Are knives weapons, or are they tools?

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We have a difficult position to stake out but an important one. Knives can be tools, fidget devices, status symbols, collectors items, and yes weapons. None of these things are wrong though. Where you run into trouble is when you say something like "well, knives that are tools are okay but those ones that are weapons are really beyond the pale." When that happens, you get legislative creep where automatic knives are "weapons"...then those over 5 inches are now "weapons" and then its 4 inches, then 3....then its locking knives.

We need to do more educating that owning knives as a functional tool is fine. Owning one with a front flipper to fidget with is fine. Owning a bunch of safe queens is fine. Owning a karambit for self defense is fine. They are all knives and they are all okay, their use is up to the end user like any product and abuse of that product is not an indictment of other users of that product. We came around to this line of thinking after prohibition yet it still remains a mental speed bump for many when it comes to other products.
 
I do not like this kind of thread. This is the kind of thing that the media feeds on, it affects everyone's attitude about knives and cranks laws tighter and tighter on our hobby.

99% of knives are tools, even the Karambit that was discussed earlier was a pruning knife used as an improvised weapon. A hunting knife is a tool to take apart the animal you just used a real weapon on. A machete can out cut a Katana but it's not a weapon, it's a tool. The Kukri, which has a reputation for being a wicked fighting implement, still has utilitarian uses. Even knife-type military bayonets double as a field knife for utility uses. Until you get into daggers, rondels, dirks, stilettos, etc. that have no real edge or are too long and thin to be used for anything but fighting you can't call a knife a weapon. It goes for any object, once it's lost its utility value and it's only good for fighting, then it's a weapon.

Legally, I think a person who was acting in a questionable manner should be charged with something like intent to cause harm rather than being charged simply for carrying an inanimate object, plenty of people have been hurt or killed with bare hands by striking or strangling. Not to get off subject on a gun tangent, but in Missouri we have permitless carry. If I can pass a background check to buy a handgun it's legal to carry it concealed. Politicians were crying that it was going to be like the wild west and everyone would be shooting all over the place when the law passed, but you know what? Outside of the heavy gang activity areas in the big cities that were violent before the law passed, we don't have much trouble.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
I think it helps the knife carrying community (You know, normal people) if we differentiate between utility tools and weapons, so that everyone carrying a standard EDC doesn't get treated like they are some kind of dangerous individual serial killer in the making. Not that I actually have a problem if you want to carry a 16 inch bowie knife, I'd probably ask to have a look at it and smile that you are carrying one. I have no problem if people want to carry a Katana and a desert eagle as long as you don't point them at me you are fine to me.
But here where I live I get funny looks from pulling out a Spyderco UKPK, like I did something wrong, people tell me it's a weapon and I laugh at them, like no really this is not a weapon, if you want me to show you what a bladed weapon is I can show you a 16 inch bowie knife, or a knightly dagger and a Katana, those are weapons, this little thing is just my EDC that I use to do basic tasks with.
I like people to know what an actual weapon looks like so you don't mistake my little 3 inch EDC folder for a 2 handed Greatsword made to cleave people in twain. The general public is getting very bad, back in my grandads childhood he could walk around with a knife and nobody would care, but in my lifetime, I get funny looks for carrying the most tame pocket knife. I even go out of my way to carry a non scary looking blade, when in reality I don't even want to carry these blades, I have to conform because of other peoples fears, and they will even call the police because they saw a tiny little spyderco knife.
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Pretty to think so ...but you aren't able to "educate" those that have a fanatical anti-weapon / SD ideology .

Logic , reason and moderation have no place here .

You either are willing to allow law abiding citizens the basic right of self defense , and the tools / weapons to accomplish the task of self protection ...or not .

The assumption becomes that anything that can be potentially used as a weapon and is not considered a necessity of life / work, by the authorities , should be outlawed .
 
I agree with what you said in the rest of your post (the part I did not quote) but I have to disagree with your thoughts on this thread. We can't decide what we will or won't say on Bladeforums - or any public forum - based on whether or not any "media" is paying attention or what they might think or say about it!

I'm sure they'd have much more of a field day in PracTac then anything discussed here, anyway. But no, I don't think PracTac threads should revolve around "OMG, what will the media or some other naysayer/opponent think or say about this!??!"

MarkN86 said:
I do not like this kind of thread. This is the kind of thing that the media feeds on, it affects everyone's attitude about knives and cranks laws tighter and tighter on our hobby.
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I see them as potentially both. The public designation is likely based on perceived intent, and to a degree, location, whether we like it or not. With a knife, axe, shovel, whatever. What is your intent of use? Walking through the woods with an axe implies a different intent than strolling through downtown Vancouver. Walking with your wife through a city park is very different than walking into divorce court with a large folder. A knife is a tool or weapon based on your intent. And you could have the best of intentions, but that knife is best left in the glove box or trunk when going to some public locations. Do you want to see a huge folder on a staff member in your child's day care ?
 
The problem with spending more time trying to draw lines on what is or is not a weapon rather than staking out a position that owning a knife for either functionality or as a self defense weapon is fine, is that legislation almost always goes one way. Once we go out of our way to say, "well my mini griptilian is just a tool, those whackos with huge fixed blades are the problem! Go after them!" we have lost. They may very well go after those fixed blade owners first, but your time is coming. As I said, it starts as a ban on bayonets and large machetes, goes to automatic knives, then its locking knives....pretty soon you are registering your kitchen knives as deadly weapons. Very rarely does regulation and legislation give more rights and power to the common person. We need to focus more on educating people that policy by lowest common denominator is always bad policy.
 
upnorth said:
Do you want to see a huge folder on a staff member in your child's day care ?
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Sure. It's an adult working at a daycare. If they want to do harm they can, regardless of what sort of knife they're carrying. I'd be more concerned about a "Get the **** off of my ***" bumper sticker. A road ragey personality definitely isn't the person I want dealing with my little one.

Knives can be tools or weapons. Mine are tools. I've got no interest in engaging someone with a blade.

Sure, I'll use it if all other options have been exhausted, but that tiny chance isn't factored into my purchases.
 
An analogy from the prohibition prospective in the United States would be: is alcohol a dangerous drug ripe with abuse? Or is it a beverage consumed for recreation? Is is a cultural food item for some people? Is it an art?

The answer is its all of these things and more. Some absolutely will use and abuse alcohol as an addictive drug. The point legislatively is that it is not useful, productive, or just to treat all users as if they are future abusers. Treating the man who enjoys a beer on the weekend the same as the man who drinks a liter of moonshine, beats his wife and drives his truck into a lamp post is wrong.

This is policy by lowest common denominator. The governing body is too lazy to adjudicate the difference between these men so they look at the lowest common denominator. What makes them the same? They both drink alcohol. So they legislate the product. Banning it, regulating it, taxing it etc.

We need to do a better job with knives. There will be bad people that use knives not as tools, but as weapons. There will be GOOD people that use knives as weapons to defend themselves. These situations should be adjudicated on a case by case basis. Spending time drawing lines on what is or is not a weapon only muddies the water and makes the ownership of knives for any purpose unnecessarily arduous.
 
You forgot collection pieces.
I would bet between 80% and 90% never see any use other than admiration by their owners.
I never understood why a company offers and sells a bowie knife for hundreds of dollars
advertised as fighters when probably zero are actually used as such.
And I cringed when the zombie killing craze was going on.

Side note when you read MOST weapons laws, they state with the intent to go armed.
So when you carry two foot bowie better be able to prove you were trimming the bush.
With most CCW laws you would get in more trouble with a huge knife than a handgun.
 
upnorth said:
Do you want to see a huge folder
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No , it should be well concealed along with a sidearm .

Why would you trust your child to someone you can't trust with a weapon ?

How then do you expect them to protect your child ?
 
JAM said:
Of course it can. But there is also a reason there aren't specific exceptions in your state law on the size of rock or hammer you can carry or how heavy your cane can be. And we all know why.
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You seem to know everything about where we all live.... A few of you might be trolling, or maybe living outside of the United States of America?

I have NO restrictions for blade length, or type of blade. No special license is required for concealed or not. I can carry daggers, swords, switchblades, whatever.
Only that they cannot be carried in gov buildings, and schools. Can't be a convicted felon, or a minor.

Knives are Tools...… and this IS a legal definition......And we all know why.
 
I think it's disingenuous for anyone in this community to try to insinuate that there aren't an entire "genre" of knives marketed specifically as weapons (for self-defense or otherwise). If you care enough about knives to post on BF, you know enough to realize that some knives are designed and sold as cutting tools and others as weapons. As I said in the Cold Steel thread where this came up, Lynn Thompson doesn't shoot videos of him carving up pig carcasses and meat boots to demonstrate a knife's utility as a butchering tool.

Oddly enough, I think the way Florida has dealt with the concealed carry of knives makes a lot of sense (even a blind dog...); per statute, a "weapon" (for purposes of carrying a concealed weapon) excludes a "common pocketknife." While "common pocketknife" has never been explicitly defined, an AG opinion from the 1950s, finding a folding knife with a blade under 4 inches is a common pocketknife, has served as the general guideline for decades. Basically, if you have a folding knife under 4 inches, it's presumed to not be a weapon. That doesn't mean that it can't be a weapon, but the law doesn't assume it's a weapon absent evidence to that effect (e.g., the Spyderco Matriarch and CRKT Provoke are probably going to be considered weapons). And while I'm sure there are BF members who will insist their 6" folding kris is a "common pocketknife," I'm pretty confident that they purchased it precisely because of how "uncommon" it is.

Unfortunately, while there are plenty of people who are unreasonably frightened by anything with a sharp edge on it and will consider them all weapons, there are also a number of blade enthusiasts whose inability to read a room exacerbates the issue. There's a difference between carrying a 4-Max at a construction site, where nobody is likely to care, and whipping it out in the lunchroom at your office job, where Sheila the Secretary is going to flip out and report you to HR. The fact that people not only ignore this sort of distinction but get defensive about their behavior being viewed as antisocial just perpetuates the issue.
 
K.O.D. said:
This is a large part of why most of my folders are sub 3.6"

I don't carry or plan to use a knife as a weapon. In the last 20 years mass public opinion and perception has changed about having anything bladed on you.

In that I spend a lot of time with my sister, I've found that many of her friends are of the sheeple breed.

A few years ago I was at her house for one of my nephews birthday parties when my sister asked if I could open something for her. She knows I always have a knife. I was carrying my ZT 0095 BLK s90v. As I was opening the box, one of her friends walked in and screamed. Then proceeded to yell at me for carrying such a deadly weapon and to please put it away. My sister and I looked at her completely baffled. I tried the it's a tool not a weapon on her when I finished opening the box. Those kind of people just can't be reasoned with.

Anything can be a weapon. One of my size 14 shoes could definitely cause some damage. Hell I could kill you with a broom handle were I so inclined.

But today it's more about perception than use or intent.
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Wow.

I once had a woman comment about my PM2. Paraphrasing, she said; "Why do you need such a big knife at work!?"


Some people are just weak minded.

Of course, we all know a PM2 has a relatively small blade - the cutting edge is only three inches.
But to her, it was a huge, scary knife.
 
I've read and participated in the entire thread and I don't recall anyone taking that position...? Did I miss something?

OrangeBlueOrangeBlue said:
I think it's disingenuous for anyone in this community to try to insinuate that there aren't an entire "genre" of knives marketed specifically as weapons (for self-defense or otherwise).
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IMO, all knives are tools. That’s my story and I am sticking to it.

If you or I start conceding to the idea that a knife is a weapon, we are slowly aiding those who will erode our rights and privileges until we have nothing left.

Yes, some knives were designed to be used as weapons and have little or no practical use as anything else. But, in public, I will not admit that. Ever. It is detrimental for me to do that.

Just like it is politically detrimental for me to refer to my sidearm, rifle, or shotgun as a weapon.

The term “weapon” can be loosely defined as anything used in an offensive or defensive way. Yet, the media and politicians both know that most people only focus on the offensive aspects of the term. That is why using the term “weapon” is hurting gun owners and society. It is only a matter of time before knife and gun owners are considered complete wackos by the general population.

A knife is a tool. Considering it a weapon gives others the right to regulate or ban it’s use and erode our rights.
 
Crag the Brewer said:
You seem to know everything about where we all live.... A few of you might be trolling, or maybe living outside of the United States of America?

I have NO restrictions for blade length, or type of blade. No special license is required for concealed or not. I can carry daggers, swords, switchblades, whatever.
Only that they cannot be carried in gov buildings, and schools. Can't be a convicted felon, or a minor.

Knives are Tools...… and this IS a legal definition......And we all know why.
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Where I live there are few restrictions. I believe daggers, dirks, and some other styles are not allowed to be carried concealed. Other than that, pretty much anything you want to carry you can. And that's the way it should be. I don't let someone afraid of a tool keep me from carrying my 4 max scout wherever I want, because I'm not going to do any harm with it. I like it because it's ridiculous, but functional, and you'd never know the size of the knife with it in my pocket. It actually carries very discreetly.

The vast majority of knife related crime seems to be done with large kitchen knives, probably cheap dollar general ones at that. Anyone who had intent to hurt or kill someone with a knife is probably not going to go and buy an expensive bowie to do it. Just get the cheapest thing you can that will do the job.

But people who carry a knife, just like the majority carrying a firearm, aren't going to just go out with the intention of stabbing people.
 
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