Are modern slipjoints too small?

[eisman]

The point of my one question was not that current manufacture traditional patterns are to small to use, that's obviously not so. But where have the larger folding knives gone? Modern patterns sell millions annually of folding knives with blades in excess of 4". I can count on one hand the number of traditional style folders that fall into that.

Look close at the picture from the wreck of the Arabia. If the Barlow's shown are 3.5" closed (and I think that's actually conservative) then the majority of those knives are over 4", and many exceed 5" closed. There are some Congress patterns there that exceed 4". Who makes a "Jumbo" Jack like you can see there? Is there no longer a market for those, or have we all just gone over to the dark side and tucked a CRKT in our pockets?

Will the lack of larger folding knives in traditional patterns help to take these patterns into obscurity or a very nitch market as the auto-loading shotgun did to the SxS?

The last large pattern traditional I can recall was Charlie's "Black Jack". That issue was so limited I expect the majority went into collections and will never get carried. But why didn't GEC make another run of 2-3000 along the same lines? (I know, they rarely make any single run near that number, but bear with me on this.) Is the only market for a traditional folding Jack with a blade over 4" that of a Safe Queen?

I've carried a Case "Back Pocket". I liked it. But I quit carrying it because it really needed a small pen secondary to fit my use. But the only way I can get that is to go custom, or be lucky enough to find a usable knife made more than 50 years ago. To me, that's sad.

 

[black mamba]

I just recently picked up this Viper Key @ 4.1" closed. It's a modern slipjoint, but so thin and so light and with superb M390 stainless.
Kind of what you are talking about, cbach8tw.

 

[jackknife]

I think you hit it right, that the modern need of a large slipjoint has faded because the tasks at hand have changed, therefore a smaller slipjoint meets the different needs of today. The change from rural to more of a suburban culture has changed from 100 years ago. There are still rural areas where a larger slipjoint has it place, farm and hunting, but the majority of Americans are not growing up on a farm or in the country. Back then, it was expected that most boys would have a pocket knife on them. I do like a smaller slipjoint, but I also like a good sized traditional folder that has a little heft to it.

There is something I do not understand. Yes, there was a great migration from rural to urban/suburban. Yes, there was not as much need of a large knife in the city. So the culture changed a bit.

BUT...what I don't get is, how we got to the no knife at all thing????

In the city, there are still boxes to open, string to cut, mail to open, and now the accursed plastic blister packages that need a sharp knife or the claws of a saber tooth tiger to open. Yet, most people now don't even bother to carry any knife at all. Growing up in the 1950's, everyone had a knife. If it wasn't an army-navy surplus store TL-29 or M-I-L knife, it was a scout knife by a major company or at least a Camp King. Or even one of those little sheet metal handle TRIM things that were on the cardboard stand up display at the five and dime store. Every school boy had a pocket knife to sharpen the pencils with because the school system supplied wall mounted sharpeners were junk that fell apart by November.

Now its not just suspension, but expulsion for a kid to have a knife on him. They call it zero tolerance. Most adults seem to be on board with it. Out in Mission Viejo California at my granddaughters baseball reams game, one father was asking around if anyone had a knife? His daughter has one of those Indian braclets on with he rawhide string, and the knot was so set by the few weeks she had worn it, getting wet and dried again, it was impossible to untie. Nobody had a knife except me, the out of state visitor.

Our pull open/pop top world has become very sheltered.

 

[JohnDF]

how we got to the no knife at all thing????

I blame the "weapon" knives, like the Buck 110.
It changed people's perception of what a knife was being carried for.
So today, adults remember the Buck 110 "weapon" thing, and lump all pocket knives into the same category.

 

[cbach8tw]

I blame the "weapon" knives, like the Buck 110.
It changed people's perception of what a knife was being carried for.
So today, adults remember the Buck 110 "weapon" thing, and lump all pocket knives into the same category.

I think it is a move from one type of society to another, less rural. I do not say the 110 weapon thing is not a contributing factor, but I think the switchblade fear from the 50s had more to do with the kinds of knife laws we see on the books for the last 50 plus years, and the reduction of larger slipjoints and lockbacks in traditional patterns. Maybe the Rebel Without a Cause affect, where criminals are the ones who needed knives. Fear has a way of making good intentions go too far, legislation is not immune from it. Laws to protect us from ourselves. (Sorry, not to get too political, just cause and affect). It has taken the dogged efforts of organizations to get the switchblade laws amended or struck down that has allowed a comeback for larger knives....larger traditional included. GEC has filled a niche in the market for traditional knives. Does the GEC #23 qualify as a larger tradional pattern? The Boker two bladed trapper I have I consider a larger traditional folder.

 

[JohnDF]

Maybe the Rebel Without a Cause affect, where criminals are the ones who needed knives.

Also a strong possibility, nice addition.

 

[Lansky1]

I agree knife size has boiled down over the years to a rural vs urban thing. I work in an office in NJ that there's not a single guy I work with that carries any kind of a pocket knife. I grew up in a more rural area and everybody I grew up with still carries a pocket knife. Now I work in an office, so I can't carry anything that prints ... so I Iimit myself to single spring thin profile knives most of the time (6107's, 6120's, opposite ended 62087's, even 06247PEN's sometimes) .... but for weekend carry, out come the trappers, ratcliffe's and larger stockmans.

 

[Will Power]

With regard to the Arabia knives, I'd just like to get my hands on one of those barky Stag handled beauties I wonder if a catalogue is available describing all the knives and makers?

As for the change in knife carry or rather, non carry, it is down to an implanted perception that a knife is primarily a weapon, the fact that most people have to work in corporate sedentary jobs that are rigidly controlled and monitored- hence knife carry is frequently forbidden. Rise in so called gang culture where knife carry is clearly connected to intimidation which the media fans by demonising any type of knife use. Paradoxically, Traditonals ought to be making a comeback as they are far less menacing than large Modern knives in 'combat' finishes, but a mind-set has developed amongst the populace that knives are odd, sinister and are unnecessary , a toxic response unfortunately. Some years back, a couple of female colleagues who were sitting in my office gasped when I took out a small CASE Penknife and reached for an apple out of the bowl. " Why do you keep a knife in your pocket???" " To cut up apple snacks, I dislike eating apples whole" I replied "Would you like a slice or would you prefer passing the apple round for a bite?" To give them credit they started laughing at that and readily took a piece, but I could see they thought it very weird that somebody would have a knife about them....That's what it's come to

 

[lambertiana]

With regard to the Arabia knives, I'd just like to get my hands on one of those barky Stag handled beauties I wonder if a catalogue is available describing all the knives and makers?

As for the change in knife carry or rather, non carry, it is down to an implanted perception that a knife is primarily a weapon, the fact that most people have to work in corporate sedentary jobs that are rigidly controlled and monitored- hence knife carry is frequently forbidden. Rise in so called gang culture where knife carry is clearly connected to intimidation which the media fans by demonising any type of knife use. Paradoxically, Traditonals ought to be making a comeback as they are far less menacing than large Modern knives in 'combat' finishes, but a mind-set has developed amongst the populace that knives are odd, sinister and are unnecessary , a toxic response unfortunately. Some years back, a couple of female colleagues who were sitting in my office gasped when I took out a small CASE Penknife and reached for an apple out of the bowl. " Why do you keep a knife in your pocket???" " To cut up apple snacks, I dislike eating apples whole" I replied "Would you like a slice or would you prefer passing the apple round for a bite?" To give them credit they started laughing at that and readily took a piece, but I could see they thought it very weird that somebody would have a knife about them....That's what it's come to

I have had similar experiences. Once at work I had some figs from my tree and a girl there wanted to try one. I pulled out a knife and cut one in half. She reacted with shock, asking why I would carry a knife. I was thinking that I had just demonstrated a reason to do so.

At another job a woman twice complained to our corporate office that I carried a knife. Yet when she needed a box opened she asked me to do it.

 

[Camillus]

J jackknife is correct. There is a clear need for knives, or blades, in a modern urban environment. Some might say more need for them, given the range of activities carried out. Urbanisation alone isn’t the answer. The decline in knife carry is probably best explained by other factors. But the decline in knife carry is not the same question as the OP asked.

Then you have the knife size question posed by the OP. Why are their so few large traditionals of comparable size to the large modern folders?

My take on it - A) I don’t think traditional EDC folders were typically very large. The old knife catalogues are the single best source of truth here, the more popular knives are clearly singled out and are about 3.5” B) because modern materials (such as plastic handles) allowed a knife to have a much larger blade while still being a manageable weight. That appealed to some people and so modern folders come in a larger variety of sizes.

And then there is the next question, of people that purchase an oversized modern folder, how many carry one? Aside from people in armed forces, and those who want to think they are, I think there are a lot that get admired and carried for a day or two then quietly moved to a drawer or bedside table.

 

[cudgee]

At another job a woman twice complained to our corporate office that I carried a knife. Yet when she needed a box opened she asked me to do it.

I have been following this with great interest, some very pertinent points have and are being made. In modern society,knives are seen as offensive, we have become a nearly completely urban society. 120 years ago over here, 80% of the population lived in rural areas, now more than 80% live in the capital cities. Now i realize the USA is different country, but from what i have seen and read about, a lot of your small rural cities have all but disappeared, same as here. The newer generation, are completely different from my generation and my parents and grandparents generation, they not only find knives offensive, but see no reason to ever carry one, that is why i highlighted lambertina's post, it is just so relevant. People now are of a throw society, they do not fix things, firstly because they can't and secondly because they see on need, they just get a new one. Give me 1000 kids, and i reckon you would struggle to get 20 that would be able to fix a puncture on there bike that possibly cost $1000's, now you just replace the tube, and most have to go to a bike shop to have this done. When i started my working life, i worked in the garment - fabric trade, we had an old Jewish customer who was a multi-millionaire, when being a millionaire meant you were wealthy, a very smart business man and a thorough gentleman. I remember him telling me, the key to business success and making money is give the customer what they want, not what you think they want or want you want to try and force upon them. Most people that carry traditionals are of the older generation, not all but most, i would like to see the average mean age of members of the forum, so in my case, i do not want a large/larger knife any more, i just want a 31/4-31/2 inch in my pocket, anything else just feels too big. Now knife companies are in the business of making money, hence giving the customer what they want, a recent example, the GEC #33 was seen as a fill in knife by many, it was gone within seconds on most drops. It has nothing but good reports not only of it's quality and finish, but how good it is in the hand, i just think that the ageing knife carrier just want's a smaller knife, to use and sit comfortably in the pocket, and probably to not be carrying an illegal weapon, and if they do pull it out, not offend anyone. I used to carry larger style knives, not anymore, i just like a smaller traditional as i have gotten older. Just my thoughts ladies and gentleman. Hope you all have a good and safe week.

 

[Ray5118]

So now we are on, What happened to carrying a useful knife in your pocket?

I see a number of reasons for the practise of knife carry declining

1) Culturally, the knives are perceived as not needed.for daily life. That one really confuses me.

2) Social, knives are perceived as a weapons and not a handy tool. Again confusing, but I have given up educating non believers.

3) Institutionally, knives are prohibited in a number of places/ bldgs that people may frequent. You can add knife Laws on carry and blade length here.

In summary we may just be the last of generations who feel that putting on a pair pants isn't complete without knife in the pocket.

 

[CelloDan]

I carry a pocket knife because it brings me joy. That is basically it.

I can’t honestly say that I need to carry a knife in my pockets on a daily basis. There is many days that go by that I don’t use my pocket knife.
On other days it does come handy however the knives in the kitchen, my shop or the glove compartment in the car are readily available as well.

That’s why I prefer smaller knives to EDC,... easier to carry for the same amount of joy

 

[Prester John]

I blame the "weapon" knives, like the Buck 110.
It changed people's perception of what a knife was being carried for.
So today, adults remember the Buck 110 "weapon" thing, and lump all pocket knives into the same category.

Hey, John, the 110 is a hunting knife. Blame the one-hand-opening "tactical" knives that became popular in the 1980's. The 110 rocks! (See, I can talk like a youngster.) Then again, I do like switchblades.

 

[Prester John]

I've carried small knives most of my life. My father carried a small pen knife--probably 3" or so, so that's probably why I carried a small knife. But the last couple of years I have taken to larger knives: 4 1/8" trappers, No. 8 Opinel (maybe 4 1/4"), 12 cm (4 3/4") Laguiole, etc. The larger knife is so much more useful. My stockman Buck 301 (3 7/8") came in handy yesterday to cut my chicken fried steak when the restaurant brought me a stupid plastic knife. That's about the smallest size I like to carry now. Couldn't cut my steak with a Victorinox Classic, like I used to carry. Not efficiently, anyway.

It's a shame our younger generation is so anti-knife. But I don't want to get political here.

 

[GaiusJulius]

Big folding knives are less practical day to day, and that’s as true now as it was then. If you need a big knife you probably need a fixed blade, or an axe, or a machete. All of which would not be lacking on the typical rural farmstead. They lived different lives than we do, but nothing about farming, gardening, or hunting was fundamentally different back then.

If you need a folding knife, almost by definition you want it to be conveniently portable, small, lightweight, and good for the more diminutive cutting tasks you might face when not carrying your fixed blade, like opening a package or the mail, or a bag of flour or seed, or cutting something relatively small that needs to be cut, or whittling a piece of wood into something useful or ornamental. I’ve almost never seen a task aside from food prep in the kitchen or eating, that couldn’t be adequately handled by a 2-3” blade. Any bigger and the lack of locking starts to be a real liability, due to the easier leverage to close a larger blade. Add a lock and your knife is now (until the mid 20th century) in the realm of an expensive gentleman’s toy rather than a cheap and practical tool for the peasant or frontiersman.

 

[jackknife]

Hey, John, the 110 is a hunting knife. Blame the one-hand-opening "tactical" knives that became popular in the 1980's. The 110 rocks! (See, I can talk like a youngster.) Then again, I do like switchblades.

No, actually the Buck 110 has its share of infamy. Aside from its display as the murder weapons in the Mason cult murders, with pictures in the new magazines, it was openly advertised in Iron Horse magazine as the "Official Bikers knife" and all the macho strutting bikers with the black pouch in the belt didn't help matters any. They took over with the Buck 110 what James Dean did for switchblades.

More harmful was the amount of punks that used them in bar fights, and parking lot brawls. Add in Hollywood using the iconic and distinctive looks in many movies of someone getting sliced and diced with one and public perception was pretty complete.

 

[Prester John]

No, actually the Buck 110 has its share of infamy. Aside from its display as the murder weapons in the Mason cult murders, with pictures in the new magazines, it was openly advertised in Iron Horse magazine as the "Official Bikers knife" and all the macho strutting bikers with the black pouch in the belt didn't help matters any. They took over with the Buck 110 what James Dean did for switchblades.

More harmful was the amount of punks that used them in bar fights, and parking lot brawls. Add in Hollywood using the iconic and distinctive looks in many movies of someone getting sliced and diced with one and public perception was pretty complete.

I still love the Buck 110. Always been a hunting knife to me. I have been in the criminal law profession for about 30 years, both as a prosecutor and defense attorney. Never had a case where the Buck 110 was used as a weapon. And I have handled a lot of murder, aggravated assault, and aggravated robbery cases. In fact, most knife crimes around here are committed with large fixed blade kitchen knives. Don't know about other parts of the country.

 

[sitflyer]

No, actually the Buck 110 has its share of infamy. Aside from its display as the murder weapons in the Mason cult murders, with pictures in the new magazines, it was openly advertised in Iron Horse magazine as the "Official Bikers knife" and all the macho strutting bikers with the black pouch in the belt didn't help matters any. They took over with the Buck 110 what James Dean did for switchblades.

More harmful was the amount of punks that used them in bar fights, and parking lot brawls. Add in Hollywood using the iconic and distinctive looks in many movies of someone getting sliced and diced with one and public perception was pretty complete.

That doesn't make the tool the villain, it is a reflection on the society and the media's villaization of the 110, the same can be said for the Buck 119, it is routinely used as a press stand in for almost any knife crime, because...it looks sinister to uninformed folks.. yet both of these knives have been used by hunters and tradesman for decades with and those folks swear by them. Good to see you still at your taking a swing at Bucks iconic products at any turn available though, some things never change...

 

[Danke42]

I would suspect knives got smaller because knifemakers wanted to demonstrate they'd mastered their craft.

Then it became normal routine of someone making a small functional knife & another making seeing that and wanting to do the same to showcase their talent.