Are knives weapons, or are they tools?

[JAM]

You seem to know everything about where we all live....

That was in reply to rje58. Who posted his state law specifically states blades less than 4" are not to be considered weapons. I don't claim to know anything about where "you all" live but I have no reason not to take him at his word. My point was there is a reason written laws specifically put those sorts of things in for blades but not hammers or wrenches. And yes, we all know why.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I didn't read this further, as I looks like the OP answered his own question...wondering WHY this was a thread in the first place...

Looks like you didn't read enough again, maybe instead of reading a single sentence, try reading the entire thing and you may learn something useful. Who said this forum is only for asking questions? I said I saw other forum members debating this topic, and I wanted to explain the truth of the matter. The question was rhetorical, this isn't a thread asking people to tell me the answer to a question I don't know, this is me answering the question for people who don't understand.
Next time you try to be a smart ass, maybe try to actually say something smart.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

So a broadsword or katana isn't a weapon if all it does is hang on the wall? And they only become weapons when used with intent to kill? As a self-defense pistol that's never actually used in a defense situation not a weapon either?



If Cold Steel's new owners had a sense of humor, they'd have Lynn Thompson reenact this story in a video and release it on April 1, 2021.

Bingo.

 

[lieferung]

A knife is primarily a tool, but some are designed eirher partially (survival) or explicitly (fighter/SD) to be weapons.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

A lot of you are trying to pigeon hole various blade styles into an evil corner.....

I've got one for you, that I don't think has been mentioned?

What is a machete?

* The answer is (Tool)

The machete falls into the fourth catagory that I mentioned in my OP, it is often depending on the type of machete and the region it originates from, both. It is a dual purpose utility tool and weapon. Like the Kukhri it is both a tool designed for utility and a weapon at the same time. Sometimes due to local tribes prefering a shorter weapon due to fighting in dense jungles and bush where swinging a longer weapon actually becomes cumbersome and less effective than a shorter one.
Sometimes because it is cheap and more efficient than carrying 2 dedicated blades. it was often paired with tribal shields in parts of Africa, sometimes in the past you find very crude swords forged in Africa that are basically machetes, but used primarily as weapons, that double up as a tool used to clear branches. The sword used by the Masai tribe could be classed as a machete, it was used for everything, from a bush tool, to a weapon of war, and for dispatchig wild animals.

 

[Sergeua]

It could be a weapon, but for our benefit we can say it's used as a tool and not at all for self defense. With a weapon like a pistol you can't argue the same. Next question.

 

[Lesknife]

I’m glad that here in Kansas we have constitutional carry for guns and knives. Blade length, fixed, folding, automatic or swords have no restrictions. The only restrictions are throwing stars and projectile knives.

When anyone tries to make a differentiation of what equates a weapon or a tool that’s where we have a problem concerning freedoms. Back in 2012 I think it was, our state attorney general and governor along with some constitutional scholars wanted to eliminate the tired arguments about knife and gun restrictions and some tools or items that could be used as a weapon. They made it simple. It’s none of your business if I have a gun, knife or tool in my possession at any time any where. Even in my vehicle. I can use them for self defense and protection of my family and possessions. As long as I’m not breaking the law or threatening someone with a device that can cause harm then there is no reason for concern. In their words they made it clear that we are innocent until proven guilty of a crime. Having a knife or gun, or a hatchet doesn’t make you guilty of anything nor is having any make it a crime. It’s the illegal actions of a person doing something that bring it into question and for a jury to decide the verdict.

This is how it should be concerning any item I want or need for a tool or a weapon to defend myself, family or home.

 

[Chronovore]

Almost anything can be used as a weapon, with varying effectiveness. One issue to consider is that "weapon" is often considered in an offensive context, even when the actual use is purely defensive. That might seem semantic but shaded language has been a major tactic in the effort to ban certain EDC items. As a result, I'm not alone in preferring "defensive tool" to describe items purely intended for that kind of use.

As far as defensive tools go, folding knives are not very effective. They can be under particular circumstances but a core concept in preparedness means being prepared for as many of the potential situations of need as is possible. Carefully considering the full variety of defensive encounters in which the use of a knife as a defensive tool would be justified, they just aren't very good. Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to carry a folder as a defensive tool.

If you want to carry a dedicated defensive tool, consider the full range of options that are legal and practical to carry in your daily life. If you need your knife to double as a defensive tool, consider an EDC fixed blade.

 

[Arathol]

What's the point of this thread anyways? To distinguish that knives can be used as defense and as a tool? That's pretty common sense. Seems like this thread pretty much will go nowhere, cause where is it supposed to go anyways?

Why are you asking? Legal reasons?

I didn't read this further, as I looks like the OP answered his own question...wondering WHY this was a thread in the first place...

Read some of the OPs posts in other threads, then the reason for bringing this up just might be a bit more clear....

https://bladeforums.com/threads/mod...-military-combat.1766519/page-7#post-20240877

Most any knife that is a pocket knife by common definition or that is defined by statute as legal to carry where you live could also be construed as a weapon if used to commit a crime. Most any object that can be used to commit a crime against another person could be defined in court as a weapon if the specific intent of use at the time the crime was committed was to inflict bodily harm or instill fear.
Some knives are weapons by design and have no real purpose except as a weapon.
Swords are not knives, they are edged weapons designed for the specific purpose of warfare.
Every state in the US has laws with specific definitions, as do other countries. If anybody has a question as to what is a weapon and what isn't, just read your General Statutes and find out. Opinions don't count in court.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

It could be a weapon, but for our benefit we can say it's used as a tool and not at all for self defense. With a weapon like a pistol you can't argue the same. Next question.

You argue that a Rondel, Trench knife, or an Italian Stiletto dagger is a utility tool? What utility are you using those for exactly?

 

[Lesknife]

You argue that a Rondell, Trench knife, or an Italian Stiletto dagger is a utility tool? What utility are you using those for exactly?

In Kansas it’s none of your business what kind of knife I have or how I use it. Having a knife doesn’t make you a criminal. Check my post above.

 

[JAM]

The irony is that you keep making blanket statements that knives are weapons even while you say that of course not all knives are weapons, seemingly without realizing that that type of language is gold for the people trying to ban all knives.

Openly contending that "knives are weapons. Period" and then complaining that "They won't stop until you have nothing" seems silly to me. You could be the poster boy for the anti-knives campaign. Lol

I have a nice collection of knives. Not one of them is a weapon

No irony there. Knives are weapons. Denying they are won't keep them from being banned. The banners will not agree with your definition of what is a weapon. We can't say "well that one is a weapon but this one is a tool" and expect that to matter to them. They will want them all banned. Appeasement DOES NOT WORK. That's the fallacy. You let them say "well this one is OK but that one is obviously a weapon so you can't have it." No. You let them deny you weapons then it's just a matter of defining which is and which isn't but then the banners use a broader and broader definition of which ones are weapons. Don't let them start with the premise that they should be allowed to deny you having a weapon to start with.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Read some of the OPs posts in other threads, then the reason for bringing this up just might be a bit more clear....

https://bladeforums.com/threads/mod...-military-combat.1766519/page-7#post-20240877

Most any knife that is a pocket knife by common definition or that is defined by statute as legal to carry where you live could also be construed as a weapon if used to commit a crime. Most any object that can be used to commit a crime against another person could be defined in court as a weapon if the specific intent of use at the time the crime was committed was to inflict bodily harm or instill fear.
Some knives are weapons by design and have no real purpose except as a weapon.
Swords are not knives, they are edged weapons designed for the specific purpose of warfare.
Every state in the US has laws with specific definitions, as do other countries. If anybody has a question as to what is a weapon and what isn't, just read your General Statutes and find out. Opinions don't count in court.

So you want to extrapolate reasons from other threads to conclude my "reasons" for creating this thread, instead of reading the actual OP of this thread which explains clearly why I made this thread? what the law says about it is moot and a non issue, if I wanted to discuss the legal definition of the word weapon in modern society I would have started this thread in the Knife laws forums, instead of the general knife discussion forum.
This is a matter of intended design, and the classification of tools and weapons. Explaining the difference between a weapon and a utility tool.

 

[pholder]

I guess my Leatherman is actually a multi-weapon, cool!

 

[Londinium Armoury]

In Kansas it’s none of your business what kind of knife I have or how I use it. Having a knife doesn’t make you a criminal. Check my post above.

This isn't a legal or lawful topic of discussion, it is a discussion about weapons and utility tools from across the world and their intended application, and design.
If I started a thread explaining the difference between the Japanese Odachi and the European Montante in the sword forum, people would understand that it is a topic about classification and design features of 2 swords, the fact that Japanese civilians cannot own a Katana without a license and Europeans can own Montante without one doesn't affect the topic of why they are different swords.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I guess my Leatherman is actually a multi-weapon, cool!

Is it? looks like a very poor weapon to me, who designed it to be used as a weapon, I can't find anything on their website.

 

[JAM]

Yes the gun thing is similar. Some think that you can reason with the hoplophobes. They are wrong. "Well those scary black rifles are obviously weapons, nobody needs a 30 round magazine to hunt. They should be banned." Some think that this is a reasonable concession. "That has nothing to do with my scoped bolt action I use to hunt." WRONG. Then the banners get around to saying "That is obviously a weapon. Almost identical to a military sniper rifle." And they're right, because it is. Your pump shotgun is only a couple accessories away from being a 8 shot "riot gun" too. Where you went wrong was letting them say you shouldn't have a weapon thinking your "tool" would be safe from their sickness. It won't be.

Calling your AR a "sporting rifle" will NEVER convince them it's not an "assault rifle." Your 3" pocket knife scares them almost as much as a 6" dagger would it's just a matter of degree and they will get around to putting it in the same category with a little time.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Yes the gun thing is similar. Some think that you can reason with the hoplophobes. They are wrong. "Well those scary black rifles are obviously weapons, nobody needs a 30 round magazine to hunt. They should be banned." Some think that this is a reasonable concession. "That has nothing to do with my scoped bolt action I use to hunt." WRONG. Then the banners get around to saying "That is obviously a weapon. Almost identical to a military sniper rifle." And they're right, because it is. Your pump shotgun is only a couple accessories away from being a 8 shot "riot gun" too. Where you went wrong was letting them say you shouldn't have a weapon thinking your "tool" would be safe from their sickness. It won't be.

Calling your AR a "sporting rifle" will NEVER convince them it's not an "assault rifle." Your 3" pocket knife scares them almost as much as a 6" dagger would it's just a matter of degree and they will get around to putting it in the same category with a little time.

With respect to the gun topic even though this thread is about knives. A weapon is a tool designed to cause harm or injury. If you use a weapon in a sporting manner doesn't change the fact that it is a weapon. I use my swords in a sporting manner and for training, HEMA test cutting Kenjutsu Tameshigiri etc, technique drilling. They are still weapons, even if you don't use them to harm or kill.
You can take a 50 cal rifle to the range, and only use it for competition shooting and never shoot a single person with it, it doesn't make it a non weapon. A farmers shotgun is a weapon, a hunters rifle is still a weapon.
Some things that were weapons can be scaled down and designed to be non lethal, like a paintball gun, you can't really call that a weapon because it was never designed to kill or inflict harm, it is purely a sportng tool for playing games.
You can possibly make an argument that childrens bows designed for target shooting with extremely low draw weights are no longer weapons, because they were designed not to be used as weapons and not designed to actually inflict harm or kill things. But as soon as you get up to hunting bow draw weights even though they were designed to kill game and not humans they are still hunting weapons. Tools yes but also weapons. As long as something was designed to inflict harm or kill something it is a type of weapon, you can also have non lethal weapons, that are not made to kill, but are still designed and made to cause some form of harm to disable a target.
Whether or not the law says you can own a weapon is a different topic of debate, the fact is some blades are not weapons and were never designed to harm or kill living things, even if said knife can harm somebody or not, its design and function and intended application determines if it is a weapon or not.

 

[Arathol]

So you want to extrapolate reasons from other threads to conclude my "reasons" for creating this thread, instead of reading the actual OP of this thread which explains clearly why I made this thread?

When a person who has been convicted of felony weapons charges makes posts complaining about the laws in his country and then starts a thread asking if particular items are a weapon or a tool, possible ulterior motives need to be considered.....and that you might be looking for validation by having others tell you your knife is not a weapon.....

what the law says about it is moot and a non issue, if I wanted to discuss the legal definition of the word weapon in modern society I would have started this thread in the Knife laws forums, instead of the general knife discussion forum.
This is a matter of intended design, and the classification of tools and weapons. Explaining the difference between a weapon and a utility tool.

What the law says is not moot or a non-issue. What the law says is the final word if you are found in possession of what is considered an illegal weapon. Trying to separate the tool from the weapon is a fools errand. Its been discussed ad nauseum for years, centuries even. A weapon is defined by design, by intent of use, and by law. Opinion is irrelevant no matter what the actual design intent is. If you attack somebody with a Boy Scout knife, stab them and take their wallet, you will be charged with assault with a deadly weapon and using a deadly weapon in the commission of a crime. Doesn't matter that its a folder with a 2" blade that was intended to be carried by 10 year old Boy Scouts to learn field craft skills and earn merit badges, in that case its considered no less a deadly weapon than a bowie knife with a 12" blade.

 

[JAM]

But whether you define it as a weapon by design or not has no bearing on what the banners will "allow" you to have. It doesn't matter to them. Is a small Sebenza a "weapon?" I'm sure most of you would say no. But there are jurisdictions and even countries where you can't carry anything you can open one-handed or anything with a locking blade. Denying it's a weapon does absolutely no good. You can not reason with them.