Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

[craytab]

Anyway. Nothing more for me to be gained from what has been turned into a political, emotional, constitutional and non-discursive argument. Have at it guys.

 

[AVigil]

So when I read about Ivory smuggling and catching smugglers in the USA by the US fish and wildlife.... what is that all about?
http://www.fws.gov/le/pdf/Elephant-Ivory-Investigations.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...c72086-fe42-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ion-scratchoff-usf-ws-forest-elephants-gabon/

http://www.justice.gov/enrd/6351.htm

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/texas-man-pleads-guilty-rhino-and-ivory-smuggling-conspiracy

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/w...ulprit-in-ivory-smuggling-ex-us-official.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/nyregion/04ivory.html

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/27/world/asia/priest-ivory-controversy/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/27/us-usa-newjersey-rhino-idUSKBN0E72S120140527
http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/S-F-ranks-No-2-U-S-city-for-elephant-killing-5650551.php

So it does seem smuggling elephant ivory is alive and well in the USA.... "Federal agents say they have seized 6 tons of ivory smuggled into the United States over the past 25 years. Kinzley said that is only about 10 percent of illegal ivory sales."

 

[Mark Knapp]

Having supported KR in the past, and now regretting it seeing their stance, that mistake won't be happening again...



Yes, the US is not the only market (but if you really think the trade here has been stemmed at all, you are foolish; as so many noted.. since you can't prove its "pre-ban" ivory, there is nothing to stop trade once its here), but you have to start somewhere. Of course the other markets aren't us. And maybe, just maybe, if we stand up for the right thing, and are willing to take the first step, others will follow.

All you have to do is keep it from coming into the country, as the studies I sited show we are doing a pretty good job of. But then again why would I bother talking to a guy that said "Doug Ritter is defending poachers" Wow

 

[beaconterraone]

It isn't tyranny when a society decides to put an end to a destructive practice.

Can you name any tyrant who has not used that very argument for the entire smorgasbord of infamy?

"Society" is doing nothing of the sort; a small minority are imposing their will without authority on others.

 

[Peak_Oil]

This discussion spurred some thought for me. At first I had a knee-jerk reaction that of course ivory is awful, poaching is terrible. That reminded me of the slaughter of the bison early in the history of the United States. From there I wondered whether anyone collects the knives used in Aztec human sacrifices, or whether anyone collects American hand tools used by slaves. Should any of this be illegal? There was a time when the hammer and sickle was our friend, then our foe, and then our friend again, and I don't really know what to call our relationship today. There are depictions of the war-mongering United States on display in the Middle East.

Some of our food animals in high-density production areas are treated pretty badly, and I would prefer to avoid buying those products. Would anyone object to my ownership of a Garand or a Mosin-Nagant that saw use in battle? I don't know whether mine ever were, but I suppose they could have been. One day years from now, will my guns be burned by future generations as relics of mass murder? There are things that were part of my childhood that would absolutely be unacceptable conduct today. There are things we do today that would have been considered weak and silly. Bill Burr has a couple of jokes about how things change and the perfectly normal becomes the lunatic fringe.

Bottom line is I don't think any of these things should be banned, and I wish they weren't used as a way to shun people who are curious about relics.

 

[JParanee]

I do not collect Ivory

I have a small piece of Ancient Walrus in a knife handle made by a friend

I am a hunter but I have no desire to ever hunt an elephant and would not do so for any reason

I have seen them shot and it bothered me very much

With that said

I do not believe that any ban will stop the slaughter committed by poaching

The same as banning heroin will not stop the heroin from being trafficked

The only way to save the elephant is by putting people on the ground where the elephants live and some on here are not going to like what comes next

The best way to stop poaching and the utter destruction of the elephant is thru legal harvest of elephants

You see in the wonderful world that we live in if the animals can not carry themselves meaning have some type of value they will not survive

Here is a little story

In Kenya when they banned elephant hunting a problem arose

It seems when a hunter would travel to Africa to legally harvest an animal he would pay a large amount of money

Part of this money would go to the game department

This money is what paid for the jeeps and helicopters and men on the ground that were in fact protecting the elephants

Some of the funds would go to the locals to staff and maintain the camps

These same people with out the work would be the poachers

You see when a legal elephant hunt is conducted they go off of a harvest quota that is set by the game department thru it's biologist

The operatorr that is licensed in that comcession is very vested in his hunting area and should be

If he does not manage his area and protect his elephants he has no future

He also in a lot of cases and by law has to transport a game scout with him to observe and yes it's free transport for a game scout to patrol

He will take his client and harvest a mature animal.

the skin and tusks will be utilized and the meat utilized by the indigenous people in the area

So in Kenya when they stopped the legal,harvest and the funds that were raised tby sport hunting the game department fell into financial whoas and their equipment and man power was decreased

The poachers moved in and the slaughter commenced

Unlike the sport Hunter that is obligated to follow the rules and and only harvest what the quota dictates the poacher shoots all Ivory carrying elephants , young and old

They chainsaw out the leather and leave the meat rotting in the sun

It seems that the funds raised by legally harvested animals was a lot more than the funds raised by animal activist

Ask any knowledgeable outdoorsman and they will tell you it's groups like the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation etc in this country that are putting animals back in the field and putting big funds into animal conservation not pita members

Africa is a very corrupt place and the only thing that will save the Elephant is putting a value on the elephant.

This is sad but it's the truth

Passing silly bans that some guy in Africa with a machine gun and hungry kids could care less about is well .........silly

Weather he gets 10 dollars a pound or one, it is a dollar more than he had and he does not care about the fate of the elephant or some silly ban

Stopping the legal,harvest of elephants and than the import of the Ivory stops a very large part of the funding machine that saves the elephants

Btw all legally harvested Ivory is accompanied by a cities permit hence making it clearly legal and it's source verifiable

So the real irony here is that people that have paid to legally harvest Ivory (kill an elephant) have done more than everyone on here to save the African Elephant

Crazy tragic world

But alas a ban on ancient and legally harvested Ivory in the US will not save one elephant

If you think it will you are wrong

 

[JParanee]

Btw

Don't be to hard on Doug he is a good guy and tries and cares very much

Ivory has been used on knife handles since the dawn of time

So it is relevent to knife owners

Just because I do not collect Ivory handled knives it does not mean I think it should be wrong to do so

 

[22-rimfire]

Society" is doing nothing of the sort; a small minority are imposing their will without authority on others.

A small vocal minority like the vocal minority for the Keystone Pipleline project.

Sport hunting and riguorous enforcement in the respective African countries are all you can really do to save the African Elephant from extinction. The poachers even hit the preserves and parks.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

...

So it is relevent to knife owners

Pray tell - how will supporting jewelery fix archaic laws that ban autos and bali's, or make NY not so stupid, or fix where they can be carried? For all the horrible laws we have to fight, they choose to advertise the fight over ivory, something which at best is a decoration used in art knives (made from limited resources, that are very tough to tell from the illegal material), and at worst, a product of an illegal and horrific slaughter of animals to the point of extinction.

 

[stabman]

I do not collect Ivory

I have a small piece of Ancient Walrus in a knife handle made by a friend

I am a hunter but I have no desire to ever hunt an elephant and would not do so for any reason

I have seen them shot and it bothered me very much

With that said

I do not believe that any ban will stop the slaughter committed by poaching

The same as banning heroin will not stop the heroin from being trafficked

The only way to save the elephant is by putting people on the ground where the elephants live and some on here are not going to like what comes next

The best way to stop poaching and the utter destruction of the elephant is thru legal harvest of elephants

You see in the wonderful world that we live in if the animals can not carry themselves meaning have some type of value they will not survive

Here is a little story

In Kenya when they banned elephant hunting a problem arose

It seems when a hunter would travel to Africa to legally harvest an animal he would pay a large amount of money

Part of this money would go to the game department

This money is what paid for the jeeps and helicopters and men on the ground that were in fact protecting the elephants

Some of the funds would go to the locals to staff and maintain the camps

These same people with out the work would be the poachers

You see when a legal elephant hunt is conducted they go off of a harvest quota that is set by the game department thru it's biologist

The operatorr that is licensed in that comcession is very vested in his hunting area and should be

If he does not manage his area and protect his elephants he has no future

He also in a lot of cases and by law has to transport a game scout with him to observe and yes it's free transport for a game scout to patrol

He will take his client and harvest a mature animal.

the skin and tusks will be utilized and the meat utilized by the indigenous people in the area

So in Kenya when they stopped the legal,harvest and the funds that were raised tby sport hunting the game department fell into financial whoas and their equipment and man power was decreased

The poachers moved in and the slaughter commenced

Unlike the sport Hunter that is obligated to follow the rules and and only harvest what the quota dictates the poacher shoots all Ivory carrying elephants , young and old

They chainsaw out the leather and leave the meat rotting in the sun

It seems that the funds raised by legally harvested animals was a lot more than the funds raised by animal activist

Ask any knowledgeable outdoorsman and they will tell you it's groups like the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation etc in this country that are putting animals back in the field and putting big funds into animal conservation not pita members

Africa is a very corrupt place and the only thing that will save the Elephant is putting a value on the elephant.

This is sad but it's the truth

Passing silly bans that some guy in Africa with a machine gun and hungry kids could care less about is well .........silly

Weather he gets 10 dollars a pound or one, it is a dollar more than he had and he does not care about the fate of the elephant or some silly ban

Stopping the legal,harvest of elephants and than the import of the Ivory stops a very large part of the funding machine that saves the elephants

Btw all legally harvested Ivory is accompanied by a cities permit hence making it clearly legal and it's source verifiable

So the real irony here is that people that have paid to legally harvest Ivory (kill an elephant) have done more than everyone on here to save the African Elephant

Crazy tragic world

But alas a ban on ancient and legally harvested Ivory in the US will not save one elephant

If you think it will you are wrong

Good post.

Reminds of a thing I watched on lions.
Seems the locals had been been quite annoyed by the lions eating their cattle, so naturally, they shot the lions.

Once licensed, guided hunts came into effect, a funny thing happened...now the people said "Those are our lions!"
Because they had value, they began to protect the lions; they now have armed patrols to keep poachers away.
They also only allow the mature, non-breeding lions to be shot, so lion numbers are going up.

They don't really get too mad if a cow or two gets eaten by a lion now either, because they are living far better than before.

 

[longbeard]

.....

 

[stabman]

There is only one place for Ivory and thats on the beast that grew it. I wholeheartedly support the total ban on all sale & trade of Ivory.

This sounds like a very emotional response.

In fact, almost all the "Ban it!" responses have been based primarily on emotion.

I don't like laws to be based on emotion.

 

[JParanee]

Pray tell - how will supporting jewelery fix archaic laws that ban autos and bali's, or make NY not so stupid, or fix where they can be carried? For all the horrible laws we have to fight, they choose to advertise the fight over ivory, something which at best is a decoration used in art knives (made from limited resources, that are very tough to tell from the illegal material), and at worst, a product of an illegal and horrific slaughter of animals to the point of extinction.

Doug is not ignoring any aspect of knife rights and therefore needs to support all parts of the knife world

I see your point but I hope you can see Dougs

 

[JParanee]

Good post.

Reminds of a thing I watched on lions.
Seems the locals had been been quite annoyed by the lions eating their cattle, so naturally, they shot the lions.

Once licensed, guided hunts came into effect, a funny thing happened...now the people said "Those are our lions!"
Because they had value, they began to protect the lions; they now have armed patrols to keep poachers away.
They also only allow the mature, non-breeding lions to be shot, so lion numbers are going up.

They don't really get too mad if a cow or two gets eaten by a lion now either, because they are living far better than before.

I have spent time there and believe me what you are quoting is very true

In an area that Cheetah were getting into livestock they would kill them and throw them down a hole

As soon as they made it legal to export to some countries with a cities permit the land owners would throw them another calf to keep them around

Same with elephants

When they are crop raiding the people that are loosing crops could care less about the elephant when their village is going to go hungry

Make the elephants worth something and they don't mind loosing some crops and gaining work in the hunting camps

If I were not exposed to proper game management and many different places I could not possible be able to form an opinion so I do understand well meaning enthusiasm and yes the simple answer would seem to be a total ban but Africa is simply not a simple place

The indigenous people that are poaching do not care what we ban just like the drug cartels do not care what we make illegal

 

[AVigil]

According to the Dept of Justice and Fish and Game the smuggling of poached African Ivory into the USA is alive and well.

New York is the #1 city and San Francisco is #2 in poached elephant ivory. The market here in the USA for poached African ivory is real.

They are catching smugglers and their poached ivory from Africa.

The life an an elephant is worth more then a knife handle and other trinkets that they are killed for.

Yes African elephants are killed to supply the demands for ivory in the the USA currently. The DOJ and Fish and Game catch and prosecute people smuggling in tons of ivory over the years.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

Doug is not ignoring any aspect of knife rights and therefore needs to support all parts of the knife world

I see your point but I hope you can see Dougs

No, not really.

When i am working my job, if i divert my attention and resources from task A, to task B, then the result is that task A either slows or stops; For all the time and money spent on the fight for ivory (which feels ridiculous anyway), that is time and money that could actually be fighting for REAL rights. What good is owning ivory if we don't have any blades to put it on?

Beyond that, i do have issue at heart with even fighting an ivory ban. Flat out, poaching is going on because of demand; as much as others here keep trying to trumpet saying we aren't a problem... we are still a problem. You cant tell a difference in post ban and pre ban. We still move ivory, and we still make demand. And sadly, people buy things that they are told is old, when its not, and the problem continues. I don't care about mammoth ivory (though, i frankly done care for it, i don't have a problem with its use), but it is small fries compared to the illegal trade. As it is, if it means helping to save the species, then by all means, ban it. Frankly, its about time mankind took one for the team (so to speak... referring to the few people who might somehow face hardship from it). And maybe, just maybe if we get our crap together as a nation and species, we can come back to dealing with trivial things, like selling ancient ivory again..

 

[JParanee]

No, not really.

When i am working my job, if i divert my attention and resources from task A, to task B, then the result is that task A either slows or stops; For all the time and money spent on the fight for ivory (which feels ridiculous anyway), that is time and money that could actually be fighting for REAL rights. What good is owning ivory if we don't have any blades to put it on?

Beyond that, i do have issue at heart with even fighting an ivory ban. Flat out, poaching is going on because of demand; as much as others here keep trying to trumpet saying we aren't a problem... we are still a problem. You cant tell a difference in post ban and pre ban. We still move ivory, and we still make demand. And sadly, people buy things that they are told is old, when its not, and the problem continues. I don't care about mammoth ivory (though, i frankly done care for it, i don't have a problem with its use), but it is small fries compared to the illegal trade. As it is, if it means helping to save the species, then by all means, ban it. Frankly, its about time mankind took one for the team (so to speak... referring to the few people who might somehow face hardship from it). And maybe, just maybe if we get our crap together as a nation and species, we can come back to dealing with trivial things, like selling ancient ivory again..

All valid points

But the word ban is very dangerous

If the people that collect Ivory handled knives and believe me there are many ask Doug for help and he says no than how can he help the assisted opening knife people or the double edged knife people

You see this silly community has many different people with many different tastes so when a guy is approached that runs a kinfe right organization and offered funding to help part of the knife buying collectors fight the right to preserve their right to own Ivory handled knives he really has no choice

Some want him to fight for autos

Some for Butterflys

I might think no one needs a butterfly knife but if they loose their rights eventually I could loose mine

It's a slippery slope and Doug is trying to do good

Let's face it Ivory handled knives have been around a lot longer than assisted opening folders

Again I am not a fan of Ivory knives

I am also not a fan of elephant hunting but as a hunter I will defend anyone's right to hunt what ever is a legal animal to hunt

Just because you and I have no use for Ivory handled knives does not make those that due less part of the knife community so therefore Doug is doing his job

In a way I agree there are better fights for knife rights maybe for you and I but in reality it really is not just about you and I

 

[Esav Benyamin]

What hurts someone else is trivial.
What hurts you is tragic.

Mel Brooks made a joke about that. Toss in a banana peel and people get the point. We can work together to solve problems, or we can moralize and squabble. Civilization is supposed to be a cooperative enterprise.

 

[SadSappySucker]

My grief isn't that he's fighting for a handle material, but the fact that the material being fought over is a luxury item that only a small percent of knife users can afford. That would be like the NRA using their funds to fight for the legalization of gold plated guns. If you want to fight this fight then so be it, I'm not going to tell you what to spend YOUR money on. I just don't think it's right to use the money from donors in which the large percent will never be able to afford $500+ ivory knives. Let's work on getting the real blade restrictions lifted and then we can start dealing with all these "cosmetic" battles.

 

[stabman]

Let's work on getting the real blade restrictions lifted and then we can start dealing with all these "cosmetic" battles.

I think owning autos and balisongs is a trivial thing of no consequence...would you like me to force that view on all knife owners?
Probably not.