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Anybody tried the Randall Training Knife w/ D2 Blade?
- Thread starter Hamp
- Start date
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- Jul 29, 2004
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yes d2 is a fine knife material, and pretty corrosion ressistant.
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- Mar 7, 2005
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Given the size and balance of the knife, I don't think it is at all similiar to the old Steelheart. Based on the fact that you want a Steelheart style knife, I am assuming you want a knife for hard outdoors use. If you truly want an old school Steelheart style knife suitable for hard use at a bargain price, check out Justin Gingrich's RD7. You can get them from Sage Creek Outfitters. http://www.sagecreekoutfitters.com/ The flat grind model with the satin finish and orange scales look ideal for a hard use knife.
Image borrowed from Sage Creek Outfitters as referenced above.
As for the Rat7:
With the same knife being offered in 1095, you have to consider what you are going to do with the knife, examine the material properties of each steel and decide which is better suited for your needs.
If you want a decent degree of rust resistance, cut a lot of abbrasive materials like cardboard, carpet, skinning game, cut lots of rope, etc, and do not use your knives for impact intensive chores, like chopping hard woods, splitting wood with knots, etc, then the D2 version would probably be a good choice. I have not used the D2 version and can offer no real opinion on the heat treat. You may want to search this forum and others to see if their have been any complaints about Ontario's D2 heat treat. IF there has been, you should take that into consideration, but also take into consideration that if there is a problem Ontario has been very good about replacing defective knives based on the numerous reports on this and other forums.
If you are going to be using the knife for hard use tasks, such as the chopping and splitting referenced above, or any sort of prying you may want to consider the 1095 version. I have the 1095 version, and it is similiar to a large Gerber Yari. The handle is nice and the grinds decent. The heat treat on mine is solid. The Ontario knife does cut very well for its size.
Another factor is sharpening. In general 1095 is a very simple steel, and as heat treated by Ontario is run a couple points softer than the D2. So if ease of sharpening is important, or you may need to sharpen the knife with field expeidient equipment (sand on a leather belt, smooth river rock, etc) the 1095 version would probably be a better choice. If you have diamond or ceramic sharepening stones, and don't think you will need to sharpen in the field, the D2 is in the running, weighed against your other factors of course.
Another determintation you need to make is how hard do you plan on using the knife. For fairly moderate work the Ontario should be fine.
However, if I was looking for a hard use knife, i.e. lots of chopping in hard seasoned wood, splitting knotty wood, prying then the Ranger Knives line would be my first choice. For my uses, the longer 9" model is better. Not because I need any more chopping power, but because the longer blade makes it much easier to split wood with and gives greater reach when lopping limbs off down trees.
The Ranger Knives use 5160 at ~58RC, which should be more impact resistant than the steels offered in the Ontario line, and his quality control seems excellent. Of the reviews and posts I have seen, Justin's heat treat seems to be very consistent.
As well, the Ranger knives are ground thicker (the Ontario knives are ~.030" whereas the Ranger is .050") while it sounds like a small degree of difference, the actual strength gain is quite large, so the Ranger knife are better suited for real hard use. If you want to increase cutting performance, you can of course thin the edge out.
That is just my opinion based on my use and observations. Your use and preferences may be different, so try to handle a variety of knives and see which fits your hand the best, figure out waht you will be using the knife for and go from there. Hope that helps,
KT
Image borrowed from Sage Creek Outfitters as referenced above.
As for the Rat7:
With the same knife being offered in 1095, you have to consider what you are going to do with the knife, examine the material properties of each steel and decide which is better suited for your needs.
If you want a decent degree of rust resistance, cut a lot of abbrasive materials like cardboard, carpet, skinning game, cut lots of rope, etc, and do not use your knives for impact intensive chores, like chopping hard woods, splitting wood with knots, etc, then the D2 version would probably be a good choice. I have not used the D2 version and can offer no real opinion on the heat treat. You may want to search this forum and others to see if their have been any complaints about Ontario's D2 heat treat. IF there has been, you should take that into consideration, but also take into consideration that if there is a problem Ontario has been very good about replacing defective knives based on the numerous reports on this and other forums.
If you are going to be using the knife for hard use tasks, such as the chopping and splitting referenced above, or any sort of prying you may want to consider the 1095 version. I have the 1095 version, and it is similiar to a large Gerber Yari. The handle is nice and the grinds decent. The heat treat on mine is solid. The Ontario knife does cut very well for its size.
Another factor is sharpening. In general 1095 is a very simple steel, and as heat treated by Ontario is run a couple points softer than the D2. So if ease of sharpening is important, or you may need to sharpen the knife with field expeidient equipment (sand on a leather belt, smooth river rock, etc) the 1095 version would probably be a better choice. If you have diamond or ceramic sharepening stones, and don't think you will need to sharpen in the field, the D2 is in the running, weighed against your other factors of course.
Another determintation you need to make is how hard do you plan on using the knife. For fairly moderate work the Ontario should be fine.
However, if I was looking for a hard use knife, i.e. lots of chopping in hard seasoned wood, splitting knotty wood, prying then the Ranger Knives line would be my first choice. For my uses, the longer 9" model is better. Not because I need any more chopping power, but because the longer blade makes it much easier to split wood with and gives greater reach when lopping limbs off down trees.
The Ranger Knives use 5160 at ~58RC, which should be more impact resistant than the steels offered in the Ontario line, and his quality control seems excellent. Of the reviews and posts I have seen, Justin's heat treat seems to be very consistent.
As well, the Ranger knives are ground thicker (the Ontario knives are ~.030" whereas the Ranger is .050") while it sounds like a small degree of difference, the actual strength gain is quite large, so the Ranger knife are better suited for real hard use. If you want to increase cutting performance, you can of course thin the edge out.
That is just my opinion based on my use and observations. Your use and preferences may be different, so try to handle a variety of knives and see which fits your hand the best, figure out waht you will be using the knife for and go from there. Hope that helps,
KT
First of all thank you for the great reply! I guess I should have mentioned what I have in mind for this thing
Duh. Mostly as a firewood getter
4-5 deadfall and all the other nasty stuff a person might want to crop down with a big whacker like this. I see this as part of a combination leave in the trunk of the car/take with when hiking in the woods/jump bag/one size fits all sort of survival back pack. Probably in an ALICE bag that I already own since it isnt really doing anything else at the moment. I have a small light-weight hatchet & a Swiss Army Deluxe SOS KIT that I plan to include & I hope to pick up a folding saw at some point. Ill leave the first aid, fire, tarp, paracord etc. for another discussion. My original thinking was toward a bigger knife
Battle Mistress size give or take. While Id love to have a BM/Basic 9/Battle Rat etc. theyre just not in the budget right now
maybe someday. Ive never owned a RTAK but I got hold of one at a show a couple years back & that had to be the worst handle Ive ever felt. I see why you folks talk about grinding on those grips. I wondered about the Fallkniven A2 Wilderness Knife because of the laminated steel but its more dough than the Battle Rat. Someone brought up the Camp Tramp as being a great chopper over on a discussion about the Becker Brute which got me to thinking about Steel Heart sized blades & the D2 version of the Randal Training Knife seemed like a good idea. Saving a little weight in this bag would be a good thing & a couple less inches of knife might be OK. Ive never heard of the RD7
looks like it might be a better choice. If I have to use any of this to save my or someone elses hide I dont need an equipment failure. Hard to survive with a busted knife! This is why I love this discussion board
folks sharing real experience & testing of this stuff, saving the rest of us the expense and grief. What do other folks suggest including as part of such a kit?
Thanks for the help!
Hamp
Thanks for the help!
Hamp
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
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You are very welcome.
If price is a concern, I think the Ranger Line is actually less expensive than a D2 Rat, but you would have to check prices for that.
I would suggest you buy a folding saw straight away. Theya re cheap, get the sawvivor for ~$30. Or, just add a Bow saw to your trunk, you can get one for under $10 at Home Despot. As a I probably write too often fro a knife forum, a saw is really an essential piece of kit for me.
Another important piece of kit is a pot. Again, not very sexy, but gets used so much and for so many things I can't imagine going in the woods without one.
One word of adviser, if you are married, do not take any of your wife's pots without her permission, ask her which one she would not mind throwing away. If you take her Calphalon sauce pan and scratch up the non-stick stuff, she is gonna be mad. Care to guess how I know that one?
If price is a concern, I think the Ranger Line is actually less expensive than a D2 Rat, but you would have to check prices for that.
I would suggest you buy a folding saw straight away. Theya re cheap, get the sawvivor for ~$30. Or, just add a Bow saw to your trunk, you can get one for under $10 at Home Despot. As a I probably write too often fro a knife forum, a saw is really an essential piece of kit for me.
Another important piece of kit is a pot. Again, not very sexy, but gets used so much and for so many things I can't imagine going in the woods without one.
One word of adviser, if you are married, do not take any of your wife's pots without her permission, ask her which one she would not mind throwing away. If you take her Calphalon sauce pan and scratch up the non-stick stuff, she is gonna be mad. Care to guess how I know that one?
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I'm with Knifetester on Ranger Knives RD7. Justin, as tknife said bought the 5160 Steel Heart blanks from Jerry. I purchased two, finished them and had Justin heat treat them. They are great hard use knives and Justin does a great job with them. Here's a pic of the one I did.
Scott
Scott
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Unfortunately no. I got that one, 7 1/2" and a 6 1/2" to make large knives for myself. I did come up with my own version based on that design only different so I didn't copy a Busse design. Here's a pic of the one I make.
Scott
Scott
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Subject to an expert showing up, seems to me that D-2 is not the optimal choice for an impact tool. 5160 should be better.
Re the orange G-10 handled knives that Justin is making: is the word that they were made on 5160 Steel Heart blanks?
Re the orange G-10 handled knives that Justin is making: is the word that they were made on 5160 Steel Heart blanks?
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Thomas you are correct in saying that D2 is not a good choice for an impact tool. The knives that Justin makes are indeed 5160 steel blanks that Jerry used during his apprentice knifemaking program. He no longer needed them so that's when he offered them for sale. The first pic is one of the blanks I purchased from Justin who bought all 700 blanks from Jerry. Justin offered a limited amount of the blanks for sale to individuals and kept the rest for himself to make the Ranger series of knives. My second pic is also made from 1/4" thick 5160 which I use to make my large survival/camp knives. 5160 is one of the best for impact chopping and splitting. It's a very forgiving steel.
Scott
Scott
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I am not an expert by any means, but I agree with you 100%.
D2 is an excellent steel for a light cutting blade due to its excellent wear resistance,and its ability to attain relatively high hardness while being tougher than most "high-end" stainless steels at the same hardness. This higher hardness directly translates in higher strength, or ability to resist deformation. Thus you can grind a thinner edge before edge roll becomes an issue under light to moderate use.
However, for a hard use impact tool, a simple carbon (1084, 1095, 52100, etc.), spring (5160), saw (L6, 15n20) or tool steel (A8) is superior in my mind. An impact tool does not really benefit from wear resistance, which is D2's strong suit. In fact, to the extent that high wear resistance directly results in a knife being harder to sharpen (since sharpening really is controlled wear, with an added element of correcting alignment) it is actually counter productive.
Compared to a spring steel like 5160, D2 is brittle. It is only tough compared to the very brittle stainless steels. Of course, that is all subject to proper heat treatment.
For a pocket knife or small, light use fixed blade, thinly ground D2 is a great choice for me. In a knife that may be subect to hard impacts and lateral stress it is not a steel I would personally consider.
Perhaps Ontario has developed a heat treat protocol which makes D2 much tougher, but I rather doubt it.
Some custom makers, like Walter Brend and Bob Dozier may be able heat treat D2 to a suitable level for moderate hard use (though I don't know that first hand, jsut going off reports from others), but I can't imagine a D2 heat treat which would allow it to be as impact resistant as 5160, that is just not what the steel was designed for.
In addition to chipping (which can be sharpened out) and major blow outs, what I would worry about with D2 in a hard use knife is stress fractures propogating in the steel, then when a bit of lateral pressure is applied gross failure.
So the real answer is to consider how you will potentially use the knife, and find the steel with the properties that best match your use. Joe Talmadge wrote and excellent Steel FAQ, I would really recommend you read it.
It is important that you do this anaysis for yourself, factoring in your specific needs. I would be very hesistant about letting a production company make that choce for me, as they will often use a "premium steel" as a means to increase sales where a simpler steel would actually perform better for the tasks you will perform with it.
There are no good or bad steels, they all just have different properties, and you should take advantage of those properties to maximize the performance of you knife.
Just my layman's opinion of course. . . .
KT
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Very well said KT. I've used my 5160 knife in above pic quite a bit chopping and splitting wood and it's awesome. This is my top pick steel for hard use wilderness applications.
Scott
Scott
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Well, I have one of Jason's 9" orange-handled models on the way.
Did you know Jason has been deployed to Iraq? Found out when I Googled him and found his forum at the other place.
Did you know Jason has been deployed to Iraq? Found out when I Googled him and found his forum at the other place.
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Yes, Justin is back in the Sand Box defending our freedom. I think he still has occasional net access. While a custom is obviously out right now, Sage Creek and BQ carry his standard line.
Scott,
The knives you posted above look very functional. I also like this model you make:
I am sure as a knifemaker who works in 5160 that you of all people know its abilities.
How do you heat treat your 5160? When you R&D knives, how extreme can you take 5160 before seeing functional failure?
Scott,
The knives you posted above look very functional. I also like this model you make:
I am sure as a knifemaker who works in 5160 that you of all people know its abilities.
How do you heat treat your 5160? When you R&D knives, how extreme can you take 5160 before seeing functional failure?
I just got off the phone with the folks at Sage Creek Outfitters. Thanks for putting me on to them! Come to find out all the 9 Orange Handle Satins are sold out until we can get Justin back here in the States & chained to his grinder. They still have a few of the 6 & 7 orange versions. I had my little heart set on a 9 when they told me they received a shipment yesterday that included one 7 with OD green handles
apparently one of a kind. Sorry guys but I snagged it! It should be here in a few days. Sounds like the 9 versions are the most popular and the do have a few black blade w/ black or tan handles left. Again thanks for the help here
I started out wanting a Steel Heart sized knife & you folks put me on to what is essentially a straight handled version of exactly that from Justin for about $85.00 shipped! Now Im saving my ramen noodle money for a 9. If anybody wants to take a look at these theyre at http://www.sagecreekoutfitters.com/
Thanks!
Hamp
Thanks!
Hamp
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They have pretty good prices on several other items I looked at. Shop and compare.
I got the last 9" (Thanks for the information!) They said on their site that Jason made "two sets" of the satin orange G10's. I presume that means only two of each size. If the quality is as reported, this is a great deal.
I got the last 9" (Thanks for the information!) They said on their site that Jason made "two sets" of the satin orange G10's. I presume that means only two of each size. If the quality is as reported, this is a great deal.
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Thank you for the compliment KT. I, at present send my blades out for heat treat. It is the most cost effective way for me right now. Justin has been heat treating my 5160 blades. Since he is in the sand box, I will be going to a knifemaker friends shop to heat treat my 5160 blades. Put them in the gas forge, heat to non magnetic then edge quench. I temper with a propane torch. I personally have never pushed the 5160 blade to a far extreme. Mainly bumming in the woods and trail hiking with friends. But what I have done I'm impressed. I don't have alot of time between work and making knives to get out the way I'd like to. The knife above is a D2 knife that is in the hands of one of our soldiers in Afganistan.knifetester said:Yes, Justin is back in the Sand Box defending our freedom. I think he still has occasional net access. While a custom is obviously out right now, Sage Creek and BQ carry his standard line.
Scott,
The knives you posted above look very functional. I also like this model you make:
I am sure as a knifemaker who works in 5160 that you of all people know its abilities.
How do you heat treat your 5160? When you R&D knives, how extreme can you take 5160 before seeing functional failure?
Scott
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2004
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- 9,438
Here are pics of the Busse blank 5160 splitting seasoned wood while on the Appalation trail in PA.
Scott
Scott