Are modern slipjoints too small?

[Old Hunter]

I've got a friend named Howard that could have been the old man's brother. Howard carries a little watch pocket size "penknife" as he calls it. A teeny Victorinox classic. Howard is a old Texas oil field roughneck, and we talked pocket knives over lunch. He carries a tiny coin pocket knife because as he puts it, "If I go huntin, I carry a huntin knife. If I go fishin, I carry a fishin knife."

I remember when that mode of thinking was common. The pocket knife was not an all purpose EDC/survival/huntin/combat knife. It was a pocket knife, a small personal cutting tool for string, sharpening pencils, opening mail and such.

Howard's way of thinking is exactly how I view knives. I have quite a few that I have "collected" up simply because I like knives, but for my using purposes I carry a Medium knife (normally a 3-1/2" Stockman, but sometimes a Medium Jack or Whittler) and depend on fixed blades and sometimes a Folding Hunter, for fishing, hunting, and field purposes. OH

 

[Old Hunter]

Great fish! I could eat one now and you're right, the correct knife for the task

Thanks Bud, and they are tasty, one of my top favorite eating fish. In addition to the Buck 121 shown for cleaning fish, I could get by with a Medium Stockman for EDC, a Buck 118 for cleaning large game, and a 110 Folding Hunter to back them all up in case I lost or broke one. OH

 

[Misplaced Hillbilly]

I think you're right on with this observation.
I know we aren't supposed to talk about modern knives, but I think it's relevant to the conversation here.
If someone needs a larger knife that locks for "bigger jobs", the modern knife has many advantages over the big traditionals.
The biggest advantage is the pocket clip, which makes such a large knife so much easier to carry. Sorry if that upsets anybody.

I agree and disagree with you lol, there are big traditionals that fill that niche.

However I say its a limited market and the moderns are more accessible to the masses. As to the pocket clip I found an alternative that works for me.

 

[lambertiana]

Uh oh, I see we are back to the automatic double post - too many words. I will post an appropriate picture in place of my verbiage. The type of fish the Boy would have caught while fishing with the Old Man (and the right kind of knife to clean them). OH

What are those? They sure look good.

 

[Old Hunter]

L lambertiana They are delicious, Spotted Sea Trout (locally known as “Specks”). OH

 

[Fisher1573]

If a 4" folder and a sheath knife was good enough for a great outdoorsman like Kephart, surely a 2-3" folder and a 4" sheath knife is good enough for me. Dad did everything with a Case Trapper (yellow CV). Short of fighting to the death, I don't think we really need larger knives. It's preference. I like to be impressed by small knives and what they can do. I live in a pretty rural spot and I love to carry smaller knives than my friends and do the same tasks. Sometimes I do have to work harder at it though. My favorite traditional patterns are the peanut, trapper, and stockman. The latter two in various sizes of course. My peanut handles everything my Buck 110's do. I've never cleaned a deer with it, I'm sure it could.....but I really wouldn't want to.........or I didn't......when I started typing......

 

[22-rimfire]

.....As for the change in knife carry or rather, non carry, it is down to an implanted perception that a knife is primarily a weapon, the fact that most people have to work in corporate sedentary jobs that are rigidly controlled and monitored- hence knife carry is frequently forbidden. Rise in so called gang culture where knife carry is clearly connected to intimidation which the media fans by demonising any type of knife use. Paradoxically, Traditonals ought to be making a comeback as they are far less menacing than large Modern knives in 'combat' finishes, but a mind-set has developed amongst the populace that knives are odd, sinister and are unnecessary , a toxic response unfortunately.

Some scattered thoughts.....Traditional knives are making a slow comeback, but I think the majority are purchased by more "seasoned" people other than SAKs. There have been gangs in one form or another for 100's of years. In the middle ages, the nobles had their own security (just like today) and their use was sanctioned by society. It is one of the reasons the peasants rose up against the noble class. It is in part why the US Constitution is what it is when it was created. Amazing document considering history.

For the most part, it is the urbanization and feminization of society here and abroad that has impacted knife carry and use has defined knife size preferences. The change was gradual. People in urban areas often view knives as weapons first. Modern knives tend to be larger than traditional knives. I don't know why actually. Today knife carry is still pretty common (just not extremely common) and certainly not like it was 75 years ago. Kids or young people often carried larger knives. They did it because they could or liked the idea of being a bit of a rebel. They would claim it is for self defense, but for most that is a shallow argument.

Through the efforts of Knife Rights, many states have removed most knife restrictions that many of us grew up with. I can carry any size knife I want. But I carry a knife that was legal when there were blade length restrictions, because I have no need for a larger knife (even to cut an apple). But knives can get too small to be widely useful from my point of view. Where that break point is depends on your use and your daily routines.

Barring a major society upheaval, I don't think anything is going to change in terms of choosing a knife for day to day use or no knife at all.

People in what we call third world countries still carry and appreciate a knife.

 

[22-rimfire]

The reason kids can't carry knives into schools is that they will use them on each other and on teachers/staff. I've taught in schools where pencils are even a concern. Some of my students had already seen the inside of a "detention" center for violence. I have had students who have arrested for robbery, rape, and selling dope. Last year I was assaulted by a student I didn't even know. The sky opened up and he was expelled out of district for good. In California! Wow! I teach 6th grade.

I know this stuff and I just wonder WHY this has happened over time? What changed? Family changed. It has and it will be our downfall as many kids today have little conscious and their judgement of right and wrong is purely what will get them thrown in jail or not (if they are caught).

 

[Carboniferous]

The other day I was looking for information about historical seax knives and found this: http://www.darkcompany.ca/articles/knives.php with some quite interesting findings of knives 1000 years ago.

'Anglo-Scandinavian Ironwork' charts out the individual knives in graphs that describe a number of physical characteristics. There are definite spikes when grouping the found knives by blade length and width:

• In terms of blade length, there is a clear preference for blades between 60 - 70 mm ( 2 3/8 to 2 3/4"). The majority of the samples fall in a range between 50 - 80 mm (2 to 3 1/4")
• In terms of blade width, there is a clear preference for blades between 12 - 13 mm (roughly 1/2"). The majority of the samples fall in a range between 10 to 16 mm ( roughly 3/8 to 3/4")
• It should be noted however that of the 211 knives described, only 34 are some variation on the seax pattern. From the objects depicted in the scale drawings, it would appear that these seax blades primarily form the majority of the larger blades in the collection. Two are roughly 140 cm (5 3/4") and one at 20 cm (8") blade length. The width of these particular blades is roughly + 25 mm (over 1"). It should be noted that Ottaway states in the text : "Knives as long as 2756, 2799 and 2808 are unusual..."

I'm not sure it's the case that the kinds of tasks knives were used for before modern industrialization necessitated a longer blade. For processing wood people had axes, and the only other time a longer blade is useful that I can think of is combat. I wonder if larger blades being common ~100 years ago (if that's even the case, and I'm not sure it is) is actually a result of people using their knives *less* than they did further back. If you carry a knife primarily as a weapon then wanting a very large blade makes sense. Otherwise I'm not really sure it does. Anything a big blade is more suited for is better done with a fixed blade, ESPECIALLY if your life depends on it. And I'd argue anything you don't need a big blade for is better done with a smaller blade.

Edit: Food prep is an obvious use-case I somehow forgot about where a larger blade is (at least sometimes) more useful. Finally made it through the thread and manufacturing precision would also maybe explain larger folding knives before modern industrialization even if smaller knives were more popular for strictly utilitarian purposes (if smaller knives actually were more popular for strictly utilitarian purposes, not 100% sure they were), good point.

 

[Old Hunter]

I just enjoyed reading back through this thread. My views are the same and the views expressed by others were pretty well thought out. OH

 

[pholder]

Old days, economic hardship, job specific , labor intensive workers. Current days, disposable income, technology, mall ninjas

 

[Alex.Y.]

As this thread was resurrected anyway (and I glad it did because it was so interesting reading it), I can humbly add that people seem to became taller each generation, hence have bigger hands. Just look at old uniforms at your local museum, not to mention knight's armor - those are almost for kids by modern measures. So maybe copies of old patterns feel small just because they were designed for the people of their time, not for us.

 

[chevyrulez1]

Old days, economic hardship, job specific , labor intensive workers. Current days, disposable income, technology, mall ninjas

Now that all the malls are closing down, where are all the ninjas going to go !?
I realize this was an older thread but a great read. I think back to my Grandfather who lived to be 96, he died back in the 80’s, so he was born in the late 1800’s in rural Virginia (his father a civil war vet) I was an Air Force brat so I didn’t get to see him much when I was little.
I remember going to visit him and he had a brass spittoon in his room and would pull out a small slip joint (I wish I had known the patterns back then, don’t know if it was a small Jack, peanut, small stockman or Congress but it was something along those lines) He would take that small pocket knife out and cut a bit of tobacco plug off and start chewing it while he told stories. I would give anything for the chance to talk to him again now

Anyway, a small slip joint seemed to be enough for him and I find it is still enough for me today 99% of the time

 

[afishhunter]

The reason kids can't carry knives into schools is that they will use them on each other and on teachers/staff.

Sad/disgusting that "society" or "civilization" has digressed so far and so rapidly.

When I was in school (1960~1974 school years) starting the first or second grade, it was taken for granted by the school district, school administrators, teachers, and I suppose law enforcement, that all the boys had at least one pocketknife in their pocket, and (I'm guessing) 97% of the girls had a pocketknife and/or a paring knife (in a cereal box cardboard sheath) and/or pointed scissors in their purse. (I believe all the girls I knew did. No one asked, since it was considered "rude" to do so.

For "Show & Tell" during grades 1 to 3 inclusive, students brought in the "normal" things like stamp and baseball card collections, pet birds and spiders, fishing rods and reels, Boy/Cub/Girl Scout stuff.
Quite a few of us (and not just the boys) brought in our (not our parent's/grandparent's) .22 rimfire rifle (or .410/28/20 guage) shotgun starting at age six or seven. BB/Pellet guns were also popular.
A few of my classmates had a .22 revolver they brought in for show & tell.

Guess what? No one raised an eyebrow when a 1st to 3rd grader brought a knife or gun to school!
Oor when high schooler's who hunted had a shotgun and/or bow for deer hunting, or a shotgun and/or .22 rifle for upland game in the rear window of their pickup or the rear side window of their Blazer/Bronco/Scout, or station wagon. Others had their hunting arms in the trunk of their car.)
When there was a fight at school, no one pulled a knife or went to get their gun or bow.
Never had a school shooting or stabbing.
Schools weren't virtual prisons then, enclosed by high fences topped with barbwire/razor wire, all the doors were unlocked during school hours. The buildings, grounds, and parking lots weren't patrolled by armed security guards. There were no metal detectors and armed security checking ID's and for weapons at all the entrances, either.

Those in High School even had "Open Campus" able to leave during the periods they didn't have a class, returning for their later class(es) if any, if they didn't want to go to the school library to study, or go to the commons to hang with friends, snack, and play cards. Some (with the instructor's permission) spent extra time in whatever vocational shop class they were taking (carpentry, auto mechanics, welding, machine shop, and drafting) putting in extra time when the lower/starting classes were in session, working on their own projects, and helping teach the younger students, during their free period(s) Oh, If you were in a wood, auto mechanics, welding, or machine shop class part of the unofficial dress code for that class was a Buck 110 or two blade slipjoint folding hunter, or a Puma lockback be on your belt.

The official dress code for shop students (excluding drafting) was safety glasses, short sleeve shirts, long pants or bib overalls, and steel toe safety boots or shoes are required. Along with necessary for the class safety equipment, such as welders gloves, welding cap, welding helmet, and cutting goggles, when engaged in those activities. A leather shop apron was never frowned upon, but wasn't required. (good thing. those were and are not inexpensive.)
No loose neckties or bolo/string ties. Clip-on neckties (if they got caught in a rotating part it would be ripped off - not choke the wearer to death before the machine could be shut down or the tie cut) and bowties were allowed

Oh, none of the schools I attended had uniforms.
The dress code was pretty much "No nudity. Shirt/pants or shorts and shoes (Blouse or halter top, pants/shorts or dress or skirt and shoes for the girls) required."
All of the schools I attended were non-segregated. Everyone got along, no matter what color someones shell happened to be.
I attended school in Iowa, graduated in '74
.
My daughter attended school in South West Missouri. Her experiences were like mine. No one cared what shell color someone had. (my daughter is "mixed race")
One of the required courses to graduate at her school for both the guys and girls was the NRA Hunter Safety Course!
She graduated in '95 or '96.
Rifles, shotguns, and archery equipment in the windows of student's vehicles didn't raise eyebrows in Missouri, either.

I won't give my opinion on why civilization has fallen so far in so little time. This forum isn't the place for that discussion.

 

[Alex.Y.]

Sad/disgusting that "society" or "civilization" has digressed so far and so rapidly.

When I was in school (1960~1974 school years) starting the first or second grade, it was taken for granted by the school district, school administrators, teachers, and I suppose law enforcement, that all the boys had at least one pocketknife in their pocket, and (I'm guessing) 97% of the girls had a pocketknife and/or a paring knife (in a cereal box cardboard sheath) and/or pointed scissors in their purse. (I believe all the girls I knew did. No one asked, since it was considered "rude" to do so.

For "Show & Tell" during grades 1 to 3 inclusive, students brought in the "normal" things like stamp and baseball card collections, pet birds and spiders, fishing rods and reels, Boy/Cub/Girl Scout stuff.
Quite a few of us (and not just the boys) brought in our (not our parent's/grandparent's) .22 rimfire rifle (or .410/28/20 guage) shotgun starting at age six or seven. BB/Pellet guns were also popular.
A few of my classmates had a .22 revolver they brought in for show & tell.

Guess what? No one raised an eyebrow when a 1st to 3rd grader brought a knife or gun to school!
Oor when high schooler's who hunted had a shotgun and/or bow for deer hunting, or a shotgun and/or .22 rifle for upland game in the rear window of their pickup or the rear side window of their Blazer/Bronco/Scout, or station wagon. Others had their hunting arms in the trunk of their car.)
When there was a fight at school, no one pulled a knife or went to get their gun or bow.
Never had a school shooting or stabbing.
Schools weren't virtual prisons then, enclosed by high fences topped with barbwire/razor wire, all the doors were unlocked during school hours. The buildings, grounds, and parking lots weren't patrolled by armed security guards. There were no metal detectors and armed security checking ID's and for weapons at all the entrances, either.

Those in High School even had "Open Campus" able to leave during the periods they didn't have a class, returning for their later class(es) if any, if they didn't want to go to the school library to study, or go to the commons to hang with friends, snack, and play cards. Some (with the instructor's permission) spent extra time in whatever vocational shop class they were taking (carpentry, auto mechanics, welding, machine shop, and drafting) putting in extra time when the lower/starting classes were in session, working on their own projects, and helping teach the younger students, during their free period(s) Oh, If you were in a wood, auto mechanics, welding, or machine shop class part of the unofficial dress code for that class was a Buck 110 or two blade slipjoint folding hunter, or a Puma lockback be on your belt.

The official dress code for shop students (excluding drafting) was safety glasses, short sleeve shirts, long pants or bib overalls, and steel toe safety boots or shoes are required. Along with necessary for the class safety equipment, such as welders gloves, welding cap, welding helmet, and cutting goggles, when engaged in those activities. A leather shop apron was never frowned upon, but wasn't required. (good thing. those were and are not inexpensive.)
No loose neckties or bolo/string ties. Clip-on neckties (if they got caught in a rotating part it would be ripped off - not choke the wearer to death before the machine could be shut down or the tie cut) and bowties were allowed

Oh, none of the schools I attended had uniforms.
The dress code was pretty much "No nudity. Shirt/pants or shorts and shoes (Blouse or halter top, pants/shorts or dress or skirt and shoes for the girls) required."
All of the schools I attended were non-segregated. Everyone got along, no matter what color someones shell happened to be.
I attended school in Iowa, graduated in '74
.
My daughter attended school in South West Missouri. Her experiences were like mine. No one cared what shell color someone had. (my daughter is "mixed race")
One of the required courses to graduate at her school for both the guys and girls was the NRA Hunter Safety Course!
She graduated in '95 or '96.
Rifles, shotguns, and archery equipment in the windows of student's vehicles didn't raise eyebrows in Missouri, either.

I won't give my opinion on why civilization has fallen so far in so little time. This forum isn't the place for that discussion.

Thank you for your thoughts, sir, very interesting. If you're up to post more thoughts on a subject in some non-knife discussion subforum, I'll gladly follow.

 

[Will Power]

In conclusion (mine ) no, current traditionals are not too small they're varied and that's the big draw. One of the things I dislike about Moderns is they're so large, finding a compact one is not easy, plus they all look very similar to me...they clearly have their virtues though. Multi-blades tend to be more useful on a compact frame so that could be a reason plus large single bladed knives can be heavy. There's been a 'downsizing' yes but at the same time the niche for large knives has mainly been filled by Moderns. If you look at old French catalogues, the Laguiole was clearly more popular as a large size in former times, 13cm common and even 17 or 18cm ( 7") These days it's more like a 10-11cm knife. Tastes change, quality shouldn't.

 

[kamagong]

I won't comment on whether modern slipjoints are too small. But this past year I've become reacquainted with the the laguiole, with particular attention paid to the 12cm offerings. I don't know what the right size for a slipjoint is, but I will say that using a 12cm laguiole is a pleasure.

 

[Will Power]

kamagong You'll be getting one of those 18cm ones made soon Christian

 

[Lesknife]

From what I know in my family’s history and the local history of the old timers back in the 1880s- 1960s when many/ most people used all kinds of knives and carried some kind of pocket knife. Our local hardware store owner who was a third generation owned business, told me that the personal preference varied a lot from small one inch blade to larger 4 inch blade as well as single and multi blade. But the most popular seemed to settle on two blade jack knives in the 3 inch blade size.

My dad told me that his uncles liked large size knives in the 3.5-4 inch range but grandpa liked a mid sized 2.5-3 inch blade stockman or jack. They used their knives for all kinds of tasks including skinning and field dressing large game. I can understand that on ranches and farms a large knife would sometimes be necessary where in a city setting it might not be.

Im sure that size and patterns were just as much a personal preference back then as it is today and the catalogs back then had a lot more selections than we have today.

 

[Hashishiin]

They are absolutely too small! At 7ft1 tall, I’m biased though. If I could find a 9 inch long sodbuster or trapper pattern, that’s all I’d carry.

The Opinel no. 13 or Douk-Douk Le Giant would be perfect for you - an Espada XL for a more civilized age. Cutting giant cheese... I don't know how they'd mail it to you up in your beanstalk though, my man.
________

As somebody who was more recently in a school, graduated in '14, I would say that we focus more on the bad apples than before. I knew who the, like, 5-7 kids out of a 2k student body were trouble, fought for fun, sold and used serious dope, stole. It was like they made the rules based around those kids, instead of the vast majority of students.

You could issue a SAK to every single kid and there'd be no problems, even among those kids, they would rather just slack off and vandalize and steal than really actively fight, and we had no metal detectors, so they could have been carrying guns every day if they'd wanted, I could have also carried a SAK every day if I wanted (though it would be taken very seriously if a, not teacher, but member of administration, saw it - in reality, the teachers would show way more discretion than you would expect, and the ones who didn't, you knew to be careful around if doing something that was "all right" but technically against school rules).

I remember the one/two times anybody was attacked over my four years - there was very little fighting and it all was done fairly/"safely" - they were gone from the school. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of the students unknowingly had items that were "weapons", as scissors, X-Acto knives and that sort of thing were not an uncommon sight at all. I used to bring in a sewing kit, scissors, needles and all, to sew heavy-metal patches on a cut-off vest during Home Ect.