Any chance of a Camillus megafolder?

Discussion in 'Camillus Collector's Forum' started by Jim March, Jan 25, 1999.

  1. Jim March

    Jim March KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 7, 1998
    Phil, glad to hear it's at least possible.

    Let me say that my first "megafolder" was an 4.5" AlMar spearpoint lockback with Zytel grips. False edge for about 2", basic blade shape similar to a Mini Shrike. Good knife, I missed it when I lost it about six years ago. Graduated to the longer but less-durable 5.5" AlMar, then the Vaquero Grande came out.

    So...I've been packin' these for a while.

    >>1. Would you guys prefer this "Big Honkin' Folder" to have CUDA button or opening disc/stud? (No, you can't have both!)<<

    Stud or disk. One detail, once you've got a lot of blade mass you're into "snapopen city". You need to allow for that in the toughness dept. and realize that "extra stuff" on the sides are not a good idea. You'll see why when we get to carry methods.

    >>2. G10 for handle? Any other suggestions?<<

    Fine. Make sure it's well contoured to avoid a "slip up" accident on a hard target stab, where instead of penetrating the tip jams up and your fingers slip up the edge. NOT good.

    >>3. Kydex carry rig? Still need a pocket clip?<<

    Forget the clip. What I suggest is a *horizontal* Kydex carry rig where about 1/3rd of the closed blade "sticks out" and can be quickly grabbed. This is THE fastest draw rig possible; I practice with my large AlMars by holding a section of newspaper at head height with my right hand, letting go, drawing and snapping with the SAME right hand and slashing the paper at around mid-thigh height. Note: I'm fairly tall, so that helps extend the fall time...but still, it's a great party trick. I can do that about 75% of the time, I also practice a slightly slower, more secure draw sequence for "real social work" if need be.

    The same rig can also be optionally mounted as a shoulder rig, and I'd include the paracord and drawings for how to set that up.

    You want the sheath to have "laceholes" and include paracord and instructions for setting it up on any belt width without extra bulging or "different rigs for different belts". Horizontal rigs dig in when you sit down unless they're done *right*.

    >>4. ATS-34 for blade? Prefer CPM?<<

    Heat-treat it right, ATS is OK. CPM420V would be *excellent* but not at $100 more. $50 maybe. Methinks we're building a "combat monster", daily hard-utility edgeholding isn't really the point?

    >>5. Plain edge, 50/50 or full serrations?<<

    If picking one, I'd say "mostly" plain, just an inch or so at the base serrated. 50/50 is too much serrations at this blade length class.

    >>6. Choose ONE blade shape!<<

    Spearpoint, with a false edge 3" at the top, *sharpenable* and hides entirely within the grip like the Gerber Applegate.

    Line the tip right up with the thrusting force through the grip.

    EMail me at [email protected] if you want pics of the 5.5" AlMar horizontal carry rig. It's in leather, which is also practical especially if *mixed* with a bit of Kydex. Or a Cordura/Kydex mix. My horizontal rig also doubles as a mini-maglight holder, so at work I just "quick switch items" without unbelting, etc. Pick the right flashlight companion you could do the same, maybe a SureFire or something? I was just lucky the AlMar and MiniMag were near-enough-identical OD to interchange.

    Jim March
     
  2. Marcus

    Marcus

    622
    Oct 4, 1998
    Alright Phil, the wheels are a turnin! I could do without the CUDA opening button on a mega folder,the big blades have so much inertia that even a light flick done right reliably opens the blade. For socially acceptable opening or when clogged with grit etc. I`d prefer a disc. I believe they`re less likely to snag and they offer the thumb a nice big target. G10`s great. A kydex sheath would be a nice option for those so inclined but I`d like to see it with a removable pocket clip on the pivot end. BTW I feel CS really missed the boat here with the new Vaqueros because when you draw a really large folder from a pocket butt first it possitions your hand unnaturally low on the grip. Pivot up OTOH flows nicely into a correct hammer or saber grip. Also be sure the clip isn`t too "deep carry" as the grip may bottom in many pockets before the clip does. My 5" Vaquero fits in my back pocket with about an inch sticking out,this seems to be enough to get a firm purchase on it without it being obvious to easily frightened sheeple. CPM is awesome stuff but it is a little pricey. I`d be happy with ATS34 (or VG10). Maybe a limited run in CPM could be done at a later date. That`d give me a good excuse to tell my wife why I needed to buy another one. ;D For the blade a non serrated clip or spear point would be great. A 50/50 might also be a popular format although I`m still not convinced they`re a great idea. BTW a full flat grind with good edge geometry would rule. IMHO you could reach a larger number of customers with a knife that would be just as usefull in a camp sight as a dark alley. That precludes the use of a tanto profile due to their lack of versitility. With a good strong lock and the beefy blade stock and ergonomics of the present CUDA I think you`d have a real winner. Marcus

    [This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 14 February 1999).]
     
  3. Marcus

    Marcus

    622
    Oct 4, 1998
    Geeze I make one spelling correction and Jim beats me to the post. Doh! [​IMG] BTW Jim you`re right 50/50 is too much for knives this big,an inch would be better. Marcus
     
  4. Jim March

    Jim March KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 7, 1998
    Re: the clip: Marcus has it pegged. Pivot end, removable if you do one. You could, and then do the sheath as an option or direct 'em to Edgeworks Tactical or whatever, slip Scott Evans a specimen at a discount so that as a selling point there's a good aftermarket sheath "ready to go".

    Remember: encouraging aftermarket goodies HELPS SALES. It's a principle not seen often enough in the knive biz, go study the Harley Davidson market for an example.

    There's liable to be actual *competition* in the megafolder biz. REKAT is working on it, Spyderco is being dragged towards initial research kicking and screaming all the way. Don't let it scare you, look for "edges", pardon the pun. If doing an initial Kydex sheath will raise the price if you're *also* doing a clip, fine - make sure a sheath is *available*.

    And remember: 5.45" blade [​IMG]

    Phil: tell your people how big this thread is - the BIGGEST on your site, I think?

    Jim March
     
  5. Yekim

    Yekim

    813
    Nov 4, 1998
    1. Thumb Stud...on one side only, reversable.

    2. G10 is fine...Grip should be contoured as have a lower guard to prevent slipping forward.

    3. A kydex carry rig should be an aftermarket consideration, perhaps offer one as an option. I prefer a clip, on the non-pivot end. This allows for a grip that lets me have the most reach possible. On the VG a rearward grip is comfortable and strong, and gives me some more reach. Another consideration would be a leather inside the waistband sheath, similar to IWB holsters for carrying extra .45 mags. Perhaps with an adjustable pivot screw so the holster could be canted forward in either right hand or left hand carry.

    4. Just as long as it doesn't shatter when it hits the floor I am happy, you could make it out of carbon steel for all I care. I would prefer toughness over edge holding.

    5. Plain edge, or just 1-1 1/2" of serrations at the base of the blade.

    6. Blade shape...drop point, straight clip, or spear point. Just a little downward cant would be nice too. Yea, that's the ticket. I am not a fan of false edges, especially one that makes the blade loose too much thickness. If a false edge is used, please do it in a manner that allows the spine of the knife to retain its full thickness for as much of the length of the blade as possible.

    My wish is for a utilitarian knife. Making the knife for the sole purpose of combat could keep it from being useful in the woods. I am sure that it can be designed in a manner that allows the knife to have multiple roles without compromising too much from either camp.

    The overall strength of the knife is of prime concern to me. All screws should be heat treated, and should be as large as possible. The stop pins should be at least a 1/4" diameter, and all retaining screws should be in the 1/8" realm. It would also be nice if the screws were of a design that allowed easy feild stripping (READ: Enough with the Torx already!!...Flathead/Phillips please!!). Liners would preferably be about 1/16".

    YeK


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    "No, it's a Vaquero Grande in my pocket, but I am happy to see you!"
    [email protected]
    MegaFolderians Unite!!




     
  6. Jim March

    Jim March KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 7, 1998
    Yekim's doing good here. Note: Torx is a bad joke, but hex-head is actually best. VERY low "strippage rate".

    I finally pulled up some Cuda pics...handle shape is pretty good, doesn't look like it'll do a "slip-up" accident. The oddball button isn't terrible either, it doesn't stick out far enough to screw up draws.

    Just scale it all up and do a better lock, cuz a linerlock is NOT gonna work in this size range. The old Gerber Parabellum slide-button lock which is mostly what the AXIS is would work...?

    Jim March
     
  7. Phil Squire

    Phil Squire

    145
    Jan 6, 1999
    Jim, Great thread.

    Phil Gibbs and company, Go for it! Non Californians will snatch up a super size folder made of primo materials faster than shrimp at a salad bar, for the collector's value alone, particularly it being a first for Camillus. New products generate excitement , increase company exposure ,and market penetration(pun intended).

    Ats-34 with state of the art heat treat.

    Clip ,drop or spearpoint.

    Plain,for ease in resharpening,or 1-1/12 " at base for fibrous materials.

    G-10

    Removable and reversible Clip on non pivot side and a horizontal rig as suggested by Jim and on Dozier kewl Slim Outdoorsman.
    Clip slides outside kydex rig for redundant security.

    Ambi studs.

    Yek is right on the money, but I wouldn't expect anything less from an Alaskan outdoorsman. Why do I get the feeling Yekim is Mikey backward? Hope your not a cryptographer, Yek [​IMG]

    The March Megafolder is being born!
    What has papa Outsider sired? Wait and see............

    Stay safe and all the best, Phil <----<

     
  8. Yekim

    Yekim

    813
    Nov 4, 1998
    Phil,

    Yes, Yekim is Mikey backwards, I first started using it when I was doing the local BBS thing here in Anchorage, there was already too many Mikey's. That and I wanted to Mess with all of the old cb-ers that I tormented when that was my hobby...it took some of them months to figger out the Yekim thing...But anyways...I digress, this thread is about the MegaFolder...

    I think that Phil is on the right track in referencing Jim March as the patriarch of the MegaFolder, and I think it would only be fitting to name it after him too...I'd like to see it called the "Long March", a name that would have dual meanings, not only describing the overall size of the knife, but the tedious and time consuming battle to get a major manufacturer to produce one. That and I think calling it the "Long March Project" has a nice ring to it.

    We all seem to roughly agree on the shape of the knife, but the most critical consideration has yet to be addressed, at least not to my satisfaction...but my fingers are precious to me....you know what I am talking about...the LOCK....

    We all know that a liner lock is OUT. An Integral lock could work, but it would require either titanium slabs (expensive) or steel slabs (heavy). A lockback could work, but it seems really old tech, and has to be executed properly. One handed closing would be out. What would be neat is a lockback with an extra push button lock that doesn't let the toggle lock release unless finger pressure is applied to the release (like a Glock Trigger..oh well, if I am confusing you, don't feel bad, I confuse everyone). A bolt action could work if proberly made, but I think it is a Blackie Collins patent, and would possibly have to be hammered out with him. The Axis lock is a a privately owned patent, and I am not sure if Benchmade has exclusive rights to it, if they don't, it might be a thought. A LinerBar wouldn't be too offensive, but could infringe on patents that MicroTech is in the process of getting. I think it would also require aluminum scales or slabs, which are not my favorite, and machining them could add extra cost to the knife.

    The problem is that simplicity is the key to a strong lock. Anything too complicated or over engineered will be suseptable to smaller monkey wrenches.

    Ugh, enough brainstorming for me tonight...

    Yek

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    "No, it's a Vaquero Grande in my pocket, but I am happy to see you!"
    [email protected]
    MegaFolderians Unite!!




     
  9. Yekim

    Yekim

    813
    Nov 4, 1998
    I forgot one other thing. I forgot to thank Mr Gibbs for presenting the MegaFolder idea to management. I know it probably is Mr. Gibbs job to present Ideas to his bosses, but ideas that reach outside the norm can be a tricky ordeal. I wholeheartedly thank him for his, and his managers', openmindedness on this subject. After all of the stonewalling that proponents of the Long March Project have recieved from other manufacturers, it is refreshing to find that a company with the history and prestige of Camillus has an open ear.

    Yek

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    "No, it's a Vaquero Grande in my pocket, but I am happy to see you!"
    [email protected]
    MegaFolderians Unite!!




     
  10. KenN

    KenN

    354
    Jan 26, 1999
    I know some people despise the 'me too' post, but everything I wanted to say has already been said!

    real quick:

    A real massive, ugly, brutally, ogre-like strong lock, with smooth/slick opening.

    Multi-purpose (Tactical-utility)design.

    G-10 is fine.

    Plain edge.

    Choices are subject to change without notice. [​IMG]

    Good job people!

    Thanks,
    Ken
     
  11. Marcus

    Marcus

    622
    Oct 4, 1998
    Well said YeK! Projest LongMarch has a certain lyrical quality doesn`t it? You`re right about the lock too. I`m not one to put too much trust in mechanical safeties but it sure can`t hurt. I`m not against a good sturdy lockback. It works for the Vaqueros,why not for the LongMarch? Sure a techno lock would be cooler but as long as it`s brute strong who cares if it`s old tech? It should also expedite production and keep costs down. Rekat seems to be working on a rolling lock mega folder(5") so maybe a monster CUDA priced between the Vaquero and the upcoming Rekat would find itself in a good market niche. You know,almost as big as the Vaquero but much better quality; bigger than the upcoming Rekat,almost as strong and cheaper. If we ever see anything from Spyderco only Sal knows. Finally,I second YeK`s thanks to Phil. Um, thanks Phil! Marcus
     
  12. Mark W Douglas

    Mark W Douglas

    Nov 16, 1998
    I have to make my comment short and sweet because I have to get to work here ....


    BIG IS BETTER [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Mark

    " Knife Collectors Are Sharp People "



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  13. Jim March

    Jim March KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 7, 1998
    Unfortunately, "LongMarch" has bad connotations that relate to getting licked by a small rodent.

    "MousyToung".

    OK, sorry, bad pun. But regardless, naming it after a memorable Communist event probably ain't a good idea.

    Jim March
     
  14. Yekim

    Yekim

    813
    Nov 4, 1998
    OOps, IT was just a thought...I still like the sound of it, but You do have a point.

    yeK



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    ---------------------------------------------------

    "No, it's a Vaquero Grande in my pocket, but I am happy to see you!"
    [email protected]
    MegaFolderians Unite!!




     
  15. Yekim

    Yekim

    813
    Nov 4, 1998
    Another brainstorming session.....

    Regarding thumbstuds, I prefer a single, reversable one, as to eliminat snagging in the pocket, but a thought crossed my mind that A) Would add strength to the knife, and B) possibly lessen the snagging effect of dual studs (well sorta).

    Masters of defense style rounded thumbstuds that, when the blade is open, would rest against the handle material. This is a feature I liked about the BM Sentinal, and the MOD series of knives. This would lessen the stress in the stop pin/toggle lock pin, and spread any forces exerted on the knife over a larger area, so no one component would take the brunt of any hacking or chopping.


    Big March?
    Tall March?
    Extended March?
    Completely unrelated in any way to communism and China Long March?
    Aw hell....Hey Jim, what would YOU name it? It is sort of your baby.
    I just don't like acronyms for names. Or names like "blahblah 9000"

    YeK

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    "No, it's a Vaquero Grande in my pocket, but I am happy to see you!"
    [email protected]
    MegaFolderians Unite!!




     
  16. Jim March

    Jim March KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 7, 1998
    Yekim, I appreciate where you're headed here...but...I don't care *what* they name it so long as they BUILD IT! [​IMG]

    Jim March
     
  17. amacks

    amacks Gold Member Gold Member

    658
    Oct 13, 1998
    They're probably illegal here, but who cares! I think that a dhumb disk is a little better than a stud, I get a better grip on them, but that's me. For handles, I think a glass filled nylon(zytel, or that stuff EDI uses) would be better than G10, cheaper and lighter.
    Aaron

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    My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me King of the Universe!
    [email protected]
     
  18. prigger

    prigger

    233
    Jan 18, 1999
    Hey, I like big folders, also what about "FORCE MARCH"? There's alot of grunts who know what that is.
    PR
     
  19. Yekim

    Yekim

    813
    Nov 4, 1998
    I want it built as muh as you do Jim, but with all of the time in between progress updates, I figgered I'd have some fun naming it.

    YeK

    Hmmm...
    Camillo Grande?
    Marcho Grande?
    BattleYek?


    Oh, well


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    ---------------------------------------------------

    "No, it's a Vaquero Grande in my pocket, but I am happy to see you!"
    [email protected]
    MegaFolderians Unite!!




     
  20. Jim March

    Jim March KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 7, 1998
    [​IMG]
     

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