Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

RX-79G said:
Slavery still exists in illicit forms, but is illegal in fact EVERYWHERE.
Click to expand...

RX,
Your words and common sense tell us it's futile to make another law when the laws that already exists have not work. If one more law could be counted upon to stop the slaughter I'd be all for it. Laws have not eliminated slavery, murder, drug abuse, prostitution ... or the illegal ivory trade.

Some well intentioned laws have in actuality, made the situation worse by escalating the price of ivory thereby making the illegal trade more profitable and enticing. A law cannot and will never legislate morality. It appears that the laws being proposed will make criminals of people who until the law is passed were law abiding, while accomplishing nothing to stem the tide of the illegal ivory trade.

Maybe it's time to stop relying on passing one more law that dictates what we are not allowed to do and look toward something that can be done to fix the problem. I believe poverty, greed and selfishness are the root causes of this situation. Consider what concentrating efforts and resources on the enforcement of existing laws while helping people to overcome poverty might do... What might be possible if we focus on helping people to have a heart change through education?

Laws that disallow activities will at best force compliance but only to the degree and duration that they are enforced. Tactics that enable people have the possibility of permanently eliminating a problem by destroying the root cause.

If the choice was mine I would chose to enable people vs. disable.
 
Hi Mark,

I've only read a couple of pages so far so I don't know how this discussion has turned out just yet.

I wanted to say that, despite that fact that I lean more towards doing whatever we can here to de-value, if not stop, the trade and sale of ivory (whilst recognizing that these bans here are, at best, symbolic gestures that will have no real affect) I appreciate the calm, measured and rational way you have thus far presented your views on the subject. Thank you.

I agree we need to be more active in this fight at the source, and your comment regarding the government assuming your guilt until you can prove otherwise is, I believe, also poignant. I think on the whole I lean a bit further in the "this is okay" side of things, but I feel your points are sound, logical, and have merit. Again, thanks.
 
Larry Turko said:
Your post shows some insight but your first sentence is a howler!! I'm a Canadian so I know you're wrong because Canada is the best nation in the World. Of course as an American you've almost certainly never been to Cuba but many people there are quite open about Cuba being the best nation in the world.
Click to expand...

Cuba is a bit like China, in that often what's reported is statistically inaccurate when compared with what is true (and I'm a young guy with no personal vendetta against Cuba, certainly). They do lead the world in literacy (if I remember correctly) but the number of free news organizations that still need to operate underground worries me. It's not a bad nation by any means (again, in my relatively new opinion on the subject) but to call it the best would be to condone some things for which we, as people,, should not stand.

Anyway I don't want to get too off topic, I'll leave it at that.
 
Elefantener said:
Have you forgotten the conditions of Africa? When my grandfather was in Africa a legless man through himself unto him and begged him for money, hanging onto the cab decrying for money; and so did everyone else! Where is your compassion and love for your African brother? For many the choice is HUNT OR DIE! Let every elephant DIE so that ONE MAN may live! "Likewise to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heaven, and to everything that moveth upon the earth, which hath life in itself, every green herb shall be for meat, and it was so." Let the animals reduce the famine! A slaughter of man for animals is one only a pagan would make!
Why would you choose an ANIMAL over a MAN! I think I may have found your god.
Worshiping_the_golden_calf.jpg

I hope you heed these words and no longer put an ANIMAL before a MAN! I love you I don't want to hear such horrific things brother!
Click to expand...

My friend, I don't know you and I think your heart is in the right place.

But some persons, who willfully choose to discard their humanity, punishment must be swift and effective. Would I advocate the slaughtering of poachers? Not likely. But I am not certain I would shed tears for them either. I doubt they are doing this to feed their families (at least, for the most part).

In addition, from what you profess, you have a responsibility to be a good steward to the earth we've been given, and all creatures in it. God expects it of you. And me.

(that's the only time I'll bring religion into this, please don't slap me mods.)
 
Last edited:
Me too! Ban ivory 100%. If you have it now, you can keep it, but not sell it. No new ivory, regardless of the source.

The "logic" used to defend the continued sale of ivory (regardless of the source) is at best myopic and at worst purely duplicitous.
 
Are they trying to ban all ivory or just elephant ivory? I'm fine with it if it's elephant ivory.
 
Redmasta said:
I mean isn't all animal tusk ivory? That's what I was asking.
Click to expand...

Good question. I actually do not know... but if that is true I guess it begs the question of whether we should also be making sure those animals are safe too... I suppose they have a right to be, endangered or not.
 
RedLynx said:
According to the title it includes mammoth ivory as well.
Click to expand...

But if we don't save the mammoths, who will?
Can you imagine the horror of living in a world without mammoths roaming freely across the tundra?
Save the mammoths!!!
 
stabman said:
But if we don't save the mammoths, who will?
Can you imagine the horror of living in a world without mammoths roaming freely across the tundra?
Save the mammoths!!!
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree that part makes no sense at all mate, but technically it isn't just the olyphants they're after. ;)
 
RedLynx said:
I absolutely agree that part makes no sense at all mate, but technically it isn't just the olyphants they're after. ;)
Click to expand...

If they want to save the elephants, find a way to hook the African people up with jobs.
Even our minimum wage pays far more than any poacher gets.

Hell, if it means I have to hang up on more foreign telemarketers in order to save elephants, I can do that. :)

But another idiotic, pointless, go-nowhere ban won't solve anything, and I won't pretend it does in order to salve my conscience (which feels just fine anyway :thumbup:).
 
If mammoth ivory were legal then there would still be a demand for ivory. Better to extinguish all products and demand.
 
Medvjed said:
If mammoth ivory were legal then there would still be a demand for ivory. Better to extinguish all products and demand.
Click to expand...

Right, because that worked for all those drugs that have been banned.
Which is why there's no heroin, meth, or cocaine in the USA or Canada, or anywhere else in the world.

Oh wait...that's right...it didn't work...
 
A ban mostly hurts honest people. An ivory ban will be about as effective as making many drugs illegal or alcohol. There are lots of drugs around and available.
 
Medvjed said:
If mammoth ivory were legal then there would still be a demand for ivory. Better to extinguish all products and demand.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forums, although that's not technically true, as several documentaries and statistical findings will show you.

To use another example, drug dealers are quite happy their product is illegal in many places. I would be too, if I could make that much money. I'd make much less if it suddenly became legal.

Again, I do lean more toward the do whatever you need to, in order to save the elephants side of things, but I also realize the bans they're proposing will mostly only make people feel good. Which is not what I want to do. And I live in one of the states the thread mentions.
 
stabman said:
If they want to save the elephants, find a way to hook the African people up with jobs.
Even our minimum wage pays far more than any poacher gets.

Hell, if it means I have to hang up on more foreign telemarketers in order to save elephants, I can do that. :)

But another idiotic, pointless, go-nowhere ban won't solve anything, and I won't pretend it does in order to salve my conscience (which feels just fine anyway :thumbup:).
Click to expand...

I have to admit I am not familiar enough with the state of the African workforce to know if poaching is a necessity or not, or whether they'd stop doing it if alternatives were available. if they make as little as you say, I guess they would though.

I tend to perhaps fall a bit more on the "environmental" side of things these days (although I am sure you're quite environmental yourself and I am nowhere near as good about it as I should be) because I used to not care about this stuff so much. Oftentimes it actively annoyed me, in fact.

A few years ago my girlfriend and I read an article about a guy who was arrested (or at least forced to leave the premises somehow) after protesting the loss of polar bears due to melting ice caps in turn due, I believe, to global warming. Even dressed up as a polar bear. I'm not sure what behavior got him escorted away, but I remember being generally annoyed by the guy whilst my significant other was generally sympathetic. It turned into a fairly large argument considering the issue, in fact.

She was glad at least someone was using their voice and doing something, even if it was raising awareness, and I was annoyed that he had dressed like an idiot, likely never saw a polar bear in his life, and was not doing anything to really, truly help their cause. This last probably annoyed me the most, even in my less environmentally conscious days. The current version of me would feel more sympathy for this fellow, I think, although I would likely still admit his actions did nothing to save any polar bears (which I have to assume was his goal.)

I guess my point is, I've mellowed a bit and walked a bit in other shoes to the point that I have a more open mind and more sympathy for such people and their causes. But on the other side of that, there is still more that we can do, and fairly easily, than some public protest in an effort to simply raise awareness (which is great, but awareness without action doesn't save lives). We don't have to go live with polar bears or start our own elephant rescue reserves. But as you suggest, there IS more we can do to actively be CERTAIN we've saved some of them, and I think more people need to be willing to do that, rather than simply go about their daily lives being glad they supported a ban, and are better people for it. I include myself here as well.
 
Thanks Mark my friend. You have done a good job explaining this business.. I have sold over 70, 000 pounds of mammoth tusks and ivory in the last 30 years. Not one ounce of it contributed to the demise of a elephant. Every year from 10,000 to 20,000 pound of mammoth ivory are collected by native and miners in Alaska. In Siberia the number is over 120,000 pounds.The price is higher it has ever been. When the fedral ban was first purposed a year ago I could not believe it. I now would not be surprised to see a total ban is enacted.
I have seen many hunters buy new boats and snow machines with what they have made off tusks. Ivory is a commodity ,I have seen its value go up and down over the years. The demand in China for ivory will be more affected by thier economy than how the rest of the world feels.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top