Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

SunOfAtom said:
Here, let me simplify my previous statement:

I fully support a ban on the sale of ivory.

Doug is associated with a group called Knife Rights, and has picked an issue so toxic that he can't even garner support from a group of people that spend their Saturday nights on a knife forum. If he is this deaf to the wishes of the public (and knife enthusiasts), perhaps lobbying is not his calling.
Click to expand...

I stand with Doug. You may be flippant with your rights, but I am not. You support the godless thieves in Washington. Banning the sale is stealing profits, needless to say the confiscation of that object *Cough* *AR-15* *Cough*. Have you forgotten? "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
 
gedlicks said:
burning-ivory-stockpiles-in-kenya.jpg

Photo from: http://robshumaker.com/2012/10/blood-ivory/

Maybe if this was a pile of the poachers themselves being burned it would send a better message to future poachers.
Click to expand...

Have you forgotten the conditions of Africa? When my grandfather was in Africa a legless man through himself unto him and begged him for money, hanging onto the cab decrying for money; and so did everyone else! Where is your compassion and love for your African brother? For many the choice is HUNT OR DIE! Let every elephant DIE so that ONE MAN may live! "Likewise to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heaven, and to everything that moveth upon the earth, which hath life in itself, every green herb shall be for meat, and it was so." Let the animals reduce the famine! A slaughter of man for animals is one only a pagan would make!
Why would you choose an ANIMAL over a MAN! I think I may have found your god.
Worshiping_the_golden_calf.jpg

I hope you heed these words and no longer put an ANIMAL before a MAN! I love you I don't want to hear such horrific things brother!
 
Twindog said:
Yes, our bans have not been effective because they are weak and backed by virtually no enforcement mechanism. Any knifemaker can buy illegal ivory, craft it into a knife handle and tell the buyer it's pre-ban ivory. There is no enforcement body that can counter that claim. When enforcement officers walk into a shop filled with ivory products, the owner says they are all pre-ban. There is no certification program that can prove that claim one way or the other, even when the officers know full well the owner is lying. They'd have to do destructive DNA testing on all the products to know which are legal, and there is no money for that kind of testing. The new bans being proposed are meant to make our laws more effective, but even the new laws are less than is needed.

You can't have a worldwide regulatory agency that says the major buyer of illegal ivory (China) is an approved and responsible buyer of ivory. By some estimated, the demand for ivory in China alone is roughly equivalent to 20,000 elephants a year, which is well above what the elephant population can sustain. And that demand in China is going to grow as China takes the jobs we sent them and grows them into the world's largest economy, which they are close to doing.
Click to expand...

This is where you are wrong, I am involved with wildlife enforcement all the time and they have been very effective in catching and prosecuting elicit ivory in the US. The USF&W service even said so. But more than that, ETIS says so. I will get you links to the studies tomorrow.
 
Elefantener said:
I stand with Doug. You may be flippant with your rights, but I am not. You support the godless thieves in Washington. Banning the sale is stealing profits, needless to say the confiscation of that object *Cough* *AR-15* *Cough*. Have you forgotten? "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Click to expand...

Wow! Wow.
 
Elefantener said:
I stand with Doug. You may be flippant with your rights, but I am not. You support the godless thieves in Washington. Banning the sale is stealing profits, needless to say the confiscation of that object *Cough* *AR-15* *Cough*. Have you forgotten? "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Click to expand...


It's official. I cannot go anywhere on the Internet without some wackjob claiming something he/she doesn't like is against the teachings of the Bible, not because the Good Book says so, but because they lack an actual argument.
Plus as an ordained minister and believer in (moderate) gun control, I believe God would tell you that a bolt-action would suit your rifle needs, but if you must have a semi-auto then get an AK
 
Here's one of the ETIS studies I have gotten some of my information from;

https://cmsdata.iucn.org/downloads/african_elephant_summit_background_document_2013_en.pdf

In Fig.13 is a map and legend that show where the ivory from poached elephants has been going since 2008.

In figure 12 it shows the US was a very small consumer of poached elephant ivory. One of the smallest of all the ivory consuming nations at under 2000 kg in the 9 year period from the year 2000-2008.

Another study I saw showed we had the highest rate of seizures (by far) in the years 1989 to 2000 but the lowest in actual kilos seized of the 98 countries in the study. What this means is that unknowing Americans are bringing home trinkets and jewelry from other countries. We are not the ivory smuggling syndicate based outlaws some of you think we are. It also shows that the US is doing a really good job of stopping ivory at it's borders.

I will try to get a link to that study in the morning.

Good night everybody.
 
Mark Knapp said:
This is where you are wrong, I am involved with wildlife enforcement all the time and they have been very effective in catching and prosecuting elicit ivory in the US. The USF&W service even said so. But more than that, ETIS says so. I will get you links to the studies tomorrow.
Click to expand...


US Fish & Wildlife is working on measures to stiffen rules on the importation of elephant ivory, largely because the weak, existing rules serve as a cover for illegal poaching. The ivory market is so large that the agency says the existence of the species is in doubt.

Tons of illegal ivory are seized in the US, but it is only a tiny portion of the full trafficking in illegal ivory. The US market is a major contributor to the decimation of wild elephants, according to the agency.

Some links and quotes:


Illegal ivory trade is driving a dramatic increase in African elephant poaching, threatening the very existence of this species. It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory, such as ivory imported in the 1970s, from ivory derived from elephant poaching. Our criminal investigations and anti-smuggling efforts have shown clearly that legal ivory trade can serve as a cover for illegal trade. By significantly restricting ivory trade in the United States, it will be more difficult to launder illegal ivory into the market and thus reduce the threat of poaching to imperiled elephant populations.

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html#11


On November 14, 2013, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service destroyed six tons of elephant ivory seized over the years by its special agents and wildlife inspectors in connection with violations of U.S. wildlife laws and treaties. Since that time, the courts have ordered the forfeiture of another full ton based on Service investigations of ivory trafficking….

The poaching crisis not only takes a toll on wildlife, it affects communities as well. Insurgents and organized crime groups cash in on the money to be made from ivory, killing tens of thousands of elephants while gunning down park rangers who work to protect them.

http://www.fws.gov/le/elephant-ivory-crush.html

It is estimated that poachers, working with criminal syndicates, systematically killed as many as 35,000 elephants in 2012. Globally, illegal ivory trade activity has more than doubled since 2007. With revenues totaling many billions of dollars, wildlife trafficking is estimated to be fourth largest transnational crime in the world.
“The U.S. market is contributing to the crisis now threatening the African elephant,” said U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe. “The largely unregulated domestic trade in elephant ivory has served as a loophole that gives cover for illegal trade.

http://www.doi.gov/news/pressreleas...t-to-combat-poaching-wildlife-trafficking.cfm
 
Mark Knapp said:
You don't actually know when I became an investor of ivory. When I became an investor in ivory (I'm am a very small investor, it's not the reason I am engaged in this debate) all of the ivory I invested in was legal, and it still is. It's interesting to me that you chose that part of all I had to say and disregarded all the rest
Click to expand...
Mark, you have consistently disregarded fully half of all the points I've made here today. So I don't think that's a good tack to take with me.

You are clinging to a very legalistic argument. That isn't going to convert anyone. Congratulations on not having any poached ivory. That makes all the ivory that's passed through your hands of "legally" killed elephants blood free and righteous, right? Kumbaya.

You don't believe Western morality can influence the East. But you also believe that foot binding is still a problem. Both are patently untrue.


And, your biggest ally on this thread is a guy who's posting blasphemously fake Scripture and writing in King James English. The people with the unrealistic world view do not seem to be the anti-ivory crowd.


Your best bet is to sell what you have, while the market is still intact, and walk away. Everyone who wants dead elephant parts can buy them, everyone who is concerned with their wallets can invest in something less ecologically disastrous.

While it might be hard to believe that people don't give a crap about elephants, it is actually harder to believe the type mental arithmetic people will go to defend their little slice of an evil old industry. Killing elephants was never noble or worthwhile - it just wasn't illegal in the old days. "Ethical ivory" is as pointless as avoiding blood diamonds because it still fosters demand for something the earth can no longer provide. That demand has to end.


Now why don't we all get back to denying global warming? Because the "statistics" say that's not happening and nobody's fault, either. Therefore, all our hands are clean and we should buy beachfront property.
 
Elefantener said:
Have you forgotten the conditions of Africa? When my grandfather was in Africa a legless man through himself unto him and begged him for money, hanging onto the cab decrying for money; and so did everyone else! Where is your compassion and love for your African brother? For many the choice is HUNT OR DIE! Let every elephant DIE so that ONE MAN may live! "Likewise to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heaven, and to everything that moveth upon the earth, which hath life in itself, every green herb shall be for meat, and it was so." Let the animals reduce the famine! A slaughter of man for animals is one only a pagan would make!
Why would you choose an ANIMAL over a MAN! I think I may have found your god.
Worshiping_the_golden_calf.jpg

I hope you heed these words and no longer put an ANIMAL before a MAN! I love you I don't want to hear such horrific things brother!
Click to expand...

lol, i know i'm feeding a troll...but me and my pagan boyfriend think this guy kinda rules :) sid
 
First:
To the Bible guy- we were supposed to be "Good Stewards" over the creatures under us. How is killing something for it's ornamental value "good stewardship"? there are program emplaced already to cull the sick and injured of the elephant herd, and personally, I don't think that ivory from that, or sanctioned "tribal hunts" should be restricted. A lot of the problem seems to be that Africa has nothing set up to mark and track "legally and properly harvested" ivory.
Second,
if Ivory is all that great, why isn't someone farming elephants? Why have Sally Struthers begging us to 'feed the children" when elephant farming would yield meat, hides, AND large monetary assets in the form of ivory sales? i know raising meat is usually cost-prohibitive, but apparently not in this case, what with the tusks. Not to mention the immediate turnaround of the population.
I don't get how i can have 5 beers and see this, but the entire African continent CANT. :D
Rather than all this legislation, everyone should take the time they'll use to decry every little thing and figure out the feasibility of running a profitable elephant farm. Elephants are already widely used as beasts of burden, what's wrong with that in the underdeveloped regions? Breed the elephants, treat them well, as livestock, put them to work farming, plowing, etc, and when the time is right, humanely slaughter them, feed your populace, and collect the ivory for commercial sale?
I keep forgetting, the US is supposed to solve everything. If you start your elephant farm, and it gets raided by your local tribal warlord, hey, grow a pair and fight. Don't get pissy, I mean hell, i already came up with the whole "elephant farm concept", i don't have the time to come and have a coup in every african backwater where you cannot seem to figure out the basic concept of properly using the very things available to your own fortuitiousness. ;) Also, for a bunch of indigent starving mofos, they have email enough to all tell me they're african princes, and if i just send them my bank account info, i'll be rich. Why don't all these Princes do something..?
 
Last edited:
Elefantener said:
I stand with Doug. You may be flippant with your rights, but I am not. You support the godless thieves in Washington. Banning the sale is stealing profits, needless to say the confiscation of that object *Cough* *AR-15* *Cough*. Have you forgotten? "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Click to expand...

You do know that god does not exist? Just an ancient male frat fantasy to get laid.
 
I don't know why knife rights is looking at this at all. Legalize autos and balis, don't waste my time on the jewelry trade.
 
bakofried said:
I don't know why knife rights is looking at this at all. Legalize autos and balis, don't waste my time on the jewelry trade.
Click to expand...

This. If you want my money to help with knife rights issues, please don't make me feel like it will be wasted on peripheral issues.
 
I do not support ANY ban on ivory of any kind regardless of it being "new" ivory or pre-1977 ivory. There is not a thing anyone can say to convince me otherwise that somehow a ban will keep the African elephants from extinction. The problem is not the little people here in the US, the problem is enforcement at the source.

If the Africans don't kill them for the ivory, they'll kill them for the meat.
 
Last edited:
What small view of the world. If the ivory didn't have a market, then the animals would not be killed. To say they would be killed for the meat is just plain false. If this were true, then why are so many elephants found dead with just the ivory missing?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top