Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

Vernal2014 said:
What small view of the world. If the ivory didn't have a market, then the animals would not be killed. To say they would be killed for the meat is just plain false. If this were true, then why are so many elephants found dead with just the ivory missing?
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Actually, my view is not small at all. It's based on observing human nature. As populations increase, there really isn't much room for elephants except in the protected areas as they are very destructive. With some rigorous enforcement, maybe that elephant wouldn't be found dead with the tusks cut off.... In general these people are poor by US standards and life is very fragile. I have no idea about the meat other than I know that the meat is used when licensed hunters take an elephant. African elephants are doomed except inside the parks. A ban worldwide will only increase the killing. People of means want what others can't have. A ban won't change anything other than impact regular folks that might have a knife handle made of ivory or the keys on their pianos.
 
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155440 said:
This is where I stand, if any of these laws will save a single elephant, than full steam ahead. Unfortunately it seems like these laws are achieving nothing at the expense of American citizens. Perhaps the time and money going in to this endeavor could be spent in a better and more effective way. I live in New Jersey, where it is now illegal to own ivory including fossilized ivory. I've never owned ivory and probably never will. It seems a little silly that I shouldn't be allowed to own a knife with a handle made out of fossil walrus ivory that was used as originally used as tool by Inuit native Americans centuries ago because of illegal poachers in Africa.

Here is a photo taken by a family member last week at an elephant orphanage in Sri Lanka
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Darn. I guess my ideology isn't extreme enough to merit a response.
 
RX-79G said:
Mark, you have consistently disregarded fully half of all the points I've made here today. So I don't think that's a good tack to take with me.

You are clinging to a very legalistic argument. That isn't going to convert anyone. Congratulations on not having any poached ivory. That makes all the ivory that's passed through your hands of "legally" killed elephants blood free and righteous, right? Kumbaya.

You don't believe Western morality can influence the East. But you also believe that foot binding is still a problem. Both are patently untrue.


And, your biggest ally on this thread is a guy who's posting blasphemously fake Scripture and writing in King James English. The people with the unrealistic world view do not seem to be the anti-ivory crowd.


Your best bet is to sell what you have, while the market is still intact, and walk away. Everyone who wants dead elephant parts can buy them, everyone who is concerned with their wallets can invest in something less ecologically disastrous.

While it might be hard to believe that people don't give a crap about elephants, it is actually harder to believe the type mental arithmetic people will go to defend their little slice of an evil old industry. Killing elephants was never noble or worthwhile - it just wasn't illegal in the old days. "Ethical ivory" is as pointless as avoiding blood diamonds because it still fosters demand for something the earth can no longer provide. That demand has to end.


Now why don't we all get back to denying global warming? Because the "statistics" say that's not happening and nobody's fault, either. Therefore, all our hands are clean and we should buy beachfront property.
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For some reason you and I are not understanding each other.

I don't think I have disregarded any point you have tried to make, I am addressing them with my own points and siting you the references where you can check my facts.

I have never been a dealer in elephant ivory, It has never come through my hands. I own one two pound piece of pre-act Asian elephant ivory.

I did not say that foot binding did not exist, I asked you if you thought things like slavery and foot binding do not exist. I believe that things like foot binding and slavery still exist, but i have not studied those things and don't know about them. I have studied the ivory issue.

My biggest ally in this are articles that I sited and the studies done by ETIS, I don't know who that guy is, I cannot answer for the things he is saying.

As I said before I am not invested in elephant ivory, this is not a financial thing for me.

At issue here is, what is the best way to save elephants, I say a ban on ancient ivory and pre-act ivory is not the way, and I am siting the studies that support what I have said.
 
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I guess my carving of the Taj Mahal will be illegal to own. It was a present. Those ivory grips on handguns..... knife handles......

THE issue is how to save the African elephant from extinction and how to go about that. Banning ivory is not going to stop the killing as the ivory will just become more valuable. These are poor people and I have heard that a couple tusks might be a years income or more. You going to take food out of their mouths?
 
No USA ban, nor any world wide ban will stop the poaching of elephants. One does not need reports and articles to tell them that, just a basic knowledge of fundamental human behavior, and a little bit of history.

There will always be people who want what they cannot have, and there will always be people willing to supply it to them. The only thing an ivory ban will do, is cause the prices of ivory to rise, thus giving more incentive for poachers to collect and sell illicitly obtained ivory. It is simple cause and effect - There is no way around it, and there is no way to stop it.

At the risk of comparing apples to oranges, the same thing happened with prohibition. After 1920, arrests for public drunkenness and other alcoholic related offenses rose to record highs. It is human nature to eat the forbidden fruit, so to speak.

Let me be clear - I do not condone the poaching of elephants, or any animals for that matter. It is just my beliefs that a ban on ivory will not save any elephants, and will only fuel the demand for it.
 
22-rimfire said:
I guess my carving of the Taj Mahal will be illegal to own. It was a present. Those ivory grips on handguns..... knife handles......

THE issue is how to save the African elephant from extinction and how to go about that. Banning ivory is not going to stop the killing as the ivory will just become more valuable. These are poor people and I have heard that a couple tusks might be a years income or more. You going to take food out of their mouths?
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We are discussing a ban on the sale of ivory, not ownership.
 
Mark Knapp said:
For some reason you and I are not understanding each other.

I don't think I have disregarded any point you have tried to make, I am addressing them with my own points and siting you the places where you can check them.

I have never been a dealer in elephant ivory, I has ever come through my hands. I own one two pound piece of pre-act Asian elephant ivory.

I did not say that foot binding did not exist, I asked you if you thought things like slavery and foot binding do not exist. I believe that things like foot binding and slavery still exist, but i have not studied those things and don't know about them. I have studied the ivory issue.

My biggest ally in this are articles that I sited and the studies done by ETIS, I don't know who that guy is, I cannot answer for the things he is saying.

As I said before I am not invested in elephant ivory, this is not a financial thing for me.

At issue here is, what is the best way to save elephants, I say a ban on ancient ivory and pre-act ivory is not the way, and I am siting the studies that support what I have said.
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I had thought you said that you SELL ivory and ivory handled knives. Did I misunderstand that you deal in ivory?

You are standing behind a study that used statistical analysis of global ivory ILLEGAL trade. What it is not is a study of the trade of all ivory, nor is it a sociological study of the change in consumer behavior due to out-market influences. It's just a math calculation.

Despite that, you feel adequately briefed on consumer behavior to swear up and down that a gross reduction in ivory transactions in the West can't possibly impact consumer behavior in China. I don't know how you acquired that expertise, aside from observing that dumb human behavior never completely goes away.


Slavery still exists in illicit forms, but is illegal in fact EVERYWHERE. That started with the Magna Carta, then Europe, Far East, Americas, Middle East and finally Mauritania in 1981. Abolitionism is an idea that started in the West and eventually proved more powerful than consumer behavior and greed. That suggests to me that anything essentially foolhardy and evil can go away if the most informed people (that's currently us) put our money where our mouths are and believe it. If you are righteous, the world will eventually conform.

If China sees that the West thinks ivory is barbarous, it will become barbarous in China. If China sees that it is just trade regulation, and the West loves them some ivory, they will continue to value it as well.

Ivory is and should be the fruit of the forbidden tree. Being civilized citizens, we should be horrified by the results of our forebear's actions that created this appalling global market for elephant body parts. We should dedicate ourselves to a united effort to strip ivory of its allure as a decorative material and investment.

You say that's a wasted effort. I say that's the least we can do as the people who set the global standard and contributed so heavily to the loss of the species in the first place. Holding out exceptions because of money is little different than not trying criminals because they come from privilege. Ethics is not something that money can touch.

Bottom line: The valuing of ivory as a commodity over the last several hundred years has proven to produce such evil that we should be HAPPY to abolish its trade, not looking for loopholes. It's a crime we started and we should do everything we can to end it.

It will never end completely, but a reduction in elephant deaths of 95% would not be a wasted effort.

Or, we can polish our off-white trinkets and forget about doing anything good for the sake of it.
 
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Wow!!!!!!RX, you amaze me with your useless knowledge from CNN......Do you think maybe the population of humans multiplying 100X over the past 300 years might have something to do with it?????? When I see you preaching "population control" to this audience, then maybe I will start to listen to you.......then maybe I'll buy into you,
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marks ivory comes from ancient walrus, not elephant. the problem is, for all intensive purposes, ivory is ivory. yes there is a difference between walrus and elephant, heck there is a difference between asian and african elephant ivory. as long as one form of ivory is still legal and sought after, there will be a market for the highest quality ivory. this is why the trade of ALL ivory needs to be banned. history proves a complete ban in the us and canada 'eh' with strict enforcement and severe penalties would make a huge difference on the global market. my last words in this debate, peace :)
 
RX-79G said:
I think you are missing my two points:

1. If any ivory has value, all ivory has value. The value creates demand. If Westerners decide ivory is tacky because of its sordid origin, the Chinese will also start to see it that way, too. Foot binding and slavery also went away when the most civilized societies declared them disgusting.

2. Ivory is a bit like child pornography. It should never have been okay. If the photograph was 100 years old, does that make it okay to own?
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.....The Chinese civilization/culture has been using ivory for multiple purposes, before the so-called "westerners" even came west, well before America was considered established.....The Chinese government despises the US and is not going to follow our lead.

If elephant ivory is like child porn, then mammoth ivory is like a picture or video of a landscape....I was going to equate it to adult porn, but I feel that is a stretch.....THERE IS A VICTIM IN CHILD PORN AND ELEPHANT IVORY, Who is the victim in harvesting mammoth ivory or taking/having a picture or video of a landscape...,.....
 
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Elefantener said:
Have you forgotten the conditions of Africa? When my grandfather was in Africa a legless man through himself unto him and begged him for money, hanging onto the cab decrying for money; and so did everyone else! Where is your compassion and love for your African brother? For many the choice is HUNT OR DIE! Let every elephant DIE so that ONE MAN may live! "Likewise to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heaven, and to everything that moveth upon the earth, which hath life in itself, every green herb shall be for meat, and it was so." Let the animals reduce the famine! A slaughter of man for animals is one only a pagan would make!
Why would you choose an ANIMAL over a MAN! I think I may have found your god.
Worshiping_the_golden_calf.jpg

I hope you heed these words and no longer put an ANIMAL before a MAN! I love you I don't want to hear such horrific things brother!
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I don't know what part of the world you live in....But man is an animal, unfortunately and definitely, the most destructive one...The God I worship has little reason to be happy with what I've spent the last hour reading
 
SunOfAtom said:
We are discussing a ban on the sale of ivory, not ownership.
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I'm aware of that, but eventually I may just want to sell something that uses ivory or made of ivory and for the most part that will be illegal. In particular, handgun grips... I don't know anyone who actually has "papers" documenting the source or age of any ivory they might have in their possession. There may be documentation, but it is not normally provided.

A ban will not stop the poaching. That is a fact. Rigorous enforcement might (reduce it actually) and I mean essentially the poachers are shot not apprehended when caught in some of the African countries where elephants still roam wild.

Hunting is part of the solution. Elephants can be quite a cash "crop" for countries that take advantage of hunting by westerners who can afford the opportunity to hunt one of these magnificent beasts.
 
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I have no first hand experience with the material, but I thought, as a maferial, ivory has a tendency to warp or crack with temp/humidity fluctuation. If that's the case, why would it be a desirable material for a knife handle, something I could see experiencing a huge swing in temperature between use/nonuse, as well as exposure to moisture or acidity if using to process game.

Also, to keep it light, narwhal is where it's at.
 
Why can the naturally dead ones not be harvested? What happens to all of the gator hides legally harvested in Louisiana and evirons? Where does it go? The whole world consumes horse except the U.S....Marlboros too.

Obla di, obla da....
 
Count me in with those having no issue with banning the sale, trade, or transfer of ivory.
 
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