Are bad slicers *really* bad slicers?

[Gaston444]

Interesting discussion. I really fail to see how much useful the hollow grind can be other than when all you need is very shallow cutting such that only a small portion of the blade needs to get into the material being cut, such as not-very-thick ropes. For other tasks like cutting fruits, veggies, and cardboards, hollow grind is significantly inferior to FFG.

Depends how tall the saber portion is. If the hollow grind is full height, then it should in theory, outperform the flat grind.

Discussion on slicing performance, and so far only one post out 38 mentions edge thickness: Absolutely amazing...

I generally consider hollow grinds to be sharper and more useful than full flat grinds, especially over the long haul of multiple field re-profilings, but this advantage is often ruined by makers having the edge bevel 0.040" thick on a large fixed blade (this is almost standard in fact): A large chopper should be around 0.020" in edge thickness. Randall does this correctly out of the box, but few others do.

The current standard for slicing performance out of the box is a 20 dps edge, often much more(!). A forty degree wedge... Even on folders(!)... Combine that with a 0.040" edge (Busse often 0.060" and 30 dps) and you have essentially something that can have the blade used as a handle in perfect safety...

Unless you fix the edge thickness, 0.050" or thicker edges will never be good at slicing, no matter what you do.

0.040" will always be marginal. 0.030" is the bare minimum of acceptable slicing performance.

Hollow grind are inherently better slicers for several reasons: 1-They require less material to be removed when re-profiling, 2-they make doing this easier without scratching the sides, because the sides curve away from the sharpener, 3-the edge does not thicken as it wears upwards (for greater sharpness over the long haul: Flat grind geometry inevitably deteriorates -the edge grows thicker- from each sharpening, hollow grind edges stay the same thickness as wear goes up), 4-the blade is inherently heavier for a given stock, and, finally, my favourite advantage: 5-The presence of a flat saber grind surface means the blade "rides" on a guided surface (the "flats"), which not only protects the edge from contact with the sheath better (thus keeping fine sharpness better), but also the "flats" keep sheath scratches from invading the whole surface of the knife, or from damaging the edge, since the they make the edge "float" in mid-air inside the sheath.

In practice, on big chopping knives, the Full Flat Grind is inherently lighter than a saber hollow grind, yet performs the same while chopping with less weight. This kind of deep FFG biting (per ounce) is often reduced by the insistence to use a convex edge, or a full height convex grind (in an attempt to imitate the "splitting action" of axes): This "fattening" curve to the sides considerably increases the deceleration discomfort on the hand, when compared to flat sided surfaces.

Gaston

 

[silverds]

Dear lord. So many words, so much condescension, so much techno-babble devoid of common sense.

Depends how tall the saber portion is. If the hollow grind is full height, then it should in theory, outperform the flat grind.

There's a reason wheel chair ramps have a consistent grade and aren't concave.

Discussion on slicing performance, and so far only one post out 38 mentions edge thickness: Absolutely amazing...

The fact that most kitchen knives have been slicing for years without being sharpened and that you can slice quite a surprising range of organic material with unsharpened wire discredits your insistence of the critical importance of anything related to the edge. Magically perhaps, you can actually cut a lot of things with the edge of a fork.

Hollow grind are inherently better slicers for several reasons:
1-They require less material to be removed when re-profiling

How much material removed from the blade when re-profiling has nothing to do with slicing unless you are slicing material off the blade.

2-they make doing this easier without scratching the sides, because the sides curve away from the sharpener

You seem to be having difficulty with the difference between slicing and sharpening

3-the edge does not thicken as it wears upwards (for greater sharpness over the long haul: Flat grind geometry inevitably deteriorates -the edge grows thicker- from each sharpening, hollow grind edges stay the same thickness as wear goes up)

You're combining the edge and secondary bevels into a single thing but whatever I still see how you're wrong. If you sharpen a knife at the same exact angle every day 5 times a day until there is no blade left to sharpen, your secondary bevel will never ever get thicker, it will just get taller until your secondary bevel and your primary grind become one and the same, and if you keep sharpening, guess what happens...

That's right just shout the answer when you know; The secondary bevel which is now the entire blade, actually gets thinner.

4-the blade is inherently heavier for a given stock

WTF does the weight of the blade have to do with slicing unless you are somehow relying entirely on gravity to do the slicing and, finally, my favourite nonsense:

5-The presence of a flat saber grind surface means the blade "rides" on a guided surface (the "flats"), which not only protects the edge from contact with the sheath better (thus keeping fine sharpness better), but also the "flats" keep sheath scratches from invading the whole surface of the knife, or from damaging the edge, since the they make the edge "float" in mid-air inside the sheath.

I'm not even going to try to make sense of this gibberish but WTF does the comfort of the blade in a sheath have to do with slicing. Dear god there's more...

In practice, on big chopping knives, the Full Flat Grind is inherently lighter than a saber hollow grind, yet performs the same while chopping with less weight. This kind of deep FFG biting (per ounce) is often reduced by the insistence to use a convex edge, or a full height convex grind (in an attempt to imitate the "splitting action" of axes): This "fattening" curve to the sides considerably increases the deceleration discomfort on the hand, when compared to flat sided surfaces.

Axes? Chopping? Splitting? Weight?

I have observed many posts from other members advising to block or simply ignore you. I thought they were simply trolling you for no reason, but now I can see why their advice is justified. I apologize to everyone who might feel that this response is an overreaction but there is entirely too much condescension and nonsense in Gaston444's post to ignore and not address.

 

[Mo2]

Ignore Gaston. Don't go full retard.

Here's a video that explains in more detail for novice too. This is just the edge but the other bevels matter also when slicing something like cardboard. Thickness behind the edge. I'll see if I can't find another video about that.

Edit more

The guy do not mention different steel types that can handle thinner behind the edge but you get the jist. Also I don't condone his use of clones.

 

[silverds]

I'm not exactly sure how a slicing question related to blade thickness became a sharpening discussion related to edge geometry, but I'm not a rocket scientist so maybe I just can't keep up.

Any blade, who's primary grind becomes thicker at ant point than a scalpel, is a worse slicer than a scalpel, even if it's a dull scalpel, and regardless of the type of primary grind.

A Medford Praetorian with the hardest, sharpest, toughest, most durable edge that man has ever produced, so sharp, it can split atoms, will not slice better than a box cutter from Walmart.

If this can be disputed with any logical reason, I may have accidentally stepped into the wrong universe.

Of course, we'd all have to agree on what exactly it means "to slice".

 

[palonej]

Ummmmmm Sil??? I hate using this phrase......but not so much in this case.......WE TOLD YOU!!!!!
Sorry my friend, couldn’t resist!

Joe

Dear lord. So many words, so much condescension, so much techno-babble devoid of common sense.



There's a reason wheel chair ramps have a consistent grade and aren't concave.



The fact that most kitchen knives have been slicing for years without being sharpened and that you can slice quite a surprising range of organic material with unsharpened wire discredits your insistence of the critical importance of anything related to the edge. Magically perhaps, you can actually cut a lot of things with the edge of a fork.



How much material removed from the blade when re-profiling has nothing to do with slicing unless you are slicing material off the blade.



You seem to be having difficulty with the difference between slicing and sharpening



You're combining the edge and secondary bevels into a single thing but whatever I still see how you're wrong. If you sharpen a knife at the same exact angle every day 5 times a day until there is no blade left to sharpen, your secondary bevel will never ever get thicker, it will just get taller until your secondary bevel and your primary grind become one and the same, and if you keep sharpening, guess what happens, that's right just shout the answer when you know, the secondary bevel which is now the entire blade, actually gets thinner.



WTF does the weight of the blade have to do with slicing unless you are somehow relying entirely on gravity to do the slicing and, finally, my favourite nonsense:



I'm not even going to try to make sense of this gibberish but WTF does the comfort of the blade in a sheath have to do with slicing. Dear god there's more...



Axes? Chopping? Splitting? Weight?

I have observed many posts from other members advising to block or simply ignore you. I thought they were simply trolling you for no reason, but now I can see why their advice is justified. I apologize to everyone who might feel that this response is an overreaction but there is entirely too much condescension and nonsense in Gaston444's post to ignore and not address.

 

[halden.doerge]

[PSA]To any new readers, despite what G-bag has suggested above, it is not actually recommended that you use a knife blade as a handle.

It's not actually safe.

Don't do it.[\PSA]

 

[silverds]

Sorry guys I thought I saw the horse twitch

Perhaps the best thought experiment, I can think of, to prove the greater importance of blade thickness over sharpness, would be a paper cut.

To my knowledge you cannot sharpen a sheet of paper but it can surely slice the shit out of your finger, or tongue...if you swing that way.

To put my money where my mouth is I am ready to lick the edge of a postcard, if anyone dares to prove me wrong by licking the edge of sheet of xerox paper. Anyone?

Edit: Sorry Millenials, I mean printer paper.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Sorry guys I thought I saw the horse twitch

Perhaps the best thought experiment, I can think of, to prove the greater importance of blade thickness over sharpness, would be a paper cut.

To my knowledge you cannot sharpen a sheet of paper but it can surely slice the shit out of your finger, or tongue...if you swing that way.

To put my money where my mouth is I am ready to lick the edge of a postcard, if anyone dares to prove me wrong by licking the edge of sheet of xerox paper. Anyone?

Edit: Sorry Millenials, I mean printer paper.

I put a mirror finish on printer paper using nothing but a 50 grit diamond stone.

 

[Gaston444]

I'm not even going to try to make sense of this gibberish but WTF does the comfort of the blade in a sheath have to do with slicing. Dear god there's more...

.

I just picked this one quote from you because it was my favourite, and showed best your ignorance of just about everything related to knives, or at least fixed blade knives.

Having a broader saber grind means the knife rides on broader flat surfaces inside the sheath, which keeps the edge better centered within the sheath.

The broader the flat surface, the more "stable" the centering of the edge: Hence the less likely it is to rub the edge on the sides of the sheath.

This means a hollow grind (which is typically done with a broader kind of flat saber grind surface, since a hollow grind can thin down faster), will more rarely dull itself from the edge touching the sides of most non-kydex sheaths.

Less dulling from the sheath means it is a better slicer. I know you guys are obsessed with folders, and have hardly ever heard that fixed blade knives exist, but you have to get out the front door from time to time.

Gaston

 

[Pomsbz]

Less dulling from the sheath means it is a better slicer.

So is having the blade made of steel rather than cardboard but you seem to have missed out that point. Your point is about relevant as saying that a car will be faster if it has round rather than square tires.

 

[bearfacedkiller]

1) I think the flipper craze has fueled the proliferation of sharpened pry bars. Heavy blades flip better. Unfortunately they do not cut better. I guess it depends on what you want your knife to be good at, opening and closing or cutting. I am admittedly biased towards thin blades.

2) Hollow grinds do not thicken behind the edge at the same rate as flat grinds when material is removed due to sharpening. Sometimes you can sharpen a couple of millimeters into the blade without the thickness of the edge bevel shoulders changing much. That depends a bit on the height and depth of the hollow grind. That is one advantage they have.

3) Hollow grinds are thinner for maybe the first third of the blade behind the edge than a flat grind. If you measure blade thickness maybe 1/4 inch above the edge bevel shoulders the hollow grind will often measure thinner than a flat grind. Of course this all depends on the execution of the grind. For material that is not rigid and tends to move out of the way of the blade hollow grinds can seem to cut better. Skinning is a good example of this and in my experience that is the only application where they appear to perform better for me.

 

[halden.doerge]

Less dulling from the sheath means it is a better slicer. I know you guys are obsessed with folders, and have hardly ever heard that fixed blade knives exist, but you have to get out the front door from time to time.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait. Whut are these "sheaths" and "fixed" blades you speak of?

This sounds like some kinda sorcery...

 

[Twindog]

I recently purchased a Phil Wilson custom off the forums. It's an amazing slicer, with edge shoulders 0.006 inches, on a blade stock 0.1 inches with a full distal taper. Amazing slicer. A typical folding knife will have edge shoulders 0.03 inches wide on a blade stock 0.12-0.15 inches.

But the best slicer I have is made by Bluntcut out of S110V steel. It's also about 0.006 inches behind the edge, with a blade stock 0.075 inches and a full distal taper. The difference in slicing performance between Luong's knife and the knives that 99.999 percent of people use is immediately apparent. Plus, he has a heat treat process that allows him to go with super hard steel that can support these very thin edges. This knife steel is 66 Rc. If you really want to experience slicing performance, watch for one of Luong's blades.

 

[LEGION 12]

I just picked this one quote from you because it was my favourite, and showed best your ignorance of just about everything related to knives, or at least fixed blade knives.

Having a broader saber grind means the knife rides on broader flat surfaces inside the sheath, which keeps the edge better centered within the sheath.

The broader the flat surface, the more "stable" the centering of the edge: Hence the less likely it is to rub the edge on the sides of the sheath.

This means a hollow grind (which is typically done with a broader kind of flat saber grind surface, since a hollow grind can thin down faster), will more rarely dull itself from the edge touching the sides of most non-kydex sheaths.

Less dulling from the sheath means it is a better slicer. I know you guys are obsessed with folders, and have hardly ever heard that fixed blade knives exist, but you have to get out the front door from time to time.

Gaston

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Farberwa...ef-Knife-with-Self-Sharpening-Sleeve/46789596

 

[Hackenslash]

Notice how "slice" and "delica" never seem to be far away from each other around here?

Wow!

...even more incriminating: if you re-arrange the letters in the word "Delicas" you get "Da Slice"!

I think we've uncovered a conspiracy here. I bet Spyderco even knows whats going on at Area 51!

 

[Ratman79]

A lot of this boils down to personal preferences and compromise. While I am not denying that a thinly flat ground blade of approx 15 dps with maybe a 'behind the edge' thickness of .015 will be a *much* better slicer than my xm18 spanto fatty, which I have re-profiled to 18dps but still is extremely thick BTE and the blade stock is .185," I would *still* choose the fatty just because I like it

 

[Sonnydaze]

Geometry rules the board. ...and, thin is in.
My best slicer is my large Sebenza with 1/8" spine thickness and high hollow-grind. It readily beats ANY of my full flat grinds up to 0.140".
I am a believer, for casual use, in a blade-width of no greater than 3/32"...high-hollow grind...no greater than 0.010" behind the edge.
I don't care what steel you are using...within reasonable parameters. I prefer S30V or better...

 

[marcinek]

Geometry rules the board. ...and, thin is in.
My best slicer is my large Sebenza with 1/8" spine thickness and high hollow-grind. It readily beats ANY of my full flat grinds up to 0.140".
I am a believer, for casual use, in a blade-width of no greater than 3/32"...high-hollow grind...no greater than 0.010" behind the edge.
I don't care what steel you are using...within reasonable parameters. I prefer S30V or better...

Precisely. "Steel" or somebody's heat treatment of it are irrelevant. They keep a knife a slicer. Geometry makes a knife a slicer. And "thin" slices. That is not "preference."

 

[Mo2]

I recently purchased a Phil Wilson custom off the forums. It's an amazing slicer, with edge shoulders 0.006 inches, on a blade stock 0.1 inches with a full distal taper. Amazing slicer. A typical folding knife will have edge shoulders 0.03 inches wide on a blade stock 0.12-0.15 inches.

But the best slicer I have is made by Bluntcut out of S110V steel. It's also about 0.006 inches behind the edge, with a blade stock 0.075 inches and a full distal taper. The difference in slicing performance between Luong's knife and the knives that 99.999 percent of people use is immediately apparent. Plus, he has a heat treat process that allows him to go with super hard steel that can support these very thin edges. This knife steel is 66 Rc. If you really want to experience slicing performance, watch for one of Luong's blades.

Are those thinner than Opinel?

Opinel is probably the best price /performance for a slicer.

 

[Twindog]

Are those thinner than Opinel?

Opinel is probably the best price /performance for a slicer.

Opinel's blades vary in width, but they are in that neighborhood -- very thin.

Phil Wilson and Luong (Bluntcut) knives have thin blades, but they are also made of steels optimized for edge holding and heat treated to be super hard. My one Wilson knife is 10V at 64 Rc. Bluntcut's S110V blade is S110V at 66 Rc. By comparison, Opinel blades are run relatively soft at 57-59 Rc, with a 40 degree inclusive angle. I don't know what the behind-the-edge width of Opinels are.

Opinels do provide excellent value and performance for a slicer, as you say, but they are not in the same league as custom slicers from makers like Wilson and Bluntcut.