Are CPM ( Powder Steels ) More prone to chipping?

[BG42EDGE]

That would be either Idiot users or Bad Heat Treat, you pick.

Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Or idiot users?

Inquiring minds want to know your methodology in determining these facts.

If true, it would refute all complaints, so please......do tell.

 

[Ankerson]

Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Or idiot users?

Inquiring minds want to know your methodology in determining these facts.

If true, it would refute all complaints, so please......do tell.

There is always a reason why things happen.

It's always easier to pass the buck than to admit the obvious, human nature......

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Or idiot users?

Perhaps it might be more instructive to look through your incredibly high numbers and see how many of them are reports from people who you would trust to understand steel. Inquiring minds would like to know about that as well. I know where my bet is going to be placed.

I haven't had any issues with S30V chipping. Nor any other CPM steel. Then again, I treat my tools with respect. Maybe I have to baton a fridge in half with my folding knife to understand how bad of a steel S30V is?

 

[Gator97]

How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Sheesh.. If you wanna go that route, lets start with the fact that sentiment analysis is far more complicated process than you simply typing google search and saying I got n pages of results. I know that much, because I work in software development and currently one of the projects involves exactly that.
So, strictly speaking, how do you even know that those search results all confirmed chipping. Simply put, just because you got n number of hits doesn't mean anything. Did you read through each one of them? How many chipping reports were debunked, rejected or how many reported that the chipping was no longer there or was not an issue?
What is your "incredibly high number"? Relative to what?

Hmmmmm.......? Who told you that?

Exactly, who told you that the number was incredibly high, or valid or whatever?

For that matter, in a day or two, google will include your post as one more hit on S30V chipping results. In reality, it means squat, because you just repeated what others said... So, what, we conclude that S30V got that much worse?

Your magic/satan whatever deity joke repeated dozen times isn't really a joke anymore, gets boring... Don't blame on my sense of humor K?

Or maybe the knife manufacturers?

Actually, if you ever read those incredibly high number of reports, manufacturers, with the exception of Spyderco never admitted that. But I doubt you read them anyway, simply because it was incredibly high number, and after reading your posts, it's unlikely you are interested in what really happened/happens. For the record, S30V isn't my #1 choice for anything, and I am neither a knifemaker nor steel dealer, so you can exclude me from conspirators list.

 

[hardheart]

Just because the percentages are low, that doesn't mean none are formed. Low percentages can lead to low formation. What is your basis that zero form?

How was the percentage of Cr carbides arrived at?

the basis is chemistry

I suppose a guesstimation can possibly apply if only Fe, C, and Cr are the only elements present.
Add more elements to the steel's composition, and how can carbide concentration be determined without examination of the finished product? Different heat treats are also a factor to consider.

no need to suppose about guesstimations. a ternary diagram will show the exact carbide concentration for a given austenizing temperature. here is a free download of a 73 year old book if you want to know necessary weight % for carbide formation http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/Bain.Alloying/ecbain.html

The atomic mass of each element will determine carbide concentrations. Heavier elements are more stable than lighter elements. As atomic mass increases, so does the element's stability.
The carbide formers in 420 HC are V and Cr.
V has an atomic mass of 50.9415
Cr has an atomic mass of 51.9961
Since the atomic mass of V is less than that of Cr, it is less stable and bonds more readily. After the V is depleted from forming vanadium carbides, the Cr will follow. Chromium carbides will be formed until there is no more available carbon to bond with the chromium. The Cr that doesn't form carbides will remain as free chromium.

what? nuclear stability is about atomic decay, and atomic mass is specific to each isotope.

Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

there are not incredibly high numbers of S30V chipping reports. Get back to us when you have a solid number. Maybe a raw number, a percentage of production, a per capita of end users, anything.

nice how you waited until knarfeng was "out of the kitchen" before you decided to bow up

 

[Noctis3880]

Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Or idiot users?

Inquiring minds want to know your methodology in determining these facts.

If true, it would refute all complaints, so please......do tell.

If you don't like S30V, I won't attempt to change your mind. In fact, I feel it would be an exercise in futility to do so. I don't like 154CM, and I wouldn't much appreciate having the steel shoved down my throat either.

I would merely put forth that I've owned various knives in S30V from several makers(Benchmade, Kershaw, CRK, Buck, Strider), and with the possible exception of Benchmade, have been very satisfied with it.


Still, I'm curious as to why we're all so fixated with S30V when the OP wanted to know about powder steels in general. Why not comparisons with CPM-154, Elmax, M390, CTS-XHP, CTS-BD30P or all the other various powder steels available? This might sound odd, but people who hate S30V seem more obsessed with the steel than the people in love with it.

 

[hardheart]

nobody else is really even discussing S30V other than to address the squeeky wheel. I certainly don't have it high on my list. I am waiting to tr CTS-B75P to see if it can deal with the shortcomings of BG-42.

 

[Noctis3880]

nobody else is really even discussing S30V other than to address the squeeky wheel. I certainly don't have it high on my list. I am waiting to tr CTS-B75P to see if it can deal with the shortcomings of BG-42.

S30V isn't exactly my top steel either. Though having used the Chinese CrMoV series along with 12C27 and the unnamed Made in China "Ice Hardened" PoS steels from grocery stores, I look at it with renewed appreciation.

 

[Buck_110]

the basis is chemistry

Come on now. That's beyond a broad statement. That's the equivalent of stating your address is Earth. While Earth is correct, it's a bit vague.

no need to suppose about guesstimations. a ternary diagram will show the exact carbide concentration for a given austenizing temperature. here is a free download of a 73 year old book if you want to know necessary weight % for carbide formation http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/Bain.Alloying/ecbain.html

This must be huge. I can't open this without my computer hanging.

what? nuclear stability is about atomic decay, and atomic mass is specific to each isotope.

Atomic decay? Are you forming carbides with elements heavier than lead? We're not anywhere near the elements that undergo radioactive decay. The carbide forming elements here are quite stable, decay wise.

 

[Gator97]

This must be huge. I can't open this without my computer hanging.

It is a big book, but well worth reading. I still go back to it very often, not being a metallurgist, it's not something I grasped in one reading. Anyway, use save link as function instead of clicking on it.

Atomic decay? Are you forming carbides with elements heavier than lead? We're not anywhere near the elements that undergo radioactive decay. The carbide forming elements here are quite stable, decay wise.

Carbide forming elements are stable, yes. You mentioned nuclear stability, which is why decay appeared in the reply. I suspect you meant element reactivity...

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Or idiot users?

Inquiring minds want to know your methodology in determining these facts.

If true, it would refute all complaints, so please......do tell.

Because a properly heat treated S30V blade doesn't chip?

I'm not a huge fan of S30V either but it's not nearly as bad as you are trying to make it sound. Do you buy liner or frame locks? Because those can have problems and you don't know if you are getting a good or bad one. In fact anything that is man made can have problems. That is why you buy from a reputable maker with a good warranty.

And just so you know you sound like a huge troll with your repeated pointless magic elf turd posts that add nothing to the thread.

 

[Buck_110]

Carbide forming elements are stable, yes. You mentioned nuclear stability, which is why decay appeared in the reply. I suspect you meant element reactivity...

You are correct.
I only mentioned it in response to what was posted below.

The atomic mass of each element will determine carbide concentrations. Heavier elements are more stable than lighter elements. As atomic mass increases, so does the element's stability.
The carbide formers in 420 HC are V and Cr.
V has an atomic mass of 50.9415
Cr has an atomic mass of 51.9961
Since the atomic mass of V is less than that of Cr, it is less stable and bonds more readily. After the V is depleted from forming vanadium carbides, the Cr will follow. Chromium carbides will be formed until there is no more available carbon to bond with the chromium. The Cr that doesn't form carbides will remain as free chromium.

Carbon .46%
Chromium 13.00%
Silicon .40%
Vanadium .30%
Manganese .40%

what? nuclear stability is about atomic decay, and atomic mass is specific to each isotope.

Atomic decay? Are you forming carbides with elements heavier than lead? We're not anywhere near the elements that undergo radioactive decay. The carbide forming elements here are quite stable, decay wise.

 

[BG42EDGE]

Quote Originally Posted by BG42EDGE
Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Or idiot users?

Inquiring minds want to know your methodology in determining these facts.

If true, it would refute all complaints, so please......do tell.

There is always a reason why things happen.

It's always easier to pass the buck than to admit the obvious, human nature......

I'll take that as an "I don't know." Kinda what I thought.

 

[BG42EDGE]

Originally Posted by BG42EDGE
Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Or idiot users?

Inquiring minds want to know your methodology in determining these facts.

If true, it would refute all complaints, so please......do tell.

Because a properly heat treated S30V blade doesn't chip?

And who told you that and how did they know and how did they prove it to you?

Consider again the question: how do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

See how that works?

 

[BG42EDGE]

Originally Posted by BG42EDGE
Again.......(and again and again).....How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Or idiot users?

Inquiring minds want to know your methodology in determining these facts.

If true, it would refute all complaints, so please......do tell.

If you don't like S30V, I won't attempt to change your mind. (Etc.)

So that's a third non-answer to the question posed.

I see a pattern forming.

 

[sodak]

Oh please. I don't much care for S30V, but this is ridiculous.

You asserted that there are "incredibly high numbers" of people reporting S30V chipping, yet, when called out, couldn't prove it. And no, google searches don't mean a thing. How about factory returns? Got any data on that?

Since you are making that assertion, the burden of proof is on YOU.

 

[BG42EDGE]

Originally Posted by BG42EDGE
How do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

Sheesh.. If you wanna go that route, lets start with the fact that sentiment analysis is far more complicated process than you simply typing google search and saying I got n pages of results.

Meaning......you can't answer the question.

So, strictly speaking, how do you even know that those search results all confirmed chipping.

Didn't say they did. What I said was that there were huge numbers of reports of chipping of S30V and very few for other steels (please refer to my original post with links of comparative searches).

 

[Handwrecker]

at least you have abandoned any attempt to appear like you understand anything being discussed

Look what hasn't changed for 'ol BG. The saying of, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." comes to mind. Do you have any experience with your powder steels chipping, or is this an argument based on Google searches? Because we all know the internet never has negative views without much to back it. This is like that recent History Channel Sphynx/gold/aliens argument. We could be programmed to search for gold underground by aliens, because we don't know otherwise! A negative argument isn't valid.

So if I add an emoticon at the end of being rude, it's simply light hearted humor?



I opened and read the first chapter of the book Hard Heart posted. This seems to back up a lot of what is being said by HH and Ankerson.

Nowhere in metallurgy is there a more complete representation of the effect of distribution of hard particles in a soft plastic matrix than in steel. The finer the dispersion, the greater the hardness of the aggregate. Thus the extraordinary range of properties is accounted for.

Not Satan.

Also, this seems to offer some more info to the OP's question.

If a steel should be incapable of acquiring the superior structures in any large section it will manifest a serious shortcoming, and as will be developed, this is a major deficiency of carbon steel.

 

[BG42EDGE]

You asserted that there are "incredibly high numbers" of people reporting S30V chipping, yet, when called out, couldn't prove it.

Again, refer to my original post with links to comparative searches.

You could just say you can't answer the question, rather than getting so upset.

 

[sodak]

I'm not upset, just waiting to see your support for your position. And I am still waiting...