Are knives weapons, or are they tools?

[Legendary_Jarl]

Well if you ask people like Kamala Harris a non-locking swiss army knife is a dagger so all knives must be weapons lol. On average knives are tools. Most knives are used in the kitchen or on utility tasks. That being said, some knives are exclusively designed for fighting or combat such as the fairbairn sykes and to me those are weapons.

 

[J85909266]

Except yes some knives are specifically designed to cut human flesh, I can name hundreds of blades that were specifically designed to indeed cut human flesh, and not whittle wood or open your mail. You tell us why the Fairbairn Sykes was created, what was it's intended application.

I never said some knives weren't designed as weapons. I said all knives are not weapons, and that the main point of a knife is not to be a weapon, but to cut things.

We could even go deeper and further prove how silly your argument is. How many daggers out there do you really think were ever used as a weapon? lol. Toys for armchair warriors.

 

[Arathol]

It's a weapon, which is a tool designed to kill.

This is where you keep going wrong.....that is not the complete definition of a weapon. A weapon is not necessarily something that was specifically designed to kill or injure some one. A weapon is by definition anything "manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury". Note the word "adapted". That means any mundane object that was not specifically designed as a weapon can be determined to be a weapon depending on the circumstances.
A hockey stick is designed specifically as a piece of sporting equipment, yet if you were to assault somebody with one then it becomes a weapon and you are charged with ADW accordingly. Again, there is that intent of use thing.....

 

[Londinium Armoury]

He's another question I want to ask in this silly thread:

There are hundreds of us active here carrying knives and using them to cut things every day. How many of us have ever used one as a weapon? I never have. I'm willing to bet 99% of the other members here never have either. Even law enforcement and military very, very rarely use a knife as a weapon because they just aren't very good weapons in the modern world.

I will agree that there is an outdated perception that knives are inherently weapons, but I do not agree that it is correct or should continue to be that way. Knives stopped being a good weapon choice a long time ago, but using them as a tool to cut things will never go away. They have always been tools first. There is literally no valid comparison between a modern pocket knife and a gun.

You're missing the point, to answer your first question yes I have. But more importantly it's not about using any old knife as an improvised weapon. It's about being able to tell the difference in design features of a dedicated bladed weapon, and a utility knife.
How many of you EDC a fairbairn sykes, a Rondel Dagger, a huge Bowie knife, or a tanto. Probably not many, and there's a reason you don't because they aren't made to be utility knives, and even if you don't consciously acknowledge the difference between a combat knife and a utility knife, you subconsciously know they are not designed for everyday cutting tasks.
Why aren't warehouse staff issues with Trench knives, because the last warehouse I worked in we got issued with stanley utility blades, because what a shocker, they are made for those tasks we did.

 

[needler420]

This is where you keep going wrong.....that is not the complete definition of a weapon. A weapon is not necessarily something that was specifically designed to kill or injure some one. A weapon is by definition anything "manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury". Note the word "adapted". That means any mundane object that was not specifically designed as a weapon can be determined to be a weapon depending on the circumstances.
A hockey stick is designed specifically as a piece of sporting equipment, yet if you were to assault somebody with one then it becomes a weapon and you are charged with ADW accordingly. Again, there is that intent of use thing.....

Very true.

 

[J85909266]

Pretty sure a sword, not a knife is designed to do exactly that, cut human flesh. It wasn't designed for culinary foods.

I thought this thread was about pocket knives, not swords. My bad. By this logic hammers are weapons because war hammers used to be a thing. You.. you do know that nobody seriously uses swords as weapons anymore, right?

 

[Londinium Armoury]

This is where you keep going wrong.....that is not the complete definition of a weapon. A weapon is not necessarily something that was specifically designed to kill or injure some one. A weapon is by definition anything "manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury". Note the word "adapted". That means any mundane object that was not specifically designed as a weapon can be determined to be a weapon depending on the circumstances.
A hockey stick is designed specifically as a piece of sporting equipment, yet if you were to assault somebody with one then it becomes a weapon and you are charged with ADW accordingly. Again, there is that intent of use thing.....

You are using semantics to say the exact same thing with different wording, with the exception of trying to sneak improvised weapons into the definition of weapon. Some knives are dedicated designed weapons, not improvised or adapted, created thought out, planned and designed to be weapons. I don't care if you smack somebody in the head with a hockey stick or a frozen fish, they are not weapons, they are just foreign objects you are assaulting people with.
A trench knife is a weapon, like it or not.
A SAK is not a weapon, no matter how many people you jab with it.

 

[J85909266]

You're missing the point, to answer your first question yes I have. But more importantly it's not about using any old knife as an improvised weapon. It's about being able to tell the difference in design features of a dedicated bladed weapon, and a utility knife.
How many of you EDC a fairbairn sykes, a Rondel Dagger, a huge Bowie knife, or a tanto. Probably not many, and there's a reason you don't because they aren't made to be utility knives, and even if you don't consciously acknowledge the difference between a combat knife and a utility knife, you subconsciously know they are not designed for everyday cutting tasks.
Why aren't warehouse staff issues with Trench knives, because the last warehouse I worked in we got issued with stanley utility blades, because what a shocker, they are made for those tasks we did.

I'm honestly not sure who you are arguing with, but it isn't me. On the topic of points missed, you didn't seem to process any of mine.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I thought this thread was about pocket knives, not swords. My bad. By this logic hammers are weapons because war hammers used to be a thing. You.. you do know that nobody seriously uses swords as weapons anymore, right?

This thread is about all knives, not just folding knives. The same thing applies for hammers, a War hammer is a weapon designed to kill people. A claw hammer is a utility tool and not a weapon. They are both hammers and one of them is a weapon and the other one isn't.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I'm honestly not sure who you are arguing with, but it isn't me. On the topic of points missed, you didn't seem to process any of mine.

Which of your points didn't I respond to?

 

[DocJD]

what was it's intended application

Actually , I think just morale building was and is big factor in military knives . Probably most fighting knives .

In WW2 , Allied spies were issued tiny lapel pinch knives ...to fight with fully armed Nazi soldiers .

The bayonet in the 21st Century battlespace .

More talisman / lucky charms than useful weapons .

 

[J85909266]

This thread is about all knives, not just folding knives. The same thing applies for hammers, a War hammer is a weapon designed to kill people. A claw hammer is a utility tool and not a weapon. They are both hammers and one of them is a weapon and the other one isn't.

Nobody is arguing that basic tools like cutting implements and objects that apply blunt force have been applicated as weapons historically, man.

The issue here is context. Pretty much zero serious people are EDCing a scimitar or a rondel every day looking for a fight. If you see a clip on a dudes pocket, it means he likes to cut up his beer and amazon boxes and post a pictures after on Instagram.

 

[not2sharp]

If you are looking for a knife to use as a weapon, you need look no further than your kitchen steak knife. It is an ideal tool to use as a weapon. The knives that we like to talk about here, pocket knives, Bowie’s, daggers or camp knives or military knives, are all designed for a different purpose. They are designed for convenience of carry, for ease of use at various tasks and for durability at that use. Frankly, a weapon knife is a very low threshold of performance; our stuff is designed to rend far tougher material than human flesh for extended periods of time, they are designed for real work.

n2s

 

[DocJD]

You don't think anyone's ever had their eyes gouged out with a spoon?

Reminds me of "The Painted Bird " .

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Actually , I think just morale building was and is big factor in military knives . Probably most fighting knives .

In WW2 , Allied spies were issued tiny lapel pinch knives ...to fight with fully armed Nazi soldiers .

The bayonet in the 21st Century battlespace .

More talisman / lucky charms than useful weapons .

Melee weapons in modern combat are still functional and used, especially in trench warfare and inside buildings. The beyonets are not for show they are expected to be used if the situation calls for it. Especially when you cannot reload, or are in close proximity of enemy soldiers. Even the Fairbairn sykes is not just a decoration it was specifically designed for ambush attacks and fighting. MAny melee weapons were used in trench warfare, Trench axes, trench knives etc, they were not only used they were effective.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

If you are looking for a knife to use as a weapon, you need look no further than your kitchen steak knife. It is an ideal tool to use as a weapon. The knives that we like to talk about here, pocket knives, Bowie’s, daggers or camp knives or military knives, are all designed for a different purpose. They are designed for convenience of carry, for ease of use at various tasks and for durability at that use. Frankly, a weapon knife is a very low threshold of performance; our stuff is designed to rend far tougher material than human flesh for extended periods of time, they are designed for real work.

n2s

It's not about looking for a knife to use as a weapon, it's about being able to tell the difference between a knife that is designed for fighting and a knife that was designed for kitchen use. A fighting knife is designed very differently to a kitchen knife, the design features are easily noticed just by a simple glance. Dedicated fighting knives just like every other specialist knife is made to perform a function.
People have no trouble acknowledging the many types of Japanese kitchen knives and their very slight differences for performing ever so slightly different food prep tasks. Then the huge glaring differences between a fighting knife and utility knife are somewhat lost on them.

 

[J85909266]

It's not about looking for a knife to use as a weapon, it's about being able to tell the difference between a knife that is designed for fighting and a knife that was designed for kitchen use. A fighting knife is designed very differently to a kitchen knife, the design features are easily noticed just by a simple glance. Dedicated fighting knives just like every other specialist knife is made to perform a function.
People have no trouble acknowledging the many types of Japanese kitchen knives and their very slight differences for performing ever so slightly different food prep tasks. Then the huge glaring differences between a fighting knife and utility knife are somewhat lost on them.

I'm still not sure what you are getting at, man. Are you implying to a long standing, very established knife community that we don't know some knives are high speed low drag death machines? We've been making fun of those knives and the people gushing over them since I signed up like 15 years ago. I've been in the community a long time. The knives we discuss, carry and purchase here are used for light daily work, pocket jewelry, safe queens, etc. Trying to tell us that knives are inherently weapons is silly.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Nobody is arguing that basic tools like cutting implements and objects that apply blunt force have been applicated as weapons historically, man.

The issue here is context. Pretty much zero serious people are EDCing a scimitar or a rondel every day looking for a fight. If you see a clip on a dudes pocket, it means he likes to cut up his beer and amazon boxes and post a pictures after on Instagram.

They weren't just applicated as in random blunt impact tools were used, they were designed as weapons from the ground up. Yes people do not EDC a rondel because it's a weapon not a knife for opening boxes. I have been the one explaining context from the very start, the context is in the details of the difference between a utility knife and a dedicated weapon.

 

[Therom]

Very interesting topic

i think knives are one item that stands exactly on the line between tool and weapon

maybe it is because no one can really tells if the first knife made was made to be a weapon or to be a tool

also the variety of blade shapes for different uses makes it difficult to classify them as there are blade shapes for tools as well as for weapons.

because of that I think that a classification makes sense only if you consider a specific item.

 

[J85909266]

They weren't just applicated as in random blunt impact tools were used, they were designed as weapons from the ground up. Yes people are not EDC's a rondel because it's a weapon not a knife for opening boxes. I have been the one explaining context from the very start, the context is in the details of the difference between a utility knife and a dedicated weapon.

Knives were not originally designed as weapons. They were designed as small hand tools for cutting things like hide and foliage. They were shortly thereafter implemented as weapons, something blunt objects had been used for long before the knife was discovered.

Nobody misunderstands the difference between a combat knife and a box cutter, man. Put your cape away, the day is saved. Your work is done.