about relics.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

Wow, I've gotta say, there's a lot of just general political bs flying around here that has nothing to do with mammoth ivory. If you are quoting religious books or cursing entire liberal/conservative perspectives you may not have the maturity to partake in this discussion. If you can't refrain from such things, kindly leave this thread to the adults. If you did so in a moment of passion, let's please try to up our level of discussion.

 

[Buffalohump]

I honestly dont think the USA is the problem, I could be wrong but something tells me the vast majority of poached ivory is going to China. So really, whether it gets banned in the USA will probably not have much of an effect on the slaughter of elephants that is currently being perpetrated. There are warehouses full of ivory in China, entire marketplaces full of ivory trinkets in the mid-East. The problem is such that elephants will likely cease to exist in the wild in years to come. The same with rhino.

The bottom line is man is a rapacious destroyer and most are without conscience. He will plunder this earth until there is nothing left to profit from. The real problem is that all this wonderful wildlife is found on a continent that is poor as dirt, wracked with corruption and beset with never-ending conflict. That just makes it so much easier for the scum who trade in wildlife and their by-products to operate without fear. Despite this grim scenario it heartens me that so many people here are 'for' the elephants and wild things in general. Only when people realise that all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing will we have a hope of preserving at least a small amount of the wildlife that is left on this planet.

The bottom line is your choice can make a difference, no matter how small. Enough people get together to say NO to wildlife by-products and we can change what seems inevitable. Its not just ivory, I see elephant hide knife pouches and wallets being sold all the time on forums and ebay. Whether it be shark fins, rhino horn, ivory, turtle shell, lion whiskers and claws, tiger hides, whiskers and claws, bear bile, hide and claws, the wild pet trade... the reality is that humans profit from animals and 99% of the time it means that that animal had to die, or be separated from its family, just so some scumbag could make money. Its sickening. And just for the record, I am not anti-hunting - I am anti-poaching. There is a vast difference!

 

[Morrow]

@ beaconterraone, RX-79G and leghog (and anyone else I missed).

You are dragging this thread off-topic. Keep your posts on-topic going forward.

Thanks

Jason