Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

[Mark Knapp]

Wow.. Seeing all this makes me really sad at my contribution to Knife Rights (and considering a DR Grip) . .. Rather than actually working for.. You know... *knife rights*, they waste time and money on ivory (the trade of which, "legal" or not has always been sickening) . It is sad to see effort expended on this crap, when the right to own certain blades of any type is in jeopardy.

Hopefully another group will come along and worry less about decoration, and focus on being able to own them at all...

Don't beat up on old Doug too much for spending your money on the ivory battle, along with the money we raised to stop poachers we also raised of $13,000.00 to donate to Doug to help us out with the ivory thing.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

Don't beat up on old Doug too much for spending your money on the ivory battle, along with the money we raised to stop poachers we also raised of $13,000.00 to donate to Doug to help us out with the ivory thing.

When so much money is wasted on crap like this, instead of actually repealing bans and fighting creeping legislation (the kinds that will remove any knives worth putting this crap on), you fight for jewelery..
Frankly, had i known, i would have never wasted my money. I believed that the group stood to protect knives, not poachers and archeologists...

 

[RX-79G]

What kind of ivory is this, and how can you tell?

My comments about my Chinese neighbors weren't clear. These were middle class Chinese citizens who earned enough in their Chinese tech jobs to come to the US and work. Some of them chose to return home to continue their careers in China. Not rich people or immigrants, just actual Chinese Middle Class and modern skilled workers. They were middle class before they left, they'll be middle class when they return. Great English, marketable skills, hard to spot as foreigners. And they got that way before they moved here.


Mark, you make some beautiful and innovative knives. You also use mammoth ivory in such a way to showcase it as a separate material. The problem isn't what you're doing, it's those mammoth brooches I posted above. They duplicate the look and allure of ivory, competing with it and causing demand.


And all this isn't a US thing. The US may be the first country to ban trade, but it won't be the last. Just like England was the first in a long line of countries to ban slavery, or the League of Nations started the ban on whaling. Europe will follow.

 

[beaconterraone]

This is a test to see whether we have the courage and integrity to stand up to people like Doug Ritter and to stop the eradication of elephants.

Why would I want to "stand up" to someone like Doug Ritter who "has my back" as a fellow blade owner defending me against control-freaks?

So many of us are utterly sick of "environmentalists," who almost invariably turn out to be control freaks working solely for control's sake. Currently, a local "environmentalist" group is trying to block an air ambulance service from using an already existing airport! I can call that nothing but evil. Too many of the PETAphile types "need" a "cause" to fill a void within themselves., and don't want us merely to listen, but mandatorily participate in their "visions."

Who here wants to see elephants wantonly slaughtered so someone can have a new trophy piece? Few or none. Definitely not me. But if you want to stop that slaughter, you better look to Asia, not America, for the demand driver. Alas, you'll get laughter from the nexuses of demand for ivory outside of Western countries.

 

[craytab]

The same type of individuals leading this tyrannical movement is the same as that which oppose the right to keep & bear blades & firearms.

So let us fight for those things! The 2nd amendment is very important. So is the right to carry a tool like a knife! Let us focus more on the blade than the handle.

I have a huge problem with the denial of the right to already-owned private property without just cause or compensation, the ownership (and right to trade) which are secured by the Ninth Amendment.

Times change. Certain things are outlawed. Use your best guess for what things I am alluding too. They are not relevant here, and nor is constitutional law.

There is a large amount of privately-owned ivory-adorned jewelry owned by Americans, and a lesser but still notable amount of ivory-adorned heirloom knives. As such due to the latter, this a knife rights issue.

Wait, why as a knife rights Supporter do I care about Jewelry? I mean, it has been charge that some knives are pocket Jewelry but what one does with a knife is little of my concern. Why do we want to put our efforts on the handle material, or the piano, or the whozit, or the trinket. Why can't Knife rights focus on the real issue, which is the blade and how it deploys? The Majority of Knife rights stuff is related to stuff that impacts carrying and using a knife. This does not.

pathetic.

Insults help no one in a productive discourse.

If you support a ban on ivory already owned by Americans, then you support tyranny. It's as simple as that

Again, why do we have to say stuff like this. I get it. I agree to a certain extent but why the polarizing tyranny stuff.

Everyone here agrees on the basic principle. It is how to go about it that gets complicated.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Your neighbors in Seattle are not Chinese middle class. They would need to live and work in China for that. I agree that the definition of what China is can be complicated, but Geo Political Economics is not something that we are going to solve here.




There are a lot of ifs in this statement. I do agree to some extent but to project ideological cultural change of 1.5 billion people is a far stretch. What if it does the opposite? Makes it more desired. "Those westerners can't get this but we can!". Like I said, a lot of ifs.




Stupidity should be left out of this conversation if it is to be productive.



I see your point. I can't tell the difference. This is a real problem with this issue.



Again, scripture should be taken out of this. If it is brought up only respond in that it is inappropriate to this conversation.



I do not. Please respect this part of the problem. It is I think a real issue in this discussion unlike any political, economic, or religious issues which we will never agree on.



I think we all agree that we don't want any animals to become extinct for a knife handle. This is a good place to start. Like I said, I have no stake in this other than wanting Elephants to live and people to continue their hobby or business in a sustainable way. From what it sounds like, these laws won't really change the animals getting hurt part but humans will be impacted, yet there is still a chance of raw Ivory coming in to this country. So basically what I want is not possible, given current circumstances. I know you said poachers would have to be foolish to import raw Ivory from Africa but I think we would be naive to think it does not happen. Even if it does happen, it seems not to be the real problem. The source is the problem. I have little hope to change the laws in Africa. So what am I to do? I don't even like Ivory on knives. I don't like wood, whale, kangaroo, Elephant or Mammoth! So what am I to do!

Clearly this whole Ivory ban thing is a much bigger issue than knives. It doesn't really have anything to do with why I carry and use a knife every day. When I gave my daughter her first knife, I never considered warning her about the danger of Ivory handled knives or that they might be illegal one day or that they might have contributed to the extinction of Elephants in Africa. I don't consider Ivory a viable option for a handle! To each their own. What I do care about is being able to carry and use a knife. Seems to me the handle material is of little consequence in the right to carry a knife. The business end is what is being legislated against for most knives. Ivory is much bigger than just knives. I would like my knife rights organization to fight for my right to carry an edged tool. I don't cut things with Piano keys, other musical interments, gun grips, or random trinkets.



While I agree that this issue, to me, should not be tackled by knife rights, I am still going to support the organization. I don't agree with this aspect of what Doug is doing but overall the good is far out weighed by the bad.

I can teach you in five minutes how to tell the difference between mammoth ivory and elephant ivory, but really, 99% of the mammoth ivory you will see is very easy to tell. Just Google mammoth ivory scales. Then Google elephant ivory scales. The difference is obvious to the average guy immediately. Where the problem arises is when we are talking about white, interior mammoth ivory. Some interior mammoth ivory is as white as elephant ivory but most is not. Now Google Schreger lines, I put a link to it in an earlier post in this thread. In most cases you can see the Schreger lines in the end grain of both elephant ivory and mammoth ivory. If they are not obvious you just need to stain it, almost any stain will work, like wood stain. Now measure the angles of the Schreger lines. All the elephant samples will have angles above 100 degrees, and all the extinct species have angles below 100 degrees. It is really not hard, and it is non-invasive on most knives. Most of the knives I have seen with ivory on them have exposed end grain. For some you might have to remove a scale or an end cap. The stain can be buffed off pretty easily.

Here's the link to the USF&W page where identification of most kinds of ivory is explained, it seems pretty straight forward to me. http://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php#elephant

 

[craytab]

So many of us are utterly sick of "environmentalists," who almost invariably turn out to be control freaks working solely for control's sake. Currently, a local "environmentalist" group is trying to block an air ambulance service from using an already existing airport! I can call that nothing but evil. Too many of the PETAphile types "need" a "cause" to fill a void within themselves., and don't want us merely to listen, but mandatorily participate in their "visions."

Who here wants to see elephants wantonly slaughtered so someone can have a new trophy piece? Few or none. Definitely not me. But if you want to stop that slaughter, you better look to Asia, not America, for the demand driver. Alas, you'll get laughter from the nexuses of demand for ivory outside of Western countries.

Well this just isn't going well. I don't know what else can be said here.

 

[MTURBO]

Wait, why as a knife rights Supporter do I care about Jewelry? I mean, it has been charge that some knives are pocket Jewelry but what one does with a knife is little of my concern. Why do we want to put our efforts on the handle material, or the piano, or the whozit, or the trinket. Why can't Knife rights focus on the real issue, which is the blade and how it deploys? The Majority of Knife rights stuff is related to stuff that impacts carrying and using a knife. This does not.

This type of attitude brings to mind a famous poem.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[craytab]

This type of attitude brings to mind a famous poem.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Oh, I am very aware of that "poem". But in my opinion it has little bearing here. If anything, it reinforces the need for Knife Rights to fight for the more important part of the blade! Without the edged part of your tool, you just have the handle!

 

[Mark Knapp]

What kind of ivory is this, and how can you tell?

My comments about my Chinese neighbors weren't clear. These were middle class Chinese citizens who earned enough in their Chinese tech jobs to come to the US and work. Some of them chose to return home to continue their careers in China. Not rich people or immigrants, just actual Chinese Middle Class and modern skilled workers. They were middle class before they left, they'll be middle class when they return. Great English, marketable skills, hard to spot as foreigners. And they got that way before they moved here.


Mark, you make some beautiful and innovative knives. You also use mammoth ivory in such a way to showcase it as a separate material. The problem isn't what you're doing, it's those mammoth brooches I posted above. They duplicate the look and allure of ivory, competing with it and causing demand.


And all this isn't a US thing. The US may be the first country to ban trade, but it won't be the last. Just like England was the first in a long line of countries to ban slavery, or the League of Nations started the ban on whaling. Europe will follow.

I could tell you what kind of ivory those were if I had them in my hand, it's easy enough.

Thank you for the comment on my knives but what I was hoping you would see is how different the mammoth ivory scales look from elephant. 99% of the mammoth ivory scales being sold today do not look at all like elephant, for the rest, do the test. So if I am a good guy, I think you kind of said that, why should I, and millions of other people be punished (or penalized) for the actions of a few? I would argue that because we have alternative sources for ivory like the ones I use, and the examples used in your post, it helps reduce the demand on modern elephant ivory, it does not increase that demand.

 

[beaconterraone]

So let us fight for those things! The 2nd amendment is very important. So is the right to carry a tool like a knife! Let us focus more on the blade than the handle.

The so-called "activism" behind gun control, knife control, and ivory control is all fundamentally the same ideology.

Times change. Certain things are outlawed. Use your best guess for what things I am alluding too. They are not relevant here, and nor is constitutional law.

Yes, I understand, you don't believe in freedom. Arbitrary bans on private property are part of that "living constitution." :barf:

Wait, why as a knife rights Supporter do I care about Jewelry? I mean, it has been charge that some knives are pocket Jewelry but what one does with a knife is little of my concern. Why do we want to put our efforts on the handle material, or the piano, or the whozit, or the trinket. Why can't Knife rights focus on the real issue, which is the blade and how it deploys? The Majority of Knife rights stuff is related to stuff that impacts carrying and using a knife. This does not.

I did not say jewelry is the reason it's a knife rights issue. Please re-read what I wrote.

Insults help no one in a productive discourse.

Insult? I intended no insult. It was an observation. I'm sorry you took it personally for some reason.

Again, why do we have to say stuff like this. I get it. I agree to a certain extent but why the polarizing tyranny stuff.

Why shouldn't I say it? It's true! Those who support a ban on already-owned property are trying to control other people, people who have inalienable rights.

Everyone here agrees on the basic principle. It is how to go about it that gets complicated.

Why the effort to impose one's will on those who have done nothing wrong? Several have made clear in this threat that they believe even owning ivory, of whatever age or origin, is "immoral." That's a personal belief; a contrary believe is no less valid.

 

[Mark Knapp]

When so much money is wasted on crap like this, instead of actually repealing bans and fighting creeping legislation (the kinds that will remove any knives worth putting this crap on), you fight for jewelery..
Frankly, had i known, i would have never wasted my money. I believed that the group stood to protect knives, not poachers and archeologists...

Doug Ritter is not defending poachers, he is defending millions of honest Americans like me. I am sorry but I think it's ridiculous that you would say that.

 

[beaconterraone]

Well this just isn't going well. I don't know what else can be said here.

If I am in error, please say so, and detail how so.

How you would you feel about a mandatory ivory ownership statute? Would you like it? Would that be just? Now just reverse the situation, and you understand how ivory owners, who have done nothing wrong (apart from the fanatics who claim ivory ownership is inherently "immoral"), feel about a ban on sale/trade of their private property.

 

[beaconterraone]

Oh, I am very aware of that "poem". But in my opinion it has little bearing here. If anything, it reinforces the need for Knife Rights to fight for the more important part of the blade! Without the edged part of your tool, you just have the handle!

MTURBO is absolutely right on with that quote from Niemöller.

Personal freedom is under constant assault in America today; guns, knives, ivory, plants, Coca Cola, plastic grocery bags - it goes on and on and on. My thesis is that these are all tied together under an umbrella ideology, a malevolent ideology (though those participating are not necessarily with evil intent, just naivete).

I oppose all such "movements" to restrict personal freedom. I do not own ivory of any sort or age, and don't believe I ever have. I do know someone who does own ivory, inherited from her grandmother. No one, including the government, has any right, regardless of what some lawyers claim to the contrary, to prohibit her from transferring that piece to anyone she so chooses. Should she so choose one day, I shall have no moral issue with assisting her in doing so, regardless of what lawyers insist otherwise.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

Doug Ritter is not defending poachers, he is defending millions of honest American like me. I am sorry but I think it's ridiculous that you would say that.

And by supporting the market for ivory, he is supporting poachers.
I wish it WEREN'T that way, but it is.

i get that fossil ivory is different, and if it was the only thing, i wouldn't care. BUt so long as there is an ivory market, people will poach. And yes, i would rather the endangered species (that we endangered ourselves) be saved, than a few people not be able to use fossil any more either. Its not really a loss, but offers a species to gain.

 

[Mark Knapp]

When so much money is wasted on crap like this, instead of actually repealing bans and fighting creeping legislation (the kinds that will remove any knives worth putting this crap on), you fight for jewelery..
Frankly, had i known, i would have never wasted my money. I believed that the group stood to protect knives, not poachers and archeologists...

Furthermore, I raised the money for him so he could use it as it was intended. You raise him some money and then maybe what you say will have some merit.

 

[beaconterraone]

And by supporting the market for ivory, he is supporting poachers.

An irrational statement, in light of the plain facts. It's no more valid than "buying a gun is supporting the Charlie Hebdo gun-toting terrorists."

Internal sale of previously-owned ivory within the United States is not "supporting the market" for ivory, since importation of Elephant ivory is illegal, and essentially, completely shutdown. The primary supply to demand line is from Africa to China. Since the Chinese really don't care, Americans must be targeted so "activists" can "feel good" about their (non-)"accomplishment."

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Furthermore, I raised the money for him so he could use it as it was intended. You raise him some money and then maybe what you say will have some merit.

Frankly, he won't get any of my money for fear he'll use it on issues only peripherally related to his stated cause.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

Furthermore, I raised the money for him so he could use it as it was intended. You raise him some money and then maybe what you say will have some merit.

Having supported KR in the past, and now regretting it seeing their stance, that mistake won't be happening again...

An irrational statement, in light of the plain facts. It's no more valid than "buying a gun is supporting the Charlie Hebdo gun-toting terrorists."

Internal sale of previously-owned ivory within the United States is not "supporting the market" for ivory, since importation of Elephant ivory is illegal, and essentially, completely shutdown. The primary supply to demand line is from Africa to China. Since the Chinese really don't care, Americans must be targeted so "activists" can "feel good" about their (non-)"accomplishment."

Yes, the US is not the only market (but if you really think the trade here has been stemmed at all, you are foolish; as so many noted.. since you can't prove its "pre-ban" ivory, there is nothing to stop trade once its here), but you have to start somewhere. Of course the other markets aren't us. And maybe, just maybe, if we stand up for the right thing, and are willing to take the first step, others will follow.

 

[RX-79G]

This type of attitude brings to mind a famous poem.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Is the "me" in the last line an elephant, or an ivory investor?



This fight is nothing like gun rights. The firearms are protection against tyranny, regardless of the unfortunate violence associated with them. Ivory does not protect anything. The loss is monetary and aesthetic.

It isn't tyranny when a society decides to put an end to a destructive practice.