Are knives weapons, or are they tools?

[DocJD]

If you use a Montante Greatsword to cut up a pumpkin in your back yard, it means the Greatsword is a fruit knife.

I use a full sized Katana as a light duty "grass machete " / weed wacker .

My Cold Steel Tai Machete is really potentially a sword but I use it for yard work and trail clearing .

 

[CanadaKnifeGuy]

I do have some double-edged / sided daggers.

They are my spearfishing dive knives.

They are very specialized tools, used for braining, gutting and gilling fish. Also useful in case of entanglement.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

True. That ball peen hammer vs warhammer is an example of two objects on the extreme sides of the tool-weapon spectrum. I think, however, that we also need to acknowledge that there are some knives that could fall in the middle. The Becker BK9 for example is regarded as a good chopping tool. So is the ESEE Junglas. Could both be used for defense? Possibly. Arguably though, I would say most Becker and ESEE owners use their knives as tools.

We also have the examples of the khukuri and the karambit. Believe it or not, both “killer looking” blades are used as utility/farming implements in their respective cultures. Could they be used as weapons? With the right training, yes. Depending on factors like design, weight, and reach, some knives can function as more effective weapons than others. As you said, I wouldn’t bet my life on an Opinel in a hairy situation.

This has been more of a philosophical take than a legal take (none of this is legal advice!). If the knife laws in your area say that even your innocent looking Mora is a deadly weapon, then that just plain sucks. But don’t go to jail over it.

I agree and I think those blades fall into both classifications, I specifically put the Kukhri into the last classification of multi purpose tools, used both for utility and also fighting. Some knives are designed from the ground up to be only utility, and some knives are designed to be only a weapon.
Then you have some blades that are designed for fulfill both roles, then you have the interesting sub class of knives that were once designed for utility, until somebody found out how well they perform as a unique weapon type, and they were then slightly modified for fighting, so these are a kind of transitional class. The Japanese Kama sickle and European Scythe fall into this interesting category as well, when they were first improvised weapons used in a pinch. Then they were discovered to perform quite well in a niche fighting role, and later they were then re designed to be made slightly better as weapons.
The European war scythe is a nice example of this, it was a regular scythe, until it was adapted for battle, we actually find medieval treatise of war scythes being used and trained with. You will notice the war scythe is slightly different to the agriculture version as it was re designed.
So these tools went from being just utilitarian, then somebody discovered hey this works pretty good as an improvised weapon, then a smith and some experienced users made some changes and said lets make this slightly thicker, change the angle of this slightly and it was reborn as a weapon.

 

[BitingSarcasm]

I used my Cold Steel warhammer to do demolition on my lath and plaster walls. The hammer knocked the plaster down and the spike was great at levering off the laths. I still use it when I need to break something, and it lives in my shop where it serves as a pickaroon.

 

[JAM]

Just don’t call it a weapon from the start. That ensures that you, as an individual, are not supporting this banning weapons nonsense.

Not really. Don't fool yourself that YOU not calling it a weapon changes anything. When they act shocked at your 3" folder and you INSIST it's not a weapon that fazes their opinion not a bit. "That's a weapon! Why would you carry that dangerous thing, AGHHHH!!!" Sure, try to get the point across you use it for a tool to cut stuff. But of course it can be a weapon. So can a hammer. We're big boys and girls, we CAN HAVE weapons.

 

[DocJD]

Aliens ( from space , not illegals ) having only Hollywood horror movies to view , would think of chainsaws ...how do you figure ?

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7aTt4H9aTXFxUvgQ/giphy.gif

 

[JAM]

The bottom line is this, not one knife or firearm I have ever owned has been used to harm anyone. So, how are they weapons?

That argument will take us a long way, sure. "This is my 45 ACP, it's a tool I use to punch holes in paper at a distance." "Fine, leave it at home because you might hurt someone with it." The second amendment does not guarantee you the right to hunt, or poke holes in paper. It affirms your right to "bear arms," meaning carry weapons.

 

[Arathol]

Exactly, a warhammer is a weapon, and a ball peen hammer is a utility tool, and both are hammers.
Just like an opinel no 8 is a general purpose knife used for utilitarian needs, and a Fairbairn Sykes is a fighting knife made specifically for fighting, and they are both knives.
We are comparing one to the other to show how they differ, and to make a distinction between the two designs, because some people think either knives are all utility or knives are all weapons. When actually only some knives are weapons.

Yes but the war hammer is not really an actual hammer any more than a katana is a scout knife. Its a purpose built implement that has no use other than as a weapon, whereas the ball peen could be used as a weapon as well as for mundane other things. If you are trying to establish whether something is a weapon or tool you need to use examples that aren't at opposite ends of the spectrum. The USMC MK2 1219C2 combat knife for instance......tool or weapon? Designed to military specs for use in hand to hand fighting during WW2, but has been used for decades as a utility knife. So, tool or weapon, or both?
Any knife, being that the primary design intent and definition of a knife is to cut things, is or can be a weapon, but there are some with little utilitarian purpose that are designed exclusively to be a weapon. However, actual design intent means not so much in the end. Intent and circumstance of use is everything after the fact.....and why people can go to jail for possession of an illegal weapon when carrying a kitchen knife.

 

[Sergeua]

You argue that a Rondell, Trench knife, or an Italian Stiletto dagger is a utility tool? What utility are you using those for exactly?

I'm not walking around like Blade from vampire movie, but here is me with a Kabar looking pretty civil I believe. It's a nice fire poker. Mine permanently smells like some cooked meat/sausages.

 

[sabre cat]

..a warhammer is a weapon, and a ball peen hammer is a utility tool, and both are hammers..

Sorry, a war hammer is not a weapon until it is used as a weapon.

The designer and blacksmith may have created it to be used as a weapon but, until it is used as such, it is only a tool.

And, it is still a tool even when it is used as a weapon.

This concept that something is a weapon because of the intent of the designer or manufacturer is at the core of the stupidity that a tool has morals and intent to harm others. And, that ownership of said tool automatically means you have certain morals and intentions. It’s BS.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I'm not walking around like Blade from vampire movie, but here is me with a Kabar looking pretty civil I believe. It's a nice fire poker. Mine permanently smells like some cooked meat/sausages.

I have a KA-BAR 1271 fighter, and I have never used it for fighting once, but it was designed as a weapon.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Sorry, a war hammer is not a weapon until it is used as a weapon.

The designer and blacksmith may have created it to be used as a weapon but, until it is used as such, it is only a tool.

And, it is still a tool even when it is used as a weapon.

This concept that something is a weapon because of the intent of the designer or manufacturer is at the core of the stupidity that a tool has morals and intent to harm others. And, that ownership of said tool automatically means you have certain morals and intentions. It’s BS.

That is not correct, you are basically saying a Ford truck is not a ford truck until somebody has driven it, and if it just sits in a showroom it is not yet a ford truck. A weapon is still a weapon even if it isn't being used.

 

[Lesknife]

don’t think anyone said you were a criminal, but constitutional carry is only relevant if you’re talking about weapons.

Actually it is relevant because some law makers were trying to add in items they deemed to be a weapon. For instance my uncle was a carpenter, sheetrocker and painter. He had many different sizes of putty knives and edging knifes for doing that kind of work. One day he was pulled over by a city cop because he had some paint dripping down on his license plate partially covering it. When he opened the tailgate and topper lid to see what had spilled the cop saw the long edging knives. He was hauled in for having a knife over the legal limit. Once the DA saw what it was he had the cop drop the charges. It still cost him a lot but the cops ignorance caused a lot of problems. This is why I say it’s a bad idea to start questioning what defines a weapon because some people are ignorant of working tools and they don’t realize anything can be used to harm someone if a person is intent on causing harm.

 

[sabre cat]

That argument will take us a long way, sure. "This is my 45 ACP, it's a tool I use to punch holes in paper at a distance." "Fine, leave it at home because you might hurt someone with it." The second amendment does not guarantee you the right to hunt, or poke holes in paper. It affirms your right to "bear arms," meaning carry weapons.

I would agree with you about a 45 ACP but, that is not the issue.

And, by the way, the 2nd Amendment affirms your right to bear arms, not weapons. That is your interpretation.

 

[jstrange]

They can be either, or both.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Yes but the war hammer is not really an actual hammer any more than a katana is a scout knife. Its a purpose built implement that has no use other than as a weapon, whereas the ball peen could be used as a weapon as well as for mundane other things. If you are trying to establish whether something is a weapon or tool you need to use examples that aren't at opposite ends of the spectrum. The USMC MK2 1219C2 combat knife for instance......tool or weapon? Designed to military specs for use in hand to hand fighting during WW2, but has been used for decades as a utility knife. So, tool or weapon, or both?
Any knife, being that the primary design intent and definition of a knife is to cut things, is or can be a weapon, but there are some with little utilitarian purpose that are designed exclusively to be a weapon. However, actual design intent means not so much in the end. Intent and circumstance of use is everything after the fact.....and why people can go to jail for possession of an illegal weapon when carrying a kitchen knife.

A warhammer certainly is a hammer, it just isn't a utility hammer. A katana is a purpose built weapon yes, and so is a Fairbairs Sykes fighting knife, regardless if you can use it to peel an apple or not. Being able to use something as an improvised weapon does not make something a dedicated weapon. You can understand that a katana is a dedicated weapon designed for combat, so why can't you also understand that some knives are purpose built for combat as well and are not utilitarian tools.
The primary design and intent of a knife depends on what kind of knife it is, it's not that the Rondel dagger just so happens to work as an improvised weapon, it was made and designed as a weapon and that's what it is, the same as many other fighting knives.

 

[Sergeua]

I have a KA-BAR 1271 fighter, and I have never used it for fighting once, but it was designed as a weapon.

Here is buck 119 special hunting knife

You can argue it's a weapon... Sure
Reminds me of the Randall your were talking about or a Kabar.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Here is buck 119 special hunting knife

You can argue it's a weapon... Sure
Reminds me of the Randall your were talking about or a Kabar.

Oh I was talking about a Rondel dagger not a Randals adventure or ESEE knife. A rondel is a medieval knightly weapon used by the upper class of England and Europe, very similar to a bollock dagger. Used by knights and men at arms, typically a double edged fighting dagger with a round disc guard, where it gets its name rondel meaning round.

 

[Chronovore]

It is mightier than the sword, they say...

It certainly is. The pen in that context can forge destinies and determine fortunes. In the right hands, it can be a more direct weapon with more power than the button that launches a missile. Wars are waged and people are destroyed under the stroke of a pen.

To put the discussion here in another context...

 

[Londinium Armoury]

It certainly is. The pen in that context can forge destinies and determine fortunes. In the right hands, it can be a more direct weapon with more power than the button that launches a missile. Wars are waged and people are destroyed under the stroke of a pen.

To put the discussion here in another context...

Yes the man with the pen will command with his authority, and if you don't listen to him he will send men armed with actual weapons to deal with you.