Are knives weapons, or are they tools?

[Londinium Armoury]

I'm still not sure what you are getting at, man. Are you implying to a long standing, very established knife community that we don't know some knives are high speed low drag death machines? We've been making fun of those knives and the people gushing over them since I signed up like 15 years ago. I've been in the community a long time. The knives we discuss, carry and purchase here are used for light daily work, pocket jewelry, safe queens, etc. Trying to tell us that knives are inherently weapons is silly.

So are you making fun of my family members who served in the SAS and carried fairbairn sykes, because it is high speed low drag tacticool? Would they fit in better with you and get your approval if they carried a Sebenza and posted pics of it on instagram.
You seem to be implying that only instagram knife posters, guys who carry pocket jewelry and collect safe queens are the only real knife users who are welcome in this community.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Knives were not originally designed as weapons. They were designed as small hand tools for cutting things like hide and foliage. They were shortly thereafter implemented as weapons, something blunt objects had been used for long before the knife was discovered.

Nobody misunderstands the difference between a combat knife and a box cutter, man. Put your cape away, the day is saved. Your work is done.

Have you read all of those posts in this thread? do you really see everybody agreeing, because to me it looks like there's quite a few people who are not on board with the idea.

 

[not2sharp]

It's not about looking for a knife to use as a weapon, it's about being able to tell the difference between a knife that is designed for fighting and a knife that was designed for kitchen use. A fighting knife is designed very differently to a kitchen knife, the design features are easily noticed just by a simple glance. Dedicated fighting knives just like every other specialist knife is made to perform a function.
People have no trouble acknowledging the many types of Japanese kitchen knives and their very slight differences for performing ever so slightly different food prep tasks. Then the huge glaring differences between a fighting knife and utility knife are somewhat lost on them.

Are we trying to define a weapon or a fighting knife? Those are two very different things. It is one thing to walk over and stab someone; and quite another to engage in what amounts to a structured duel. Also, “fighting knife” is a loaded term that encompasses knives used for utility while engaging in combat, like the US mk II which has been driven into rations vastly more often then it has unlucky sentries.

Historically, edge weapons were called swords and knives were seldom mentioned and rarely if ever issued.

n2s.

 

[J85909266]

So are you making fun of my family members who served in the SAS and carried fairbairn sykes, because it is high speed low drag tacticool? Would they fit in better with you and get your approval if they carried a Sebenza and posted pics of it on instagram.
You seem to be implying that only instagram knife posters, guys who carry pocket jewelry and collect safe queens are the only real knife users who are welcome in this community.

No, I'm making fun of you, and now you trying to ride on the implied valor of your supposed family members that may or may not have ever used a very specific knife in a very specific context that applies to very few people that have served and even fewer civilians like yourself, and I. Give it a rest.

You know what? Nevermind, I'll give it a rest. This is getting too stupid to continue participating in. Enjoy your evening.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Are we trying to define a weapon or a fighting knife? Those are two very different things. It is one thing to walk over and stab someone; and quite another to engage in what amounts to a structured duel. Also, “fighting knife” is a loaded term that encompasses knives used for utility while engaging in combat, like the US mk II which has been driven into rations vastly more often then it has unlucky sentries.

Historically, edge weapons were called swords and knives were seldom mentioned and rarely if ever issued.

n2s.

I am classifying knives into groups, and seperating the knives that are weapons from the knives that are not weapons, because some people think that all knives are weapons as long as they can stab people and be used as weapons.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

No, I'm making fun of you, and now you trying to ride on the implied valor of your supposed family members that may or may not have ever used a very specific knife in a very specific context that applies to very few people that have served and even fewer civilians like yourself, and I. Give it a rest.

You know what? Nevermind, I'll give it a rest. This is getting too stupid to continue participating in. Enjoy your evening.

Uh huh, you went out of your way to insult and make fun of people based on what type of knife they carry, I like the way you said supposed family members, as if to imply it's a false claim. If you need to insult people over a debate about knife designs then that's your issue, nobody asked you to comment you chose to take part in the discussion yourself. If it is such a stupid discussion and beneath you, I wonder why you took part in it, you obviously cared enough to read it.

 

[not2sharp]

I am classiying knives into groups, and seperating the knives that are weapons from the knives that are not weapons, because some people think that all knives are weapons as long as they can stab people and be used as weapons.

That because some people are ignorant idiots. I have no intention of unlearning what I know about knives to satisfy their agendas.

n2s

 

[Arathol]

You are using semantics to say the exact same thing with different wording, with the exception of trying to sneak improvised weapons into the definition of weapon. Some knives are dedicated designed weapons, not improvised or adapted, created thought out, planned and designed to be weapons. I don't care if you smack somebody in the head with a hockey stick or a frozen fish, they are not weapons, they are just foreign objects you are assaulting people with.
A trench knife is a weapon, like it or not.
A SAK is not a weapon, no matter how many people you jab with it.

I do hope this wasn't your defense when appearing before the magistrate.....
Nobody is sneaking anything in. That is the definition, look it up....If you hit somebody with a hockey stick or any other object with the intent to do bodily harm, that object is in fact a weapon. Try telling the judge otherwise. Go out into the park and start stabbing people with your SAK. You will find out in short order that it is indeed a weapon because you chose to use it to do bodily harm. If you chose to peel an apple with it, not so much....and yet again we see that pesky intent of use thing....
You can design and build any knife you want for whatever purpose you claim its for. That doesn't mean it won't or can't be classified as a weapon. There is no black and white here, no clear cut absolutes. There is no way to establish definitions as simply as you are imagining. This subject has been debated for centuries, you are not going to change anything....

 

[Londinium Armoury]

That because some people are ignorant idiots. I have no intention of unlearning what I know about knives to satisfy their agendas.

n2s

It's not uncommon, I've read it many times here on the forum and heard it in real life as well. I've had my Spyderco UKPK slipjoint knife be called a weapon before.

 

[not2sharp]

It's not uncommon, I've read it many times here on the forum and heard it in real life as well. I've had my Spyderco UKPK slipjoint knife be called a weapon before.

And I have had my medium stockman referred to as a weapon by idiots who insisted I put it away so they could continue to open their mail with car keys or their teeth.

n2s

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I do hope this wasn't your defense when appearing before the magistrate.....
Nobody is sneaking anything in. That is the definition, look it up....If you hit somebody with a hockey stick or any other object with the intent to do bodily harm, that object is in fact a weapon. Try telling the judge otherwise. Go out into the park and start stabbing people with your SAK. You will find out in short order that it is indeed a weapon because you chose to use it to do bodily harm. If you chose to peel an apple with it, not so much....and yet again we see that pesky intent of use thing....
You can design and build any knife you want for whatever purpose you claim its for. That doesn't mean it won't or can't be classified as a weapon. There is no black and white here, no clear cut absolutes. There is no way to establish definitions as simply as you are imagining. This subject has been debated for centuries, you are not going to change anything....

Again this is not a legal topic or discussion, you are trying to force legal definitions as the linguistic measure by which we must determine what an object is classed as. Your argument depends on somebody using something in an unlawful manner, because the Spyderco UKPK in my pocket yesterday was not legally classed as a weapon where I live.
Using something as a weapon and an object being in and of itself a weapon are 2 different things. It doesn't matter if a legal definition claims an object was being used as a weapon. Here it is classed as a bladed article used in an assault, and an offensive weapon is something different than a legal work knife, they are not even in the same legal catagory or under the same legal definition so even in your own legal argument where I live you are wrong. The offensive weapons act covers things that are legally defined as weapons, and a sub 3 inch slip joint is not classed as an offensive weapon here, even if it was used in an assault it would be called a bladed article.
But still as I said this is not a legal discussion, so I reject your legal definitions that are as stated subject to region and change anyway.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

And I have had my medium stockman referred to as a weapon by idiots who insisted I put it away so they could continue to open their mail with car keys or their teeth.

n2s

They didn't even ask to borrow your deadly weapon, they must love the taste of glue and paper.

 

[sabre cat]

Again this is not a legal topic or discussion, you are trying to force legal definitions as the linguistic measure by which we must determine what an object is classed as.

And you are forcing us to agree to a definition that ignores a persons actions. You expect us to use a definition that is based solely upon the original designers intent.

Tell me, do I have a weapon because I own the M3 Trench Knife that was issued to my father during WW2?

The knife has never been used to kill or injure anyone. And never will be.

 

[sabre cat]

It's not uncommon, I've read it many times here on the forum and heard it in real life as well. I've had my Spyderco UKPK slipjoint knife be called a weapon before.

And I have been called a baby killer by someone because I was in uniform. I never have killed any person in my life. Calling me that does not make it so. Just like calling a knife a weapon does not make it so. It takes both action and intent to make it happen.

Like I have said before, allowing something to be defined as a weapon without action from it’s owner is a slippery path towards loss of rights and privileges.

Based upon your arguments and comments, I don’t think you are a US citizen. My guess is across the pond. Am I correct?

 

[TwinStick]

Sadly, this is an all too common question.
Also sadly, the answer is dependent on ones point of view or mood they are in that day.

I live in a rural area. School was surrounded by corn fields on 3 sides. While waiting in line inside the gas station to pay for my fuel, the very young, very snotty & sarcastically rude female cashier saw the pocket clip of my knife, the knife was inside my pocket. She said, almost yelling it, what's the weapon for pal ? Then we played the Symantec's game.

I said it's not a weapon, it's a tool. She continued to be very loud & sarcastic and give me crap. So I started shoveling it right back at her. Asking her, do you butter your bread with a weapon ? Do you cut your steak with a weapon ? She said no. I continued, do you pound nails with a weapon ? Do you write with a weapon ? Do you eat your cereal with a weapon ?

She then became embarrassed, just like she made me. I told her I literally was trained in the US Army how to kill someone with a spoon & was a Corrections Officer for 30 years. I have seen people die from getting stabbed in a main artery with a pen & pencil , have met at least 4 people who killed with a hammer & many many who killed or almost killed with a baseball bat. So anything can be used as a weapon but until they do, they are all just tools, just like a gun & the misuse of the tool is and should always fall onto the person who misuses it. Never should an inanimate object be demonized, the misuser should be held accountable.

People behind me started clapping. She said she never thought of all that. I smiled & said then today is a great day because you learned something today. Paid for my fuel & left. 3 years later she is still there & says hi every time she sees me.

It was one of the very few times recently that a young person actually learned from my experiences. Usually they just spew their crap & don't even want to be logical or hear anyone else's opinion. They know everything about everything.......at least my 2 grown kids do ! Lol

 

[Londinium Armoury]

And I have been called a baby killer by someone because I was in uniform. I never have killed any person in my life. Calling me that does not make it so. Just like calling a knife a weapon does not make it so. It takes both action and intent to make it happen.

Like I have said before, allowing something to be defined as a weapon without action from it’s owner is a slippery path towards loss of rights and privileges.

Based upon your arguments and comments, I don’t think you are a US citizen. My guess is across the pond. Am I correct?

Calling a knife a weapon when it was designed as a weapon is the correct thing to do.
Stop trying to make this into a legal and political discussion, you keep trying to steer the direction of this thread into political and legal realms, and I'm not going to follow that line of thought, for one reason it's not posted in the correct forum for that to be the topic, and 2 politics are not supposed to be discussed in knife threads.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

And you are forcing us to agree to a definition that ignores a persons actions. You expect us to use a definition that is based solely upon the original designers intent.

Tell me, do I have a weapon because I own the M3 Trench Knife that was issued to my father during WW2?

The knife has never been used to kill or injure anyone. And never will be.

Thats the thing though, I'm not talking about people I'm talking about objects, I'm talking about knives, I didn't mention people in my OP. Yes the M3 Trench knife is a weapon, no matter where the object is the object itself is a fighting knife and a weapon, doesn't matter if it is at the bottom of the ocean 10 miles from a single person, the knife itself is a weapon.

 

[sabre cat]

Sadly, this is an all too common question.
Also sadly, the answer is dependent on ones point of view or mood they are in that day.

I live in a rural area. School was surrounded by corn fields on 3 sides. While waiting in line inside the gas station to pay for my fuel, the very young, very snotty & sarcastically rude female cashier saw the pocket clip of my knife, the knife was inside my pocket. She said, almost yelling it, what's the weapon for pal ? Then we played the Symantec's game.

I said it's not a weapon, it's a tool. She continued to be very loud & sarcastic and give me crap. So I started shoveling it right back at her. Asking her, do you butter your bread with a weapon ? Do you cut your steak with a weapon ? She said no. I continued, do you pound nails with a weapon ? Do you write with a weapon ? Do you eat your cereal with a weapon ?

She then became embarrassed, just like she made me. I told her I literally was trained in the US Army how to kill someone with a spoon & was a Corrections Officer for 30 years. I have seen people die from getting stabbed in a main artery with a pen & pencil , have met at least 4 people who killed with a hammer & many many who killed or almost killed with a baseball bat. So anything can be used as a weapon but until they do, they are all just tools, just like a gun & the misuse of the tool is and should always fall onto the person who misuses it. Never should an inanimate object be demonized, the misuser should be held accountable.

People behind me started clapping. She said she never thought of all that. I smiled & said then today is a great day because you learned something today. Paid for my fuel & left. 3 years later she is still there & says hi every time she sees me.

It was one of the very few times recently that a young person actually learned from my experiences. Usually they just spew their crap & don't even want to be logical or hear anyone else's opinion. They know everything about everything.......at least my 2 grown kids do ! Lol

Your two kids sound like my daughter and ex-wife.

 

[TwinStick]

Sorry, I didn't think I mentioned politics. I thought I just told an experience I had where someone told me my pocket knife was a weapon.

Won't happen again. I won't post my experiences. Or was that not directed at me ? I'm confused now.

When I first read it, there was no quote. Now there is a quote. So not me ?

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Sorry, I didn't think I mentioned politics. I thought I just told an experience I had where someone told me my pocket knife was a weapon.

Won't happen again. I won't post my experiences.

My comment was directed at Sabre Cat, who I quoted.
I read your edit update, must be a glitch in the matrix, I've also had experiences like that. Even when visiting family members.