Are CPM ( Powder Steels ) More prone to chipping?

[BG42EDGE]

I'm not upset, just waiting to see your support for your position. And I am still waiting...

Why are you waiting? Didn't see this? "Again, refer to my original post with links to comparative searches."

 

[singularity35]

Why are you waiting? Didn't see this? "Again, refer to my original post with links to comparative searches."

Hey dude, explanations have been given, if you don't accept it, fine. Can you stop now, please? You don't have anything new to say anyway.

 

[jimnolimit]

Then why is C able to form carbides at a percentage concentration of .46%?

What are these percentages based on?
It's more than simply the percentages of Cr and C which are present that determine the percentage of Cr carbide formation.
I suppose a guesstimation can possibly apply if only Fe, C, and Cr are the only elements present.
Add more elements to the steel's composition, and how can carbide concentration be determined without examination of the finished product? Different heat treats are also a factor to consider.

420HC only has 13% chromium, and as chromium is locked up in chromium carbide, it no longer provides corrosion protection. 420HC is pretty corrosion resistant, and to achieve that it needs most of it's 13% chromium to be free, not locked in carbides. most of 420HC's carbon is locked in with the iron, that's why it's hardness can be taken up in the mid-high 50'sHRC (buck claims 58HRC)even though it only has 0.46% carbon. if more than maybe 2%-3% of the chromium got locked up into chromium carbide then it's corrosion resistance and ability to harden the way it does would fall.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Again, refer to my original post with links to comparative searches.

You know, I did some searching myself. Nearly all of the links I read through refer to "early" reports of chipping, which is almost universally due to "improper heat treat." More, most of those reports are second-hand at best, and refer to unsubstantiated "reports." But, evidently "teh interwebz knowz best" as far as you're concerned. All I've seen from you is vague, unsubstantiated, general statements, that are disproven easily by searching, and through my own experience.

What are you trying to prove here?

 

[BG42EDGE]

...we all know the internet never has negative views without much to back it.

Of course, but when we see a flood of negative reports over a number of years about one steel chipping and very limited numbers of chipping complaints about all the other steels combined.......that's a little different.

Where there's that much smoke, there must be some fire--and some serious reasons for the heavy preponderance of complaints about S30V.

 

[jimnolimit]

Of course, but when we see a flood of negative reports over a number of years about one steel chipping and very limited numbers of chipping complaints about all the other steels combined.......that's a little different.

Where there's that much smoke, there must be some fire--and some serious reasons for the heavy preponderance of complaints about S30V.

i wonder how many of those chipping reports were due to people setting their edge bevels too acute?

through use and some testing that i have done, S30V hasn't been "chippy" for me.

p.s. S30V is good but it isn't one of my favorite steels.

 

[BG42EDGE]

I did some searching myself. Nearly all of the links I read through refer to "early" reports of chipping, which is almost universally due to "improper heat treat."

You must have been very selective in your reading.

But tell me this--how do you know that S30V chipping is "almost universally due to improper heat treat."

Where did that mythology start and who has the evidence to back it up?

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Where there's that much smoke, there must be some fire--and some serious reasons for the heavy preponderance of complaints about S30V.

Or just a bad batch. Which, if you READ the reports, is exactly what happened.

As for there being more reports for S30V, that's flat out not true, even if you're only doing weak induction based on number of results.

There were 127K results for "S30V" chipping. There are 217K for "440C chipping." Nearly 4 million for ATS-34. You get the picture.

If you actually READ the reports about S30V, you will realize that they all refer to a few reports from years ago. Problem has since been fixed. If S30V were so terrible, do you think Chris Reeve would be using it?

But tell me this--how do you know that S30V chipping is "almost universally due to improper heat treat."

Where did that mythology start and who has the evidence to back it up?

See how annoying vague, unsubstantiated statements are? I only read the first 10 pages of results. Over 90% of them referred to "reports from years back," and "improper heat treats." There's no evidence whatsoever that anything out of the ordinary actually occurred beyond what seems to have been a poor batch.

" Earlier knives using S30V had reports of chipping from what appears to be improper heat treatment, though recently less of these types of problems seem to be occuring."

"What I actually said was, the chipped S30V that was sent back to and analyzed by Crucible was determined to have chipped because of improper heat treating"

"I have never had S30V chip. D2? oh yes. But like Po said, never after the first hard sharpening. "

"I've heard of some people that have had this problem with S30V. It has something to do with the initial edge not having the same treatment as the rest of the blade."

"These higher transverse toughness results indicate that CPM S30V is much more resistant to chipping and breaking in applications which may encounter side loading."

"the old batch of S30v chipping problem was a heat treating issue that has been corrected on the newer batches."

Just a few examples. Can you leave this be now?

 

[BG42EDGE]

Originally Posted by BG42EDGE
Of course, but when we see a flood of negative reports over a number of years about one steel chipping and very limited numbers of chipping complaints about all the other steels combined.......that's a little different.

Where there's that much smoke, there must be some fire--and some serious reasons for the heavy preponderance of complaints about S30V.

i wonder how many of those chipping reports were due to people setting their edge bevels too acute?

If you want to address it in that manner, then the next obvious question is why the owners of all the other steels had their edge bevels correct?

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

If you want to address it in that manner, then the next obvious question is why the owners of all the other steels had their edge bevels correct?

What, like BG-42? If you want to talk numbers, there are 10 times as many results for "BG-42 chipping." IIRC, S30V was developed to address chipping problems with BG-42.

From one comment: "S30V is tougher, retains an edge longer and doesn't have the edge chipping issues that BG-42 has" (oh the irony)

 

[BG42EDGE]

There were 127K results for "S30V" chipping. There are 217K for "440C chipping." Nearly 4 million for ATS-34. You get the picture.

I do.....but you still don't. You're doing some creative reading and writing.

There were 433,000 hits for "ATS-34 Steel Chip," not 4 million.

And, if you actually READ the ones that are there you'd find a lot like this (which is actually saying that ATS-34 does NOT chip)): "ATS 34 for a working knife is way better than the current S30V. It's tougher, and its edge holding has yet to be beat as far as I am concerned. I carry an ATS 34 every day, I have a drawer full of knives, but I know that the ATS 34 steel is not going to chip, flake, roll or dull unless I do something REALLY stupid to it."

http://spyderco.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-34718.html

That's why you have to read the information.

 

[jimnolimit]

If you want to address it in that manner, then the next obvious question is why the owners of all the other steels had their edge bevels correct?

from what i have seen, it only take a few people to get the ball rolling. 1, 2 maybe 3 reports of chipping get's people talking and a reputation starts to be built. then people start referencing those few reportings.

about a year ago someone complained about ZDP-189 chipping easily and had pictures to prove it, people starting saying ZDP is prone to chipping. i realized that the guy took his edge bevel to what looked like less than 10 degrees per side. i used a ZDP knife (same as his) to test how "chippy" it was. i knew ZDP wasn't chippy because i EDC'd my ZDP endura4 for a year straight and never had a problem. i set my ZDP to about 18 degrees per sides and used it to cut up a coffee can and a 3 liter olive oil can, even cutting through the rim of the olive oil can while using 30-35lbs of pressure on the spine and rocking the knife about 15 times. only after i cut the rim did i get minor chipping to the blade. had i not performed that test, many people who read that thread or searched "ZDP chipping" would have been misinformed.

p.s. i put S30V through the same metal cutting test and it also did well.

 

[Gator97]

Meaning......you can't answer the question.

What question? About nonexistent incredibly high numbers blah blah?
Since you do not understand, let's try again:
1) Your search criteria is too vague, resulting in large number of return values unrelated or contradicting...
2) You are misinterpreting results, deliberately at that. Or, alternatively, you have no clue how to interpret search results and are unwilling to learn...

Didn't say they did. What I said was that there were huge numbers of reports of chipping of S30V and very few for other steels (please refer to my original post with links of comparative searches).

BS. Again, since you like "posing" questions, why don't you answer very basic question, how do you even know all the hits in your search results were actually REPORTING chipping issues and were not arguments like this, or debunking them.... Did you read all the results returned by google? Of course you did not. Yes you make statements about large number of "reports"...

Search on this thread will yield more than one "S30V chipping" results, yet NONE of them are actually reporting S30V chipping, or confirming. You yourself, admit above those results do not confirm S30V chipping, yet somehow you assume they are all REPORTING S30V chipping.

To give you an example, a post with a phrase, "there was this dumba$$ complaining about chipping CPM S30V without ever using it" will be returned as a result in your "S30V Chip" search.
Does that mean this post can be counted as one of those in "incredibly high number"? Of course it can not, but you do. And you know all that, just for the lack of any credible argument(s), you keep referring to that very vague "incredibly high number".
A phrase like "I've never encountered S30V chipping issues" will also be returned as a result of your search. And you will count towards your reports, when in fact it says the opposite, again, w/o proper analysis google hit numbers tells you just that those two words were on the same webpage, but doesn't mean someone was reporting chipping or not chipping.

Like I said, sentiment analysis is something large companies are willing to spend billions on. It's not something you can do just based on search result numbers..

 

[Steel130]

And who told you that and how did they know and how did they prove it to you?

Consider again the question: how do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

See how that works?

And how do you know that the S30V chipping wasnt due to the user bashing it on a rock or trying to cut through a steel bar? Please get off the S30V subject, I didnt label the thread is S30V prone to chipping, I encompassed POWDERED steels. So far the only steels I have really read on are 420HC and S30V. I started this thread because I am trying to delve more into the metallurgy side of steel. Some responses are stretching my brain, and that is good, lets hope the 19 year old here can learn some stuff. Please BG stop the S30V argument or I will ask for the thread to be closed, its annoying me. You have no true substantial evidence that S30V is, and forever will be a chipping steel. I bet if we did a poll S30V wouldnt turn up as chippy as you think.

 

[BG42EDGE]

Is it REALLY all that complicated?

No.

Search words: 425MOD Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=425m...ient=firefox-a

After several pages, no specific complaints or forum discussions of the problem of 425MOD chipping (although there were SEVERAL references to S30V chipping).

Search words: 440C Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=440C...ient=firefox-a

Again, after several pages, no specific complaints or forum discussions on 440C chipping (although, AGAIN, there were comparisons to S30V chipping).

Search words: BG-42 Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bg-4...ient=firefox-a

Same result as above.

Search words: 420HC Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=420h...iw=981&bih=478

Same result as above.

Search words: S30V Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=s30v...ient=firefox-a

My sweet Lord!!! What a difference! More complaints of S30V chipping than you want to count. Hundreds, probably thousands if you took the time to read all the hits......and over a number of years.

No, it's not difficult at all--unless you're trying to defend S30V. Then it will get real tough real fast.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

There were 433,000 hits for "ATS-34 Steel Chip," not 4 million.

Uh huh.

Care to go for round 2?



-edit- Also, your links need some work. I clicked on the last one and there are 5 results. And if you actually read the results, there's no evidence that S30V actually has problems still. There were some early issues with getting the heat treat, but nothing indicating recent troubles. Have YOU actually had an S30V blade chip? Therein lies the rub. You can point to google results, and as we've seen, depending on the search terms you use, you can get different numbers. But that's not the point. The point is that the numbers are irrelevant. If you actually read the reports, they all stem from one bad batch early on with improper heat treat. And even that's irrelevant to the question at hand. The OP asked if CPM was more prone to chipping. The answer is no. If you look at the other CPM steels, you're not going to notice a problem. Why does S30V have issues? Because, as Crucible themselves determined, there were some issues early on with heat treating. Since then, you're going to be hard pressed to find an actual person who has issues with S30V chipping out. All you're running on is hearsay. I was wondering why this thread was still running. I see the answer is you. I'll stop feeding the troll, enjoy your "logic."

 

[BG42EDGE]

Originally Posted by BG42EDGE
And who told you that and how did they know and how did they prove it to you?

Consider again the question: how do you know that the incredibly high numbers of reports of S30V chipping were on improperly heat treated knives?

See how that works?

And how do you know that the S30V chipping wasnt due to the user bashing it on a rock or trying to cut through a steel bar?

Again (for about the tenth time) NO answer to my question. But......

If you want to look at it from that angle, then you'd have to ask why the users of other steels weren't bashing THEIR knives on rocks or cutting steel bars.......because the complaints are overwhelmingly about S30V.

Why are we talking about S30V? Because it's a powder steel, and that's what was asked about.

 

[jimnolimit]

Is it REALLY all that complicated?

No.

Search words: 425MOD Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=425m...ient=firefox-a

After several pages, no specific complaints or forum discussions of the problem of 425MOD chipping (although there were SEVERAL references to S30V chipping).

Search words: 440C Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=440C...ient=firefox-a

Again, after several pages, no specific complaints or forum discussions on 440C chipping (although, AGAIN, there were comparisons to S30V chipping).

Search words: BG-42 Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bg-4...ient=firefox-a

Same result as above.

Search words: 420HC Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=420h...iw=981&bih=478

Same result as above.

Search words: S30V Chip.

https://www.google.com/search?q=s30v...ient=firefox-a

My sweet Lord!!! What a difference! More complaints of S30V chipping than you want to count. Hundreds, probably thousands if you took the time to read all the hits......and over a number of years.

No, it's not difficult at all--unless you're trying to defend S30V. Then it will get real tough real fast.

having people talk about chipping is useless, unless all the facts are known and pictures are provided. just because google provides links with the words "S30V" and "chipping" doesn't really mean much.

 

[BG42EDGE]

Uh huh.

Care to go for round 2?

Sure.

As I said, Google "ATS-34 steel chip" You'll get this: "About 433,000 results (0.11 seconds)"



And again, you have to read them.

For example, take a careful look at every entry on the first page and see how many complaints there actually are about ATS-34 chipping.......fact is, the complaints will usually be about S30V chipping and ATS-34 NOT chipping.

That's why you have to read them.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Perhaps we should turn to science, rather than BG42's obsession with numbers that can, as I believe I've demonstrated, come out however you want. You keep talking about reading the results. Find me an actual person that has had issues with S30V chipping. Can you do that? Or are you going to continue relying on your hearsay reports.

Here's the spec sheet on S30V.

http://faq.customtacticals.com/datasheets/s30v.pdf

Read that one. Particularly the parts where they actually test it for transverse toughness and edge retention. I think that will be more relevant to the OP's question.