Are knives weapons, or are they tools?

[dryflytrout]

Some are tools. No one would consider a butter knife a serious weapon right?
Most people wouldn't consider a bayonet a tool, even though you could spread butter with one. I would say a bayonet is a tool though. It has an intended purpose that it makes easier than doing it with your bare hands.

Maybe a better answer is your intent with the knife. Most of the knifes I carry wouldn't be the best tool to use against a person. But I would certainly improvise if necessary and they would be effective at causing harm. That said, I've never cut anyone other than myself. I have cut more rope, cardboard, tape and other materials than I can recall. So what's my intent?

 

[Peter Hartwig]

I am in the they are a tool camp, that can be used as a weapon. Some configurations being better weapons. I have never used a knife as a weapon or defense, just basic daily tasks.

 

[rje58]

I never said "no knife is a weapon". I was taking an opposite position to the position I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that you were taking. I thought your position was "all knives are weapons". What exactly is your position?

And tell me why those blades needed to be specifically excepted in the law as "not weapons"??? Do they have a maximum length that a wrench can be before it is a weapon? No. And we all know why.

And why has Bastler had a conversation with his lawyer about how to describe his pocket knife to the cops when asked about weapons? Do you think he questioned him about how to describe the hammer or wrenches in a tool bag in his floorboard? NO! AND WE ALL KNOW WHY. Common sense.

 

[Velitrius]

For the answer to this philosophical discussion, we must go to the judges on Forged in Fire...

If your knife is a P.O.S., whether it's a paring knife, a throat slasher or a potato peeler, you are ordered to "Surrender your WEAPON".

And during the testing, I don't care if it's a bread knife, hand it to Doug Marcaida and he'll tell you that "It will KEEL!"

So there you have it. Knife = Weapon ... Purpose = KEEL!

Sorry to have ended the discussion so early, but y'all been millin' 'round like a bunch of sheep waiting for a border collie to show up.

 

[JAM]

My position is that people who insist that knives aren't weapons (and have a problem with the fact that they are even called such) are not being realistic and are dishonest with themselves. Most knives are designed as utility tools and perform handily at that. The vast majority of them will never cut anyone on purpose and that's fine with me. But to ignore the fact that nearly all of them with more than a couple inches of blade are quite capable of being deadly weapons (and that this has proven to be the case for thousands of years) and everyone (fans of knives or not) is aware of that is just not realistic.

It's not that I have a problem with them calling knives tools. Knives ARE tools. Weapons are tools. Just that way some insist that they aren't weapons and should not be called weapons and there is no difference between knives and combs.

 

[Lesknife]

I never said "no knife is a weapon". I was taking an opposite position to the position I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that you were taking. I thought your position was "all knives are weapons". What exactly is your position?

Yes I agree, seems like a confusing circle of arguments that are chasing after it’s self. Like I said it’s a lack of understanding.

Everything has a reason and a purpose. When something is used outside of the purpose it was designed for then it corrupts the purpose and brings into question what is acceptable . That’s what we have now is a backwards, upside down culture that doesn’t use anything for its intended purpose.

 

[killgar]

Usage. Design intent. The law. Perception.

Usage- Many things can be used as weapons, even if they weren't designed as weapons, or if they are actually impractical for that purpose.

Design intent- Some knives are specifically designed as weapons, some are specifically not designed as weapons. No one is going to tell me a Gerber Mark2 or a Fairbairn/Sykes dagger aren't weapons, or that they weren't designed as weapons.

The law- If the law says your knife is an illegal "weapon", or that you have used a knife unlawfully as a "weapon", and if a prosecutor can convince a jury to agree, it's not going to matter if YOU don't consider the knife to be a weapon, or what the intent of the designer was, you're doing time.

Perception- Every individual has their own perception of knives in general, and individual knives specifically. Some people truly look upon a SAK as a "weapon". A cop may look upon any knife that could harm them as a "weapon", or a "potential weapon", regardless of it's design.

Most people who are serious about carrying a SD knife would not use the SD knife for utility tasks and dull it's edge. They would carry 2 blades, one as a beater and for actual utilitarian use, and their SD knife which they keep razor sharp with a keen edge.

I disagree with this. I carried the knife below for several years. I used it at work (shipping, construction). If the blade started dulling from use it was easy enough to pull out a pocket hone and touch up the edge (did this for work). And as I was advised by my attorney, I left tape residue on the blade, and small amounts of drywall mud here an there in the handle so that if a prosecutor tried to argue that I was carrying the knife specifically as a weapon, to hurt people, my attorney could argue that evidence clearly showed that I used the knife for work. A knife doesn't have to be pristine to be used effectively as a weapon.

Anyone who is serious about self-defense considers the possibility that they might end up in court.

On the subject of cops, I used to openly carry fixed-blades wherever I went. Did so for many years here in San Diego. I'm a biker, I look the part, several cops have seen me carrying a fixed-blade and never said a word about it or stopped me for questioning. Even on those occasions when I've been stopped by the cops (traffic/vehicle code violation) they've never given me a hard time about my knife (or anything else).

My last encounter with cops while openly carrying a fixed-blade went like this- Cops stopped me for an improperly mounted license plate. Lead cop asked me why I was carrying the knife. I said "To cut stuff". Cop asked me if I had any other weapons on me. I said "No. But I do have 2 pocket knives on me". He had no interest in those, didn't have me hand them over or even ask where they were. He gave me a friendly warning about my license plate, told me to adjust it when I got home, and sent me on my way with all my knives, without a ticket, and without any attitude or hassle.

 

[rje58]

My position is that life is dangerous - most knives are not weapons. Some - many knives are weapons.

You said:
"... are quite capable of being deadly weapons (and that this has proven to be the case for thousands of years) ..."

The above can also be said for rocks, poles, hammers (or similar age-old tools), human hands and many other things.

My position is that people who insist that knives aren't weapons (and have a problem with the fact that they are even called such) are not being realistic and are dishonest with themselves. Most knives are designed as utility tools and perform handily at that. The vast majority of them will never cut anyone on purpose and that's fine with me. But to ignore the fact that nearly all of them with more than a couple inches of blade are quite capable of being deadly weapons (and that this has proven to be the case for thousands of years) and everyone (fans of knives or not) is aware of that is just not realistic.

 

[JAM]

The above can also be said for rocks, poles, hammers (or similar age-old tools), human hands and many other things.

Of course it can. But there is also a reason there aren't specific exceptions in your state law on the size of rock or hammer you can carry or how heavy your cane can be. And we all know why.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I had to stop replying to do something weird, but possibly amazing, I put some shed snake skin to dry in a sheet of wet resin, hopefully when it dries, I will have some sweet shed snake skin handle scales, or possibly a sheet of disgusting garbage, time will tell.

 

[rje58]

You still haven't responded to my question. I think the whole crux of our disagreement is this: "Are ALL knives weapons?" Yes or No.

My position is clear. Many knives are in fact weapons. But most are not.

Of course it can. But there is also a reason there aren't specific exceptions in your state law on the size of rock or hammer you can carry or how heavy your cane can be. And we all know why.

Speaking of laws regarding knives, in your quote, above.

Is fertilizer a weapon? Why are certain types of fertilizer sales recorded and tracked, by law?

Why is martial arts training considered to legally make a person's hands "weapons", in some jurisdictions? Does that mean all hands are weapons? As much or more so than knives? Less so?

 

[JAM]

You still haven't responded to my question. I think the whole crux of our disagreement is this: "Are ALL knives weapons?"

No. Of course not. I have a tiny SAK on my key ring almost no one would consider a weapon. It doesn't mean that "knives aren't weapons."
Would you disagree with my position that "we all know why" your state has to exempt knives under a certain length from being "weapons"? Yes a hammer can be a deadly weapon and dead is dead whether it's from a cut or blunt force. But acting like there is no difference between a 3" bladed pocketknife and a hairbrush (not saying this is you) is more than a little disingenuous. If you don't know why, you need help.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

No I wouldn't. Doesn't follow that "knives are tools, not weapons."

Knives aren't just utility tools is what i'm saying, there are knives that are utility tools, and there are knives that are weapons. Some knives and especially some daggers which are just a type of knife, are just weapons and nothing else. Good examples are the Rondel, the Khyber, the Bollock dagger, the trench knife, the stiletto dagger, fighting knives with sharpened false edges like certain bowies, the Karambit etc. They are only for fighting. You could also include things like the tanto unless you want to class that as a short sword, it is typically a fighting knife. if not the tanto the Kaiken/Kwaiken.

 

[rje58]

Then we don't disagree all that much, now that you have agreed that not all knives are weapons. Now we just disagree on the number and percentage of knives that are weapons.

In my opinion, it's disingenuous to take very general, almost vague, positions, and then say that people who don't agree with you "need help".

Yes, of course, there is a LOT of difference between a pocketknife with a three-inch blade and a hairbrush. But my position is that the VAST majority of pocket knives with 3-inch blades are not, in fact, weapons. And that if they are used as weapons, it's an improvisation to do so, just as it would be with a screwdriver, hammer or baseball bat.

If you use a large Fairbairn-Sykes knife as a weapon, that is not an improvisation.

No. Of course not. I have a tiny SAK on my key ring almost no one would consider a weapon.
Would you disagree with my position that "we all know why" your state has to exempt knives under a certain length from being "weapons"? Yes a hammer can be a deadly weapon and dead is dead whether it's from a cut or blunt force. But acting like there is no difference between a 3" bladed pocketknife and a hairbrush (not saying this is you) is more than a little disingenuous. If you don't know why, you need help.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I think it helps the knife carrying community (You know, normal people) if we differentiate between utility tools and weapons, so that everyone carrying a standard EDC doesn't get treated like they are some kind of dangerous individual serial killer in the making. Not that I actually have a problem if you want to carry a 16 inch bowie knife, I'd probably ask to have a look at it and smile that you are carrying one. I have no problem if people want to carry a Katana and a desert eagle as long as you don't point them at me you are fine to me.
But here where I live I get funny looks from pulling out a Spyderco UKPK, like I did something wrong, people tell me it's a weapon and I laugh at them, like no really this is not a weapon, if you want me to show you what a bladed weapon is I can show you a 16 inch bowie knife, or a knightly dagger and a Katana, those are weapons, this little thing is just my EDC that I use to do basic tasks with.
I like people to know what an actual weapon looks like so you don't mistake my little 3 inch EDC folder for a 2 handed Greatsword made to cleave people in twain. The general public is getting very bad, back in my grandads childhood he could walk around with a knife and nobody would care, but in my lifetime, I get funny looks for carrying the most tame pocket knife. I even go out of my way to carry a non scary looking blade, when in reality I don't even want to carry these blades, I have to conform because of other peoples fears, and they will even call the police because they saw a tiny little spyderco knife.

 

[JAM]

Then we don't disagree all that much, now that you have agreed that not all knives are weapons. Now we just disagree on the number and percentage of knives that are weapons.

In my opinion, it's disingenuous to take very general, almost vague, positions, and then say that people who don't agree with you "need help".

Yes, of course, there is a LOT of difference between a pocketknife with a three-inch blade and a hairbrush.

I didn't say it's disingenuous to disagree with me. I said it's disingenuous to say there is no difference between the knife and a brush and you just agreed that "there is a LOT." It would be unreasonable to assert that there isn't.

But my position is that the VAST majority of pocket knives with 3-inch blades are not, in fact, weapons. And that if they are used as weapons, it's an improvisation to do so, just as it would be with a screwdriver, hammer or baseball bat.

The fact remains most 3" blades make a FINE weapon, "designed" as a tool or not. And yes a hammer does too. Doesn't mean the blade isn't a weapon. It is recognized as such by the vast majority of people (no matter how we define it here). And for good reason. I fail to understand what is accomplished by trying to deny that.

If you use a large Fairbairn-Sykes knife as a weapon, that is not an improvisation.

 

[JAM]

I think it helps the knife carrying community (You know, normal people) if we differentiate between utility tools and weapons

Unfortunately that's not the case. As said earlier these people can't be reasoned with. You will never please them. No matter how small and cute your carry knife gets you will never win them over. Any knife outside a kitchen is a dangerous weapon to them and you are a psychopath for carrying it.

 

[killgar]

I think it helps the knife carrying community (You know, normal people) if we differentiate between utility tools and weapons, so that everyone carrying a standard EDC doesn't get treated like they are some kind of dangerous individual serial killer in the making. Not that I actually have a problem if you want to carry a 16 inch bowie knife, I'd probably ask to have a look at it and smile that you are carrying one. I have no problem if people want to carry a Katana and a desert eagle as long as you don't point them at me you are fine to me.
But here where I live I get funny looks from pulling out a Spyderco UKPK, like I did something wrong, people tell me it's a weapon and I laugh at them, like no really this is not a weapon, if you want me to show you what a bladed weapon is I can show you a 16 inch bowie knife, or a knightly dagger and a Katana, those are weapons, this little thing is just my EDC that I use to do basic tasks with.
I like people to know what an actual weapon looks like so you don't mistake my little 3 inch EDC folder for a 2 handed Greatsword made to cleave people in twain. The general public is getting very bad, back in my grandads childhood he could walk around with a knife and nobody would care, but in my lifetime, I get funny looks for carrying the most tame pocket knife. I even go out of my way to carry a non scary looking blade, when in reality I don't even want to carry these blades, I have to conform because of other peoples fears, and they will even call the police because they saw a tiny little spyderco knife.

No offense, but I'm very glad I don't live where you do.

Over the past several years here in the states, many anti-knife laws have been repealed, making it legal in various states for people to own and carry knives that were previously illegal to own and carry. With the incredible efforts of organizations like Kniferights.org, more and more politicians and state legislators are recognizing how ridiculous many of our past restrictive knife laws are/were, and changing those laws for the better.

Legally speaking, the US is becoming more accepting of knives, rather than more restrictive. Of course there are places here where the knife laws are still draconian, but heck, even here in California, under state law it's perfectly legal to openly carry any size or type of fixed-blade in public. It's been that way since before I was born, and I've never seen any effort made to change it.

 

[JAM]

Appeasement is not the answer. You are letting them control the narrative. "That's scary you shouldn't be allowed to have that." So you get a little shorter blade. A pink handle. It's still a weapon to them and you've let them push you farther to having no blade. They won't stop until you have nothing.

 

[rje58]

Absolutely agree with this!! Well said.

Unfortunately that's not the case. As said earlier these people can't be reasoned with. You will never please them. No matter how small and cute your carry knife gets you will never win them over. Any knife outside a kitchen is a dangerous weapon to them and you are a psychopath for carrying it.

As for which knives are weapons, and which are not, let's agree to disagree about this.

Just because many people consider "any knife is a dangerous weapon" and that "you are a psychopath" for carrying it, doesn't mean that it is true. That is a wildly misinformed view to take - almost delusional.