Are new makers held to a higher standard?

[R.W.Clark]

I am by no means truely a newbe maker. I am pushing ten years since I built my first knife. However, I am new to pushing my product onto the open market.

What I find disturbing is that I have been brought to call over details that many collectors seem to ignore with the "old timers". I have several customers who seem to feel that I can do no wrong. They are to the point of bringing other makers work to me to "clean up". I have worked on WH's, Ken Mcfalls, and many many other WELL known makers. I leave out some names because they are friends of mine.

The most recent is a custom Akuchi from Watnabi (sp?). This was a custom order that my customer recieved just a few days ago. First thing he did was call to meet with me and discuss fixing a few things.

Before I go into detail let me say this. I always explain that it is a handmade knife and as such should not be expected to have computor tolerences. I also let them know that my working on it may hurt any returns to the maker. And that the best way to go is to return it to the maker and have the problem fixed by him. Never the less they still ask me to do the job.

Well, if I put out grinds like this I would not last very long as a custom knife maker. A simple roll over review clearly shows, to even an untrained eye, that the grinds are all off. The plunges do not match at all and the grinds themselves are a differant hights.

I have smoothed finishes, buffed out waves and orange peel, filled voids in spacer material, replaced bolsters, flushed out pins, evened plunges and grinds, reshaped handles and on and on.

I have also spent many hours at knife shows looking over handmade knives. It seems that most of the problems come from the "top" makers.

Why is it they get a free pass on their name alone and new guys get their work passed over for flaws that are less than that of the big names.

Makes no sense to me at all. What do you guys think?

 

[Brett Bennett]

R.W.,

Don't take this they wrong way, but I am curious as to why you would fix these knives and why the customers would pay you to fix them. As a maker, I don't fix other peoples' mistakes regardless of my relationship with the owner. As a (sometimes) customer, I no longer buy knives without at least having seen the maker's work in person.
I think alot of people are given a pass on fit and finish, and they are not all big names.
Let the games begin.

Brett

 

[R Dockrell]

R.W.
I beleive I am in about the same place as you but I refuse to work on other peoples knives as a matter of principle. I will not even smooth out the rough spots on factory knives.
I have been in the "business" for only about 4 years but have been making knives for about 10. I do not have the means, time wise or financually to travel to knife showes, so I do local gun and sportsman showes.
I have seen the work of some of the name makers first hand. Most of it I am in awe with, but I beleive my work is very close to some but at 1/2 the price. Some of there work on the other hand leaves me wondering. My wife who is my Q.C. can pick up peices at showes and find outragious defects in F&F with just a quick glance, not the 10 min inspection she gives each peice I make, and beleive me she does point out my errors to me.
I am only a part time maker and Kaos brings up a good point in that he will not buy a knife without seeing the makers work in person. I realize that in the next couple of years that if I want to sell more than 30 or so knives a year that I am going to have to make the plunge and travel to a large US knife show.
But for now I will stay betweened the rock and the hard spot due to financial and time restraints and continue to put out the best work I can and let it speak for itself. I know my customers are showing my work around because I get orders from specific geographical locations where I already have sold knives to. I also have many repeate customers that are on there 3rd or 4th knife. For this kind of responce I am forever grateful.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

I have always found it more productive to deal with my own mistakes than to worry about those of others.

I did a show once next to the knifemaker who many would consider the best there is at fit and finish. One of the blades on his table had a small smudge from when he etched his name in it. The lighting in the exhibit room allowed him to see it for the first time, though I am certain he scrutinizes his knives more closely than anyone who will post here. Had he not done that show, he might have shipped it to a customer who with different lighting might have seen the problem. And I suppose that customer could contact someone besides the maker to fix it up. What does that prove?

It most likely proves that the customer turned his $1000+ knife into a $100 Gun Show special. Had he just returned it to the maker, it would have been fixed, following a considerable amount of personal embarrassment for the maker, and returned in better shape than any other maker in the world is capable of making it.

Personally I would much rather buy back a knife than have someone else try to fix a perceived problem, no matter how minor, even if it's just emotional.

 

[Arthur Washburn]

There are a few well known bordering on legendary makers that have become household names and developed followings in the knife community. As part of this recognition these makers have bought into and perpetuated the myth created by their followers. These guys are also masters of self-promotion. In their followings they can do no wrong. I witnessed an example of this at the blade show. A doctor came by the table showing off the “Moran Bowie” that he paid $3500 for. I’m sorry I don’t buy into the legend. The fit and finish were terrible the balance seemed odd and the knife was very unattractive. At this point I've offended a bunch of you cause you think Bill is a knife god and he has done great things for the knife community and he has but In my opinion there are much better values in the knife world than a Moran knife.

There are also a few makers out there that will tell you anything you want to hear. There are people around gullible enough to buy into every wild statement made by these makers. These people are doing the knife community no favors. They pedal substandard products that turn off customers once they get a better knife education.

Finally R.W. Clark you are not really doing the rest of the knifemaking community any favors by fixing others substandard work. If I have work that needs the kind of attention you are talking about I’d be offended at having another maker repair it and mad at the customer for not telling me about the problem and allowing me to make good on it.

 

[Mike Hull]

I agree with Jerry and Arthur,on all points.

 

[R.W.Clark]

First off, this post was not about my work on knives other than my own. That was used as an example.

Only Beowulf has answered the real question. Why is substandard work ignored for the most part when done by big names? As far as focusing on your own work and not the work of other makers, I agree. But, I just can not figure out why newbes are raked over the coals and the big guys get free pass.

As far as working on other knives. First I try very hard to get him to send them back to the maker. He does not care about resale value. He keeps a knife for a few months and then gives it away to friends and family. But, I look at it like this. A knife is a tool, if the customer is not happy with something about the tool and wants it changed, whats the big deal. I buy a gun, shoot with it a couple times, then take it to a gunsmith to have the things I don't like changed.

For good or bad, in the end my family has a roof over their head for another month. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS TO ME!

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I do not put a higher standard on the work of a new maker than that of a big name. In fact it is quite the opposite. I will give a new maker a little slack. Small flaws that I would never accept from a top long time maker I will live with in a newbies knives.

When a maker has been making knives for 10 years I expect his knives to be well made, but I know that they may have small imperfections, and this is fine. It is after all a handmade knife and a tiny little imperfections are to be expected. Maybe others do not hold this same opinion, but to me they are part and parcel of the final product.

By the way R.W., why did you mention Ken's name but say that you did not want to mention other names because they are friends of yours? It seems to me you should not have mentioned names at all.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

In all my years in knifemaking I've never seen anyone raked over the coals, least of all a newcomer. Most of us try to help them.

If you think it's unfair that some folks have garnered excellent reputations while you believe you make better knives than they do, I suspect someone will think the same of you one day.

I'm no great fan of all the big name knifemakers, but either directly or indirectly they are why we are here. If they hadn't set the precedence and shown the way, I seriously doubt you could even buy a knifemaker's belt grinder today, and you darn sure wouldn't be reading about custom knives in magazines. Moran taught a LOT of people how to forge. Many of those have gone on to make better knives than their mentor, but few would have gone anywhere without him.

Frankly I think it's arrogant to think someone who pioneered modern knifemaking is just living on his reputation, when you wouldn't even know what a custom knife was without their pioneering efforts. But for them and the interest they created in fine knives, this forum wouldn't exist.

This is like saying there are better Generals than George Washington... Not when we needed him!

 

[HermanKnives]

Originally posted by R.W.Clark


What I find disturbing is that I have been brought to call over details that many collectors seem to ignore with the "old timers". I have several customers who seem to feel that I can do no wrong. They are to the point of bringing other makers work to me to "clean up". I have worked on WH's, Ken Mcfalls, and many many other WELL known makers. I leave out some names because they are friends of mine.

you sound alot like Lynn Griffith here having buyers feel you can do no wrong. am i to assume all your grinds and knives are absolutely perfect?

your knifemaker friends dont find it offensive that you "fix" things on their knives? i sure would! it seems very unethical to me that you even would work on others knives. you mention Ken Mcfall, why not the others?

the point art brought up about Moran knives is true BUT...the guys buying Moran or even Loveless knives are NOT buy them for quality alone. these guys are legends in knifemaking and they are buying the names and a small piece of history! these 2 never claimed to be the worlds best craftsmen.

Well, if I put out grinds like this I would not last very long as a custom knife maker. A simple roll over review clearly shows, to even an untrained eye, that the grinds are all off. The plunges do not match at all and the grinds themselves are a differant hights.

I have smoothed finishes, buffed out waves and orange peel, filled voids in spacer material, replaced bolsters, flushed out pins, evened plunges and grinds, reshaped handles and on and on.

wow! i am surprised many other makers are even still in business with you around. all your knives must be without flaws!

I have also spent many hours at knife shows looking over handmade knives. It seems that most of the problems come from the "top" makers.

and what are these "problems" from the top makers?? please list them all.

the point Jerry brought up has happened to me. i have missed some small finishing problems due to my tired old eyes and different lighting, but if the buyer never lets me know and sends my knife to someone like you, how will i ever learn of this problem to correct it? i would be mmore than happy to fix little things that i miss and WANT my buyers to inform me of things like this so that i can keep my quality up to par.

As far as working on other knives. First I try very hard to get him to send them back to the maker. He does not care about resale value. He keeps a knife for a few months and then gives it away to friends and family. But, I look at it
like this. A knife is a tool, if the customer is not happy with something about the tool and wants it changed, whats the big deal. I buy a gun, shoot with it a couple times, then take it to a gunsmith to have the things I don't like changed.

you dont try hard enough. simply tell him you wont work on others knives.
whats the big deal?? if you have to ask this you really have no clue about ethics in the knifemaking business. is the gun you compare this too hand made by one man and not just one of many thousands? this doesnt even compare to handmade knives!

For good or bad, in the end my family has a roof over their head for another month. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS TO ME!

sorry that ethics take a back seat to making money to you. maybe you should look at yourself a little deeper rather than all these "top makers" problems you need to "fix".

Only Beowulf has answered the real question. Why is substandard work ignored for the most part when done by big names? As far as focusing on your own work and not the work of other makers, I agree. But, I just can not figure out why newbes are raked over the coals and the big guys get free pass.

who are all these "big names" getting a free pass? and who are the buyers buying "substandard" work and letting it pass?

R.W. if you are trying to make a name for yourself, you sure are headed in the wrong direction. until EVERY one of your knives is perfect beyond doubt, i would suggest you stay working on your own knives and leave others work to them. if you had ethics you would educate this buyer of yours and explain to him why you will NOT work on other makers knives and "fix" things he isnt happy with and explain to him why he should let the maker know of his problems with a knife and let the original maker fix them! otherwise stop whining about makers getting a "free pass" since they are never told about their mistakes.

 

[Rob Simonich]

I never ever work on another makers knife! I think it is bad taste for both the owner and a different maker to fix a problem. If I let a substandard knife go out the door I want it back! I will either buy it back, replace it or fix it. This happened to me recently, I let one go out the door that wasnt up to my standards. I am replacing the knife.

To comment on the original question, I dont really think that newer makers are held to a higher standard. I think also that the "big names" that have less than satisfactory fit and finish are the exception rather than the rule. Jerry hit the nail right square on the head, where would we be without Moran, Loveless, etc? Not where we are today for sure!

 

[tom mayo]

Heck Rob, it wasnt really that bad....you just forgot to sharpen it, thats all!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rob Simonich]

Oh geeze Tom, that was a different one!

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Yeah, and I fixed it!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

 

[Rob Simonich]

Oh the horror! I will pay for that one for a long long time! I would be dissapointed if I didnt!

 

[Jerry Hossom]

The worst part was getting directions from Tom!

And in all fairness, you asked me to do it...

As for paying, does forever sound long enough?

 

[rdangerer]

Originally posted by R.W.Clark
Why is substandard work ignored for the most part when done by big names?

Lots of reasons, here are a few possibilities:
1. buyers aren't educated enough to do a quick once-over to look at plunges, grind lines, symmetry, fit/finish, etc., nor have they seen enough work at given price points, to know any better
2. buyers are buying design, often flashy, over fit/finish (Emerson customs, and others I can't mention because I'll earn a raft of flaming t.u.r.d.s, because they read this forum, or have their wives do it for them. I know this from experience)
3. they know what they are doing, and are buying a hot name as an investment or to flip it at a higher price (Loveless & Moran & Emerson's customs fit here)
4. they DON'T know what they are doing, and are buying a hot name (Loveless & Moran & Emerson's customs fit here too)

There are plenty of dealers who know they are:
* buying decent custom quality at high prices because they can sell to what amounts to a greater fool IMHO (Emerson custom stuff, Ryan, plenty more),
* or they are buying substandard fit/finish and asymmetrical service of product, but with good heat treat & a name attached...said name being an astute marketer and creater of "aura" or "desireability" (Phill Hartsfield).

And they'd do it all day, every day, if they could. I would too if I were a dealer, and that was how I made my living. I'd buy at a discount to what the market would bear... provide a service to a buyer.

Makers can educate some of their customers if you make a good product and are therefore beyond reproach in your chosen price category. Dealers can do the same, but ONLY if the customer is a willing student. And you know that is some fraction of the total.

Bottom Line: the buying market is not uniform. If I were a maker, I'd focus on offering a lot of design, fit/finish, and heat treating excellence for the money. I'd ask my customers a lot of questions about their intent so they got their money's worth. And then I'd provide common sense warranty service to my customers no matter where they bought the knife (they might come back to me next time for another if they bought one of my knives on the open market). Focus on your own work, and just allow the market to sort out the rest of the BS. There are plenty of guys doing just this, and I've found a few of them myself and bought one or more from them.

Jerry Fisk is a good recent example of a fine gentleman, a straight shooter, and a guy who makes a damned fine knife. He slugged it out, did honorable things for himself and others and the whole business, and rose to the top. Overall excellence does get rewarded if you stick to the right things and let the market sort it out.

Loveless was a truly brilliant designer, and was a pretty decent maker. His fit/finish is far exceeded at relatively bargain prices by e.g. George Herron, Geno Denning, and countless others, however. He is a legend... and that would appear to be well deserved based on design and place in the evolution of the business.

Moran is credited, from what I read, with repopularizing damascus in the U.S. You guys may know different. He had a big hand in creating ABS also...giving back to the industry through organization and training. Good things by a good maker. He's a legend now, and his knives are out of my reach $ wise. Just my opinion.)

 

[bandaidman]

this is a different thread than what I thought it was going to be.

the choice "sometimes" was left out

A more popular maker will usaully get more for a blade than a relative unknown because reputation (i.e. brand recognition) means something. This is true in cars, guns, flyrods etc...

This success is usually not overnight and it takes a while to earn it.


As to the second half of the thread (re fixing other makers flaws), that was probalbly best left unsaid....

 

[Les Robertson]

Are new knife makers held to a higher standard than they were say 10 years ago, Yes! Why, because of the free flow of information, such as presented here in this thread.

Why do the knives of some of the makers mentioned here such as Moran and Loveless bring the money they do. Because they have to.

If these two legends of knife making received payment for the quality of the work they produce the rest of the custom knife makers would get little or nothing for their knives.

After all, if you paid the $250 a Loveless Drop Point Hunter should be (and that is being generous) then what could Steve Johnson expect to get (Steve argueably makes the best hunter in the world). He would get about $200, George Herron would get about $150 and the rest of the hunter makers out there could expect less than $100.00 per knife.

So it's good that people line up to buy Loveless Hunters at the $2,000 plus range. It makes knives from Steve, George and Geno look like real bargains! Note, Loveless does not charge this kind of money for his knives. Now if a hunter is $2,000.00 then a Fighter is $6,000 and a Sub-Hilt Fighter is $15,000.00.

Same for Bill Moran (and Bill will be the first to admit that his knives should not bring the money the do in the aftermarket). If he doesn't come along and do what he does, the Jerry Fisk is not a National Living Treasure, Harvey Dean is not getting what he should for his D-Guard Bowies, etc.

In any collectible type market it is necessary to have the "Ledgends"! As they set the price standard (not necessairly the fit/finish standard) for those who follow.

People who buy the legends do so for varied reasons. However, many justify the cost as an ivestment. They can buy this knife at an inflated price and probably sell it in a few years and make some money with it. Now that is one great hobby!

Does position in the market and longevity count for something with collectors? Yes. Will they look at knives from some of these makers with less scrutiny than other makers? Yes. Why do they do this? Because these makers knives have gone beyond being merely knives. They have become a commodity which is easily sold or traded. These makers knives have a proven track record of two things:

1) Desireablity

2) Profit

Will they let the next generation of makers, and those to follow slide? No. Reason, you were given help, the Legends had to figure it out for themselves.

For you really new makers, 5 years or less. Expect to have your work looked at hard. The collectors of today are much more educated than they were even 5 years ago. You makers who want to live on your past laurels, don't be surprised to watch your delivery time to start shrinking. Because some of you feel you have paid your dues and do not attend shows, advertise and/or have a presence on the Internet. Many of the new collectors do not know who you are. This is not their problem, it is your problem.

Ten years ago, there were probably less than 1,000 makers, today there is probably close to 4,000. The Blade Show has close to 400 tables in the custom section, this years Guild Show had 375 tables. Competition is at an all time high.

Is all this fair? No.

Is this the reality of the Market Place? Yes.

Some times as custom knife makers and custom knife dealers we forget in the big picture, the ultimate decision as to who stays and who goes is not ours to make. It rests soley with the collectors/custom knife buyers.

 

[Bugs3x]

Very well said, Les! I think you encapsulated most of the salient points on the subject.

I do find it interesting that though 2 to 1 in the poll, people said No, that new makers aren't held to a higher standard, that most of the comments seem to have come from the minority position.

I do think the same phenomenon happens in the manufactured knife area, tho perhaps not with so widesprad a price difference. The inevitable Sebenza threads are often really about the same subject.

While some seem to have been disappointed in some of what Ron had to say, I think he brought up an important topic. It certainly reminds me of the Steven Dick editorial wherein he explained why so many big name makers and production blades haven't made it into print in his magazine -- poor quality knives are received for review. Without coming close to naming a soul or company, he simply said think about it.

I happen to think that by and large, the titles of Journeyman Smith and Master Smith in the ABS are probably worth some higher numbers after the $ sign. I think there is no doubt of this when one learns that Ed Fowler takes longer to make each individual knife than he did years ago. For most makers, I tend to think the opposite is true. Volume becomes an extremely important value in the maker's system. Thank God for makers like Ed, who are still striving with every knife they make to learn something and make it just a bit better than the last knife they made.

I don't worry much about the prices charged by most makers. There are a couple, who shall remain nameless, who take a $5-$10 piece of steel, bend it a bit, sharpen part of it, then charge several hundred dollars for their fantastic neck knife or whatever. No handles, no holes, just an unusual shape and bingo! Big bucks. Not for this boy!