Are "High End" production knives worth it? The video

[DennisStrickland]

very well done i think you probably helped a lot of newbies with your great advice.
dennis

 

[bearcut]

Very good advice So-Lo.

Personally, I think the design of a handle and blade may be more impressive and certainly more unique to someone stepping up from the “lower end” offerings.

Case in point:
Sebenza design and blade- So it’s a framelock, big deal. It works pretty much like any other straight handled knife out there. Many knives would substitute for a Sebenza design. It is a very well made knife but, some would say, boring.
Strider Sng/Smf design- it’s actually a lot different than most knives, but a Spyderco Paramilitary is very close in execution. The Para shape and ergos, would mimic a Strider in this case, not too many other knives would though. A buyer would readily see the difference in design and construction of a Strider compared to most other knives. They might also curse the fact that they have to break-in a $400+ folder, something they didn’t have to do with their $60 ones!
Hinderer XM series- The blade shape is almost totally unique. The handle and construction is not readily copied by any other lower cost production knife. A buyer would really notice the difference in this knife and would never think of it as similar to anything else he already had. However, if a buyer paid the exorbitant aftermarket prices some are charging for these knives, he would probably wonder what he paid so much for. It would be a let-down. They are fantastic $400 knives. They are not fantastic $600 knives.
Benchmade Axis lock- Anyone who never used an axis would immediately notice the difference from their other knives.
Spyderco- Anyone who had never used a Spyderco (hole), would immediately notice the difference from their other knives.
The watch analogy is good. I’ve owned G-shocks and Rolex’s. However, my current watch is a Traser auto. Not because it’s tougher than a G-shock, it isn’t. Not because it’s swankier than a Rolex, it isn’t. I like it because it has a blue tritium dial that I can easily read it at night without pushing any buttons, and, it uses no batteries. It is very unique, and the overall design can’t be found anywhere else for the price.
I could care less if everyone bragged about their Rolex, and Sebenza. I have designs I like better.

 

[So-Lo]

Bearcut,

You make a lot of great points!

I also feel the same way :thumbup:

 

[facablade]

I look for utility in my EDC knives and my wallet is no so full to buy one high end folder and use in "dirty" task.
Anyway I ´d like to have several HEK in my collection to drool over them over and over at home and keep them like jewellery.

 

[gwlee]

Nice video.

Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

sal

True, but, on their own, tight tolerances are not a compelling reason for me to purchase a product.

Sometimes, tight tolerances (a product feature) provide a benefit, such as improved function, durability, appearance, etc, but tighter tolerances usually cost more to produce. So, to me, the question is not how tight the tolerances, or whether I can see or measure them, but whether they provide a benefit, and, if so, how much benefit at what cost. (Of course, at this level of refinement, we expect to pay a lot for marginal improvements.)

Some designs require very close tolerances to function properly. In some cases, other, more forgiving designs function as well without requiring such tight tolerances. So, to me, the question becomes: if a design requires very close tolerances to function, does the design provide enough other benefits to compensate for the increased cost?

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi GWLee,

The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

sal

 

[Kaizen1]

A couple of years ago I sold off most of the knives I had to buy into a higher price range. I never owned that many knives at one time because I've always had a pretty limited budget for knives. Overall I was happy with my decision. However, So-Lo has some very good points.

-It takes time to develop the ability to distinguish the subtle differences between medium priced knives ($50-$250) and higher end productions ($250-$600). If you can't make distinguish the differences, you won't have any reason to pay more money. Too often, people blame the knives when it's they who can't recognize and/or appreciate the differences. Some people who can make the distinctions still don't appreciate them but that's a different discussion.

-You will still want lower priced knives for the most part. My two main EDCs each sell for over $500 but I still really, really want a bunch of Spydercos, Benchmades, Kershaws, ZTs, CSs, etc. Going into the higher priced knives, all I've really done is widen the amount of knives I drool over and this makes buying decisions that much more difficult for me. Do I get the Spyderco Military I've wanted for over 8 months now or do save this cash for that Yuna Mini Hard1 (with a small choil, possibly with a moon glow scale) I've been drooling over for the past 6 months? Before going into the higher price ranges, the decision would've been between two or three knives I could afford now.

I've noticed that some folks can really get into appreciating the qualities of one knife and others kind of need to have something new within some amount of time. I think most of us struggle with this to some degree and that's one of the things we need to weigh out. If you have a limited budget like me you'll have to weigh out getting 2-5 $100 knives over 6-8 months or getting 1 $500+ every 5-9+ months.

 

[ChrisB507]

"I think you are going to be underwhelmed." Wow. I thought I was the only one.

I went from a handful of $50ish knives (including a Delica) directly to a new small Sebenza. I remember getting it and thinking, "I just spent $330 on something that really reminds me of my $30 Kershaw Vapor." I still have the small Sebbie, and I've learned a lot since then, and purchased a few folders, $100 and up. While I can now better "appreciate" the Sebenza, I still am underwhelmed.

I've had sharper Spydercos, and Benchmades with smoother action. I've bought prettier Bucks. I still don't really carry the Sebbie much. I like the knife, I just never got the "value" of it for the price.

 

[marthinus]

Great video and thread. Here are my thoughts.

The jump from a 20$ knife to a knife that goes between 100 and 150$ is huge in terms of fit, finish, materials and function. The jump between a $150-$300 + knife becomes a bit difficult to distinguish. The tolerances and fit and finish is the big deciding factor here IMO.
From there on the performance start leveling out and you start paying for handle material, decorations etc. Here is my simple graph.

 

[Stainz]

I like the Sebbie - but the Umnumzaan has me rationalizing it's purchase. I have some nice Ti-framelocks with decent steel - Bechmades - 630/635/760/790 - Kershaw JYDII Ti/SG2 - Buck 172 - and a combat grade ZT-301. Sure, if I hadn't bought that collection alone, I could have had a couple of CRKs. I like my selection. For what I spent on Buck Custom Shop 110's - and, remember, you can get a really nice functional 110 for $27 at WallyWorld - I could have a few CRK's. I love my 110's.

Thank you, So-Lo, you hit the nail squarely on the head with your remark re being 'underwhelmed'. In handguns, I appreciate supurb 1911's - Kimber, Les Baer, Wilson Combat. For carry, I'd opt for a loosey-goosey Springfield Mil-Spec - or, better yet, a Glock. Different scenario - dependability. Reality check - my home is a 'S&W revolver-only' zone - said goodbye to bottom-feeders some years ago. Still, nice is nice! I appreciate well made items. That's tough on a retired teacher's income.

I am not as interested in fb's - I tried to appreciate Busse's - two friends have them - one has a collection and a half. I don't recall seeing asheath between them. I am happy with my Bark Rivers - they came with sheaths. So did my one concession to a hefty fb - a RAT/ESEE RC-5. I love folders, however - and that CRK Umnumzaan is calling my name - maybe the Wilson Combat Star Tac variant... then I'd have something from Wilson! It's pure knife-lust - I am the personification of a knife-slut!!

Stainz

 

[MarineAir]

I can appreciate the materials, skill, etc which goes into a sebenza, or any such blade. However, for me right now, my Lawman, my Griptilian will do anything I need them to do. If I'm going to jump up to a more expensive blade, it's going to be a custom fixed blade tactical bowie or something to that effect. At some point, I might want a CR. I just see no reason for it now. The money I spend on a Sebenza could also be spent on things like another Glock or perhaps a 1911 or something like that.

Glock over any custom/400 dollar knife any day for me

 

[arjung]

I agree with this video.

In fact I think I'll make a response.

 

[powernoodle]

Please let us know your opinions

Thats a nice video, and you have a good "stage presence". You should make more.

For my part, I own spendier knives like Sebenza, Strider, etc., but honestly they don't really float my boat. For whatever reason, I get more pleasure from a nice Stretch 2 or Cold Steel. But I would also much rather have bologna on white bread with Miracle Whip and lettuce, in front of the DVD player, than go to a spendy restaurant.

 

[cziv]

So-Lo;8667306 Please let us know your opinions :thumbup:

I watched your posted video as soon as the thread came up. Not much to comment on since I had bought a large Sebenza 21 with a 3 week old birth certificate on it. I was so underwhelmed that I sold it a week later. Never even sliced paper with it since I knew within minutes that it was headed for the exchange where I recouped "most" of my investment.

It's tough without a knife shop to know what you're getting. The rear uppermost corner put a hot spot in my hand just gripping it firmly and it was not enough handle for the blade size IMHO. They are very attractive though.

I posted because I just spent about 45 minutes on your YT channel watching "tire cut tests" and just cringed at my "grail knives" Hinderer and Strider folders just barely cut the d*mn tire off!! A dismal showing at best!! How discomforting to watch them struggle like boy scout knives.

I watched the Sebenza - a little quicker and the Spydercos, as usual doing best. It makes me re-think my decision to sell off my Military and Police 3 G-10 to help finance my higher end folders that couldn't cut worth a d*mn.

Maybe a professional quality reprofile might make some difference, but I doubt it. Heck my CS large Voyagers would cut those tires faster than the Strider and Hinderer - probably on par with the Sebenza & Spyderco.

In your experience, which of your tire cut test knives did the best job?

Thanks for your videos! :thumbup:

 

[So-Lo]

I watched your posted video as soon as the thread came up. Not much to comment on since I had bought a large Sebenza 21 with a 3 week old birth certificate on it. I was so underwhelmed that I sold it a week later. Never even sliced paper with it since I knew within minutes that it was headed for the exchange where I recouped "most" of my investment.

It's tough without a knife shop to know what you're getting. The rear uppermost corner put a hot spot in my hand just gripping it firmly and it was not enough handle for the blade size IMHO. They are very attractive though.

I posted because I just spent about 45 minutes on your YT channel watching "tire cut tests" and just cringed at my "grail knives" Hinderer and Strider folders just barely cut the d*mn tire off!! A dismal showing at best!! How discomforting to watch them struggle like boy scout knives.

I watched the Sebenza - a little quicker and the Spydercos, as usual doing best. It makes me re-think my decision to sell off my Military and Police 3 G-10 to help finance my higher end folders that couldn't cut worth a d*mn.

Maybe a professional quality reprofile might make some difference, but I doubt it. Heck my CS large Voyagers would cut those tires faster than the Strider and Hinderer - probably on par with the Sebenza & Spyderco.

In your experience, which of your tire cut test knives did the best job?

Thanks for your videos! :thumbup:

Thanks!

I'm going to be making a reflection video soon about the tire cuts. I'll link it here when it's done, well I'll start a new thread here at Bladeforums

And I'd keep that Military!!!!!!!!!

 

[Folderguy]

A good summary might be to say, the jump in "wow factor" between a 5 dollar gas station knife to a 50 dollar spyderco/benchmade/kershaw/whatever is big. The difference in "wow" between that 50 dollar knife (that has similarly fantastic blade materials) to the 500 dollar knife is going to be subtle by compare.

To me, the "gas station" knives are out of the question.

The reasonable starting price for a decent folder is probably in the $25-$30 range, in the US market. Although there are certainly some that could go for less.

Truth be told, my little Sanrenmu 710 is one heckuva decent knife. And you probably know what they go for.

However, when you take the jump up and hit the Benchmade or Zero Tolerance or Emerson grade knives, the quality increase is pretty obvious.

Going up from there, well, it gets kinda dicey, doesn't it?

I'm talking production knives, obviously.

A few weeks ago I went to the Chicago Knife Expo, and was I wowed there, or what!!

However, the WOW factor was coming by and large from the custom knives, including from those made by folks who produce production knives, like Strider, and Emerson. Their customs were lots better, but in ways that probably can't be easily quantified. Take that for what it's worth.

As the OP said, don't sell off your collection to buy just one knife...

No way I'm going to do that.

Another idea: if you want an awesome, custom-like knife, take a really good knife, like many of the Benchmades, for instance, and modify it. Sand down the blade and give it a hand rubbed finish. Take the knife apart and polish the pivot screw or bushings. Polish the bearings/washers or replace them with an upgrade. Make some awesome, one of a kind scales to go on your knife. Guess what you'll have after all that? It's simple: a knife that will be plenty "custom" and that you will love, perhaps more than any custom you might find. Why? Because you've put your heart into making that knife totally special...

My two cents worth...

Folderguy

 

[Folderguy]

Like anything of this sort there will always be diminishing returns as the price goes up. Yeah, a Rolex is nicer than a Seiko, a Bentley is nicer than a Hyundai, and a Sebenza is nicer than a Delica. Does a Bentley get you there 20 times better? Does a Rolex tell time 50 times better? Does a Sebenza cut 8 times better? No.

I routinely carry $200-400 worth of knives at any given time, because I like nice knives. I carry them in my $15 shorts while wearing my $10 t-shirt. It's all about what you're interested in.

Most Rolexes won't hold their value in the secondary market. Caveat Emptor...

 

[Folderguy]

True, but, on their own, tight tolerances are not a compelling reason for me to purchase a product.

Sometimes, tight tolerances (a product feature) provide a benefit, such as improved function, durability, appearance, etc, but tighter tolerances usually cost more to produce. So, to me, the question is not how tight the tolerances, or whether I can see or measure them, but whether they provide a benefit, and, if so, how much benefit at what cost. (Of course, at this level of refinement, we expect to pay a lot for marginal improvements.)

Some designs require very close tolerances to function properly. In some cases, other, more forgiving designs function as well without requiring such tight tolerances. So, to me, the question becomes: if a design requires very close tolerances to function, does the design provide enough other benefits to compensate for the increased cost?

Excellent, excellent, excellent points and questions. :thumbup:

 

[Folderguy]

"I think you are going to be underwhelmed." Wow. I thought I was the only one.

I went from a handful of $50ish knives (including a Delica) directly to a new small Sebenza. I remember getting it and thinking, "I just spent $330 on something that really reminds me of my $30 Kershaw Vapor." I still have the small Sebbie, and I've learned a lot since then, and purchased a few folders, $100 and up. While I can now better "appreciate" the Sebenza, I still am underwhelmed.

I've had sharper Spydercos, and Benchmades with smoother action. I've bought prettier Bucks. I still don't really carry the Sebbie much. I like the knife, I just never got the "value" of it for the price.

No kidding. That Kershaw Vapor and its Titanium Nitride coated blade just begs to be sanded down and given a hand rubbed finish. After doing that, you might just really question the in-pocket-EDC-value of the definitely better higher end knives...

And that modded Kershaw Vapor will be your go-to knife for messy stuff, and you'll love every minute of it. How do I know??

Folderguy

 

[cziv]

Another idea: if you want an awesome, custom-like knife, take a really good knife, like many of the Benchmades, for instance, and modify it. Sand down the blade and give it a hand rubbed finish. Take the knife apart and polish the pivot screw or bushings. Polish the bearings/washers or replace them with an upgrade. Make some awesome, one of a kind scales to go on your knife. Guess what you'll have after all that? It's simple: a knife that will be plenty "custom" and that you will love, perhaps more than any custom you might find. Why? Because you've put your heart into making that knife totally special...

WARNING THE ADVICE ABOVE IS NOT INTENDED FOR EVERYONE. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME UNLESS YOU POSSESS THE SKILL SETS TO ACCOMPLISH THE AFOREMENTIONED TASKS. YOU COULD DESTROY A PERFECTLY GOOD KNIFE!!