Anyone else getting burned out on framelocks?

[Tripton]

Calm down there ladies. Last time I checked, I stated my opinion. As a matter of FACT all my posts on here are inherently my opinion. Who woulda thought!

I'm pretty sure that milk comes from bees.


Just my opinion.

 

[B.F.U]

Someone please educate me:

I don't see how people consider the average frame lock to be stronger than the average liner lock. I have broken or hurt a few knives, and the lock always bends. From what I see, the average frame locks cut out section is thinner than the average liner lock. It seems that would make them more likely to bend. I understand that the cut out is at the bottom, but does that really preserve the strength?

 

[jbmonkey]

Someone please educate me:

I don't see how people consider the average frame lock to be stronger than the average liner lock. I have broken or hurt a few knives, and the lock always bends. From what I see, the average frame locks cut out section is thinner than the average liner lock. It seems that would make them more likely to bend. I understand that the cut out is at the bottom, but does that really preserve the strength?

Lots of opinions. Facts are in there somewhere....but I haven't seen testing to prove this theory many hold that a properly made frame lock is stronger/safer than a properly made liner lock. Maybe some one has this testing data and will share with us? Til then it's just opinions we get.

 

[B.F.U]

Lots of opinions. Facts are in there somewhere....but I haven't seen testing to prove this theory many hold that a properly made frame lock is stronger/safer than a properly made liner lock. Maybe some one has this testing data and will share with us? Til then it's just opinions we get.

I would be very interested in that.

 

[TheModernNeanderthal]

I think of the frame lock as generally being stronger in terms of sheer resistance to force. The liner lock is one uniform thickness throughout, it has the whole liner to flex and fail. A frame lock, if it is going to fail will only fail in the cutout where there is a shorter length.

I'm not talking about slipping just pure flex strength.

And just how I think

 

[blame it on god]

I bolded the only legitimate sentence in this post - the rest is some combination of opinion & speculation worded as fact.

Am I the only member on this forum who hasn't experienced lock failure? Some of you are so quick to go around judging this lock and that lock as well as inform us which ones are 'better' or 'safer' than others. They are ALL good designs and usually when one fails they're either being abused, put through some illogical 'test' or filling in for the job of a fixed blade.

No, you're not the only one. I've never had a lock fail on me. But I use knives to cut things. (Which puts no pressure on the lock)

I still use SAK and good old stockmans and still have all ten fingers.

 

[gooeytek]

I think of the frame lock as generally being stronger in terms of sheer resistance to force. The liner lock is one uniform thickness throughout, it has the whole liner to flex and fail. A frame lock, if it is going to fail will only fail in the cutout where there is a shorter length.

I'm not talking about slipping just pure flex strength.

And just how I think

All the same, it all boils down to proper design. Some framelocks have very thin cutouts, some thick linerlocks have cutouts as well (Gayle Bradley). Linerlocks however, have scales that will help to keep the lockbar from flexing outward in the event of a failure. That said though, I've never had a linerlock nor framelock fail on me.

 

[jac_solar]

I found this quite interesting -- some opinions, some possible facts, etc:

Posted by oakengroves at the Benchmade Knife Community Forums http://benchmadeforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/356008908001/m/376004358001:

Thanks, again, to all the great folks at Benchmade for going above and beyond our expectations for customer service by this year's online outreach efforts, including these amazing tests. These tests really go to show the strength and quality of Benchmade knives, and give vocal Benchmade supporters objective, strong evidence of quality!

After watching all the videos, I wanted to assemble the data in one place so we can compare the lock strength of the various models tested. Of axis lock models, the axis lock itself was not the source of failure, underscoring the ridiculous strength of the locking mechanism itself.

Lock Strength Data Compilation

1. BM 275 Adamas (7.7 oz) - 1717 lbs of torque (aka: 858 pounds could be hung from 2" away from pivot) [incredible, 2x stronger than any other BM knife tested];

2. BM 520 Presidio (5.6 oz) - 983 lbs of torque (491 pounds at 2" from pivot) [compare: full liners vs. grip partial liners];

3. BM 916 Triage (5.101 oz) - 863 lbs of torque (431 pounds at 2" from pivot)

4. BM 556 Griptilian (3.82 oz) - 763 lbs of torque (381 pounds at 2" from pivot);

5. BM 940 (2.9 oz) - 698 lbs of torque (349 pounds at 2" from pivot);

6. BM 300 Flipper (4.8 oz) - 615 lbs of torque (307 pounds at 2" from pivot).

7. BM 755 Sibert (5.5 oz) - 519 lbs of torque (259 pounds at 2" from pivot);

8. BM 910 (3.8 oz) - 156 lbs of torque (78 pounds at 2" from pivot) [liner lock].

Interesting post by kwackster here at Bladeforums, pointing out the possibility of making a thicker frame lock relief, by broadening it over a larger area http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/619899-Frame-lock-or-liner-lock-strength

@ Cotherion;

You're not the only one thinking about possible improvements on framelocks, Strider for instance already does what you are describing, by broadening the relief as much as possible.

But there is another concept that got my attention, and that's the way it's done on the older Benchmade Pinnacle, not by thinning down the relief, but by hollowing the lockbar out from the inside.
This effectively creates a u-shape which, in my opinion, should withstand buckling forces better than the standard lockbar reliefs which have been thinned down from the outside or inside.

Take a look at the last picture;

Article on how to test the lock on your folder at A.G Russel: http://www.agrussell.com/Articles/a/107/

well-made liner lock is a beautiful thing. The action is smooth, the lock is very strong, and it can be opened and closed one-handed. However, it is easy for the knifemaker to make a mistake on a liner lock. Many common mistakes can result in the lock accidentally unlocking, and this is a serious threat to fingers. Below are some of the tests we recommend a potential buyer try on a liner lock. Keep in mind that many of the factory knives easily pass all the tests below, while many knives from custom makers -- including those lauded in the knife rags -- often don't pass. Test your knives, don't assume the more expensive knife has the more secure lock-up!

One caveat is that the second of A.T.'s suggestions, the "palm-on-spine" and "whack-the-spine" tests, are a bit controversial. We both feel that a blade should never close due to palm pressure, and a moderate whack on the spine shouldn't make a blade fold up either. Some makers say that a knife in normal use does not ever get whacked on the spine, so this test is not real-world. You can decide for yourself how secure you think the lock should be.

A.T. Barr's Tests:

You don't want your blade to open except when you want it to. Always check for a good detent ball to blade tang contact. Open your liner lock normally and then close it very slowly. The blade *should* snap closed the last 1/16" or so.
Open your knife blade very slowly, until the lock engages. Do not snap it open. You want the tension of the liner lock to just snap to the tang of the knife. Then do two things. First turn the knife over, and using the palm of your hand try to close the blade. It should not close. Then strike the blade spine on the table. Not real hard, but it needs some pressure. It should not close.
Snap the blade open REAL FAST, then close it. If it takes a lot of pressure to unlock the blade, walk away from that knife.
Open the knife blade real slow, and check for any movement. Sideways or up & down.
Great tip: Also, if your liner lock has a sloppy lock-up, sometimes you can help it by snapping the blade open and then half-way hard striking the blade (try to close it) on it's tang. That will help seat the Titanium liner to the tang of the blade. If that does not work, send it back to the maker. Be careful when you do this. If the blade does disengage, the blade will hit your knuckle. A number of rec.knife readers have reported good results using this tip.

Joe Talmadge's Tests:
Open knife, then thumb the lock aside (blade is still open). Wiggle the knife back and forth. If the blade has *any* play at all, that's a bad sign. It might just be that the pivot is too loose, so tighten the pivot until there is no more side-to-side play, and then make sure the action is still acceptable. Sometimes a knifemaker will have a bad action, and then make it appear smoother by loosening the pivot too much.

On top of that, I do the "white knuckle" test, which many makers also fail. Making believe I'm under stress, I grab the knife in a very firm grip, letting the flesh of my fingers sink in and around the liner to whatever extent this happens. Now the question is: will small movements unlock the lock (if a small movement moves the lock AT ALL, assume it can unlock it)? If the lock is too loose or too high relative to the handle scales, a knife that passes the other tests might fail this. I made an expensive folder from a well-known maker fail this way. I sent it back to him and he fixed it to my satisfaction. That is why I like the AFCK-style handles that do not give easy access to the lock via a cut-out -- I'd rather it be a little harder to unlock than to unlock accidentally under weird conditions.

Bob Kaspar recommended a torque test as well, which is a test many liner locks fail. You want to open the blade and then torque it while applying pressure against the spine. The lock should not fail simply because the blade is being torqued a bit. I do this test by sticking the blade through something hard, a few layers of strong cardboard or wood, and then torquing the blade while trying to shut it.

Liner Lock Design:

Liner lock knives have been around since the late 19th century. The Cattaraugus liner locking patent, 825,093 was issued on July 3, 1906. After 1923 when the patent expired, it was used by other manufacturers such as in the common military and lineman's issue two-blade electrician’s knife; the Camillus TL-29 for the locking screwdriver-stripper blade, until 2007 when the Camillus Cutlery Company went out of business.[1]

Liner lock mechanisms are most commonly composed of titanium alloy or steel.[8] The liner lock's locking side liner is split from the top toward the bottom, similar to an automotive leaf spring (also called a lock bar) that butts up against the tang of the blade to prevent the blade from closing.[9] In an interview with Blade in 1988, Walker stated, “This long leaf-spring effect cuts down on stress on the locking mechanism".[9] As the lock on the original electrician's knife was mostly to hold a screwdriver blade open (the knife blade, itself was secured by a slip joint methos), Walker's refinements prevented the knife blade from closing on the user's hand and converted it into a true lock.[8][10]

There are a number of other variations on the liner lock or locking liner, depending on the knife manufacturer. One example would be the frame lock, sometimes called the Reeve Integral Lock and used on the Sebenza. With the "frame lock," the frame rather than the liner acts like the leaf spring/lock bar. Another variation, known as the inset liner lock has the leaf spring embedded into the plastic scales of the handle, technically forgoing a metal liner. Kershaw Knives uses "a pin-and-dimple lock" on a knife designed by custom knifemaker RJ Martin called the "Nerve" to keep the blade closed.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liner_lock

Liner Lock design Tutorial: http://www.rayrogers.com/ftutorial.htm

Axis Lock design:

Frame lock (Essentially a different take on the liner lock design.)

Post by Peter R on Bladeforums, WIP of his work:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...framelock-quot-wip!!-(finished-pics!!!)/page9

Titanium Frame lock reviews:

http://bladereviews.com/titanium-frame-lock-knives/

From Cold Steel, regarding the Tri-Ad Lock

http://www.coldsteel.com/Tri-Ad-Lock.aspx

Undoubtedly, Cold Steel makes the safest, strongest folders on the planet. It's one of many qualities that separates Cold Steel from our competitors.
Our latest improvement is our patent-pending Tri-Ad™ lock. Andrew Demko is the originator of the Tri-Ad's™ novel locking mechanism. It's a successor to a patented lock design originally created by the very talented John PerMar.
The "Stop Pin"...
The cornerstone of the Tri-Ad's™ strength, among other subtle refinements, is the inclusion of a new "stop pin" which re-distributes the load of vertical positive and negative pressures on the lock.
The stop pin receives all positive pressure (pressure on the cutting edge) and transfers it into the handle frame and liners where it can be more effectively absorbed.

 

[NetshadeX]

I have many quality liner- and framelock knives in my collection but other than the smooth opening I generally don't like the concept of either. As a concept it's flawed as it's function, by default, puts stress on the construction of the knife

They've been hit and miss with me with sticky lockbars and generally inconsistant lock up. For instance when I open my zt 0300 the lock up is at about 30%. Just by putting slight pressure on the lock up it moves to about 50% and the lockbar get's sticky. In many of my knives, spyderco, CRKT etc, the speed of flicking open the knife determines how early or late it will lock up. The fact that slightly loosening the screws and slightly shifting the plates directly influences your lock up shows how precise and prone to mess up the concept is.

Like others have mentioned, the Tri-Ad lock is the only lock I fully trust. Granted most Cold Steel knives lack the fondle factor of some of the "higher end" knives but the honest truth is that none of those elite folders can hold a candle to Cold Steel constructional strength.

 

[jbmonkey]

Thanks jac solar for sharing. Good amount of info...appreciated.

Netshadex......The tri ad lock is a personal favorite have more than a few cold steels.....only problem with it is its cold steel or demko custom. Not allot of choices for such a great lock design.

 

[SteelStickler]

I'm a huge fan of the ceramic ball interface on the CRK Umnumzaan, and have found it to be the most functionally well-designed framelock I've ever encountered. Cheers.

 

[Dashen]

I don't like frame locks at all because I feel it messes with the ergonomics of the folder. If I can't have an axis lock, I will go for a liner lock. Sure it supposedly doesn't have the retention of a frame lock, but I have never had an issue on a good blade before.

 

[david childers]

Framelocks are fine if they're done right. The same can be said of any locking mechanism IMO. I look more at fit and finish, blade steel, blade centering etc.. The type of lock is not a deal breaker for me. I like a good liner lock or compression lock just as well if the lockup is good and it's easy to disengage. Frame locks are still the trend right now along with flippers. It will be interesting to see how long this trend continues and what might replace it.

 

[Goosey]

I'm not a huge fan of frame locks... wish there were more higher-end lock backs that weren't either old-fashioned or from Spyderco.

 

[NetshadeX]

Wish there were more higher-end lock backs that weren't either old-fashioned or from Spyderco.

I don't know if it's technically possible but an assisted opener with a tri-ad or back lock design would be perfect. The only thing unattractive about backlocks is the resistance when opening it.

 

[ToddM]

Those listed tests from A.T., Joe, and Bob are great. A.T.'s test is a minimum for me to keep a knife and as of late I've added Joe's in as well. I suspect a lot of people would not be as impressed with their knives if they performed all of these tests. It seems people have become convinced that a light spine tap is abuse, torque should never be applied, some blade/lock play is fine, and a sticky lock bar or one that's easily pushed to full lockup is no big deal. How that happened I'm not sure but it's definitely let the quality control bar drop it would seem.

I ran a bunch of old folders (BM 975, stryker, EDI genesis, Sebenza, CRKT M16s, Emerson Commander, MT Socom, etc. mostly liner locks) and every one passed those tests. I'd say if there's any issue it's that if snapped open hard a couple had lock stick. I don't snap my knives open so that's not a concern for me.

If I go through purchases over the last couple years it's not a very good showing. There are plenty more that failed and were never purchased.

Spyderco's PM2, Manix 2, solid no issues.

CRK Umnumzaan, solid no issues.

Hogue EX-01, solid no issues.

ZT 0551, solid no issues.

ZT 0777M390, solid no issues.

BM's Axis lock (Rift/Contigo/Ritter) secure lockup but slight play when pressured (nature of the axis lock interface). Contigo's blade retention was unacceptable, sent to BM and returned the same way, shelf queen until I fix it.

ZT 0561 blade retention way too weak, detent not engaging hole, returned and fixed by ZT.

BM 760 secure lockup, very slight play if pressured, blade retention unacceptable, sent to BM and returned the same, shelf queen till I fix it.

ZT 560cbcf secure lockup, but has very very slight play if pressured, might just be the pivot bearings shifting, non issue.

Strider SMF Secure lockup, lock is a bit sticky if flipped open hard, non issue.

Microtech Delta, total lock failure just with spine pressure not impact, worst lockup I've ever tested, currently at MT.

Spartan Akribis blade/pivot play, sent back to factory and fixed and returned in less than 2 weeks!.

By "play if pressured" I open the knife, grab the blade solidly with a gloved hand and try to "rock" the handle in various directions under moderate pressure, if I feel movement, it's noted as such, slight movement I don't mind if it passes all other tests, if I feel the lockbar itself slip/move it's unacceptable.

I could just have really bad luck, or I'm too picky, it doesn't make me swear off liner/frame locks, but these days it has to be a knife I really want or I'll stay with the Axis/Compression/Bearing/Tri-Ad etc. that seem to have less issues, hopefully companies start using more of these new improved locks as well. I just see no advantage the liner/frame lock aside that if done properly it's a testament to the makers skill, but far too many seem to be unable to do so consistently.