Are new makers held to a higher standard?

Is a makers name or popularity more important than the quality of their work?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
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Tim Herman said
"the point Jerry brought up has happened to me. i have missed some small finishing problems due to my tired old eyes and different lighting, but if the buyer never lets me know and sends my knife to someone like you, how will i ever learn of this problem to correct it? i would be mmore than happy to fix little things that i miss and WANT my buyers to inform me of things like this so that i can keep my quality up to par."

You pegged it Tim!!!!!!!!
 
Les
I think you hit the home run on this one. I call it preceived customer value. Some times there is a lot of collector value in a name. Especially if that maker is at the waining end of a brilliant career.
But what about the every day using knife. Utilities, hunters, etc. Does name recognition have a lot to do with market price and value "if" every thing else is equal.
What if the under study of a well knowen maker had a design he was becoming knowen for and the teacher liking the design asked the student if he could use the design. Should the teachers knife be worth more if fit, finish and everything else is the same just because it has his name on it.
 
Originally posted by Bugs3x

I do find it interesting that though 2 to 1 in the poll, people said No, that new makers aren't held to a higher standard, that most of the comments seem to have come from the minority position.
Click to expand...

Bugs,

The polled question and the thread topic are not the same. I voted 'no' in the poll, but would have voted 'yes' if the thread topic and poll one in the same. That doesn't necessarily mean I think it is unfair.


Brett
 
rdangerer, Bugs and Les. Thank you very much. That does explain alot. Although I was not referring to the "legends" it does still apply to those I did have in mind. The whole education angle makes a ton of sense. With a new breed of knife customer who are alot more educated, you can expect that they would be harder on the newer makers. I also can understand wanting a special maker in your collection. I guess if I had a chance to own one of my favorite maker’s knives (even with some small flaws), I would do it.

As to the rest of you.

First off, there is just no pleasing you. You bitch at Mayo for not naming names then you bitch at me for naming names. And then bitch even more for not naming enough names. Whatever! However, I personally do feel bad for stating the names I did, and for that I do apologize.

Second, get off your high horse (Herman). If it is against a personal principle, fine can't argue with that. But don't go spewing BS about some unstated ethic. I do nothing that is unethical or immoral. The maker no longer owns the knife; it belongs to the buyer. If a buyer wants to pay me for a knife, then turn around and break off the blade in a vise, fine. And, I will sell him another. What a customer does with one of my knives after he pays for it is of little concern to me. If he wants another maker to work on it, big fat hairy deal. I get paid for my effort; I provide the best product I can, and that is all that matters. As to your snipe at my putting my family above your mystical "ethics", damn straight!

Third, you guys seem to be experts in putting words into the mouths of others. For the only reason of causing controversy where none was stated or implied. I never said that I was better than anyone was. I never said I was perfect. I never said my knives did not have flaws. If you want to read that into what I said, go back to JR High and take a reading comprehension class.

Forth, I only do this for one customer. This guy has over $10,000 worth of knives on order from me. He gets almost anything he asks for. ALMOST but not all. He spends $4000-$5000 a month on knives, he never sells them. When he is tired of them he just gives them away and has no concern for investment value. He likes what he likes and wants everything to be just so.

Lastly, there are alot of things that this customer asks me to do that I refuse. I will not reprofile a blade, I will do nothing that weakens the knife, and, this was a big issue for me, I will under no condition alter, change or erase a makers mark. He has asked, and it did cause problems when I refused, but eventually he backed down. I will only do major changes to factory knives (replacing bolsters, replacing handles etc.). On a custom knife I will repair user damage, I will do minor reshaping of the handle if he complains about it not fitting his hand, and yes I will even out grinds so long as they are not too bad. If it takes major work I will refuse.

It started when this customer saw a bunch of my knives in a local shop having their serial numbers engraved. He bought most of them on the spot. He bought several more a few weeks later. He asked me to rehandle a WH (replace the Ivorite with real ivory), no problem. He then asked me to fix the finish on two customs that had been damaged by poor sharpening. After my normal speech of "send it to the maker", I agreed to do it. He then brought me the Mcfall (if my memory serves me). It had no flaws; it was the pins that bothered him. They had spun heads and he wanted them flush. After my normal speech, I did the job. This just led to more and more. Some I do, some I refuse. If that offends the knife "gods" then so be it.
 
IMHO, seems like a little backstabbing. Just keep doing what you are doing. I can handle it:) Another maker works on one of mine and the warranty is out the window.
This thread sure doesn't match the initial post and poll:(
 
i am not a knife god and not on a high horse. if having ethics and priciples bothers you and ruffles your feathers, too bad. bs about an unstated ethic? nope just honest ethics MOST knifemakers have. you claim since the maker no longer owns the knife that makes it ok for you to change it? yes it is a big fat hairy deal to makers that i know. no "mystical" ethics involved just plain common sense and courtesy.
i bitched at mayo for not naming names after he brought the subject up, if you cant back it with proof why bring it up at all?
if my caring about the knife business to the point of speaking out about it to people like you and you see it as me on my high horse, then thats what you will think. i have put over 23 years into this and the KMG and dont want to see it continually getting a bad name over a few unethical people. if that makes me a "knife god" then so be it, but when a guy like you or lynn griffith shoot off about crap like this then yes i have to say something. then you come back with cute little insults about going back to jr high and learn reading. you say you are not a newbie knifemaker and that you have been doing it for 10 years. are you jealous of the "top makers" you claim are getting all these free passes that took them 20 years to get to their level?
are you ever going to list the problems you claim all these "top makers" make for you? seems you are the one on the high horse spewing BS.
 
Kit, the thread took off in a totally differant direction than intended. The intent was to find out two things. First why life is so much harder now for a newbe than it used to be. Second, it seems that lately alot of people are buying on name alone and are concerned very little with the continuing quality of the maker. And lastly (with info from the poll) to try and figure out why a few makers (yes I agree it is a few) are able to lose alot of quality after they "hit" and still be popular.
 
I have a newbie, son in law, Mike Obenauf, working with me since last October. I have taught him the "rules" and he lives by them. He has had one that went "south" and he fixed it, overnight. Paid for shipping to him and return. That is ethics. HE fixed it. Not some other maker. **** happens and then you deal with it.
He felt bad about it. That is part of it. It has happened to me. I know the feeling.
Do I hold him to a higher standard? Yea, I guess I do. He is a student and he should be better than the master that taught him. Time will tell.
 
Originally posted by Kit Carson
I have a newbie, son in law, Mike Obenauf, working with me since last October. I have taught him the "rules" and he lives by them. He has had one that went "south" and he fixed it, overnight. Paid for shipping to him and return. That is ethics. HE fixed it. Not some other maker. **** happens and then you deal with it.
He felt bad about it. That is part of it. It has happened to me. I know the feeling.
Do I hold him to a higher standard? Yea, I guess I do. He is a student and he should be better than the master that taught him. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

You couldn't have said it better, Kit.

I wholeheartedly agree.

To me, a person who upholds these values, and unwaveringly offers to "make it right" after the customer complains, has earned my business, and my respect.

Mr Clark.....

I like your knives. I think you do some great work.

However, I suggest you heed the advice of the above Master maker. He is absolutely corresct in his ethical assessment.
 
db. Speaking of ethics. That was a bad mistake. I lived up to it, admitted to it. And everything has been settled and made good.

Boy, now I really understand why things stay static. Anyone who questions the status quo is hammered.
 
What an inspirational post Les, except maybe on one thing. If a Loveless knife was sold for $250.00 because that is the proper price based on it it's quality, then the other makers knives that you mentioned would probably receive more money for their knives based on the same criteria, which is price for quality. Do you understand what I mean? I do not know if I am explaining myself very well.

The knife industry needed these makers to have had the success they have had.I for one am glad they have had this success, and I also think that it is well deserved. The value of knives is based on the maximum a person will pay for a knife. When the knives of these makers sell for $10,000.00, $15,000, $25,000.00 or even higher then it makes it easier for makers to get what their knives are worth and have it be a bargain for the customer. I am one that thinks the customer is getting excellent value in the knives he buys today.

Maybe I do not have the experience with knives that you have had R.W.. I have not seen all the quality problems you have seen. I find the quality of work on all most all the knives I have had the pleasure to have had pass through my hands has been wonderful. They have not been perfect and some were less perfect than others, but all offered great value because to me their quality was higher than their price.

I do not think that new makers are held to a higher standard than established makers. I just think that they are held to a much higher standard than in the past. Les mentioned a prime reason for that is the more informed customer. I am one of those customers and I am more informed because of the internet, especially because of Bladeforums, and also because of the great info in books, on tapes and in magazines. Also my ability to handle great knives at knife shows helps make me more aware of the differences between very good knives and not so good knives. More and more of the knife buying public are making better informed decisions. This puts more pressure on the new knife makers to make a better knife. That is a good thing for us buyers, but it makes the life of new knife makers more difficult.

From what I can tell the new and young knife makers entering the field today are doing a great job of handling this pressure. Some are making knives far better than their experience would lead you to believe possible.

Do I hold you up to a higher standard, Mr. Clark? No I do not. Do I expect you to make a good(and hopefully a great)knife for the money you charge, yes I do. It is obvious to me that your work stands on it's own merit. The knives of yours that I have seen are very nice. I do not think you should denegrate the work of others and should concentrate on your making your knives the best that they can be.

Ed Fowler said that you can never master all of the knife making trade, all you can hope for is to master your small piece of it,and that a master knows that he can never stop learning and improving or he will no longer be a master of his trade. You R.W. should concentrate on mastering your little corner of the knife world and let other worry about theirs. You will only cause trouble by denegrating the work of others and this will cause hard feelings. You do not want that do you?

Damn, sometimes I can ramble on. Thank you R.W. for this great thread. You probably did not know when you started it it was going to go in this direction, but I am sure glad it did.
 
IMHO, that wasn't status quo. That was some new stuff. Gotta stay on your toes. Most of these bastids have a huge, long memory.
Step back, take a look, and decide. Did I do right?
 
still waiting for that list of problems the top makers made for you r.w. stop avoiding things and tell us instead of still just whining about the knife gods and mystical ethics and status quo bs.
 
R.W. get of your cross. You have not been hammered on for questioning the status quo, but for getting involved in matters better left to the original maker of the knife.

Well known makers will make mistakes when making a knife. Should we expect perfection? I do not think that is practical. Should we expect them to correct the problems when they present themselves? You bet! To do this they must get that chance and when someone else fixes thier mistakes they might not even know there was a problem.

I really do think you asked a valid question when you asked, should a new knife maker be held to higher standard than an better known one. This has lead IMO to a great thread. As has been stated before, the other things you have posted were better left unsaid, except maybe that you have gotten something from the answers to them.

In my view you should always inform a client that wants you to fix the work of another maker that this is something you do not feel is appropriate. You should make it clear that he should always give that maker a chance to correct the problem. That that is the only way that these other makers can learn of what they are doing wrong so in the future they will not make that same mistake. I would think more of you as a maker for showing this degree of ethics and I would go back to the original maker for the work, as I should.

R.W. I am not trying to hammer on you, just to let you know how I feel on this matter. I would hope that that is the reason you posted this thread in the first place. Not just to get a bunch of people agreeing with you about how the new maker is held to to high a standard, while better known maker are allowed to get away with lower quality work, but also to hear from the people who do not agree with this theory.

Blue Skies.
 
Herman, what the hell is your malfunction.

A) You can not read
B) You can not type at the level of a four year old (did you know there is a freaking shift key on your key board?)
C) As my wife just said, you bitch like a pregnant woman

I have been caused no problems by other makers. Where you picked that up from only your undeveloped mind knows. If you want to know whos work is slipping go out and look for yourself. I will make no more comments regarding the work of others.
It was not my intention to degrade other makers, that is why I am sorry for stating any names. I was trying to get to the bottom of something that has been nagging at me for awhile now. I now have several answers that make sense.
If you will now excuse me, I have better things to do then reply to your elementary mantra.
 
New makers are held to higher standards nowadays because the buyer is better informed. There are also alot more makers than ever before so the buyer has more choices. With so many makers and more all the time, why shouldn't I want the better knife?
As to you other question about why some old time knife legends seem to get away with some flaws, that's a whole different story. As Les stated, it isn't Loveless and Moran charging those extreme prices for their knives, it's the aftermarket. But let's face some facts. The person buying a Loveless today isn't buying the knife to take on a hunting trip and use on game. He is buying it as a collector either for the pure pleasure of owning it, or as an investment. The owner of a Loveless or a Moran has no doubt that they can turn around whenever they like and get their money back out of it, usually with a profit. Can the same be said for an RW Clark knife or any other lesser known newer maker? Check out the for sale/individual forum. Knives in mint condition are selling for less than the original cost everyday. Part of the problem is that alot of new makers nowadays don't want to pay their dues. The guy making knives for 4 months wants to charge as much as the guy making knives for 10-20 years. So unless it's a purely using knife, people want to know that the knife they buy will be worth as much as they paid, 5 years from now. Half of the newer makers drop out of the business within a year or two which also drops the value of their knives.
Back to Tim Herman's question. Who are the guys making all these mistakes and what are they? Any maker I've ever dealt with would want to be informed of any flaw I find and be given the chance to correct it. That is part of the guaranty that most makers give. To fix any defect found in the knife as long as they are able and the knife is not abused. Most likely any maker that found out that I asked another maker to correct a mistake in one of their knives would be highly embarrassed and insulted.
My .02

Dave
 
OK, been putting ALOT of thought into this one.

While I still have a hard time seeing how it is back stabbing, and I totally feel that it is not an ethical issue, I will bow to the general feelings of my peers. IF so many others feel that it is taboo, I must be missing something.
I will contact three makers who I have a very high respect for in the morning. If they have the same opinion as the rest of you folks (and I think they will) then thats it.
So here it is -

I will from this time out refuse to do any work (other than simple honing) on the products of any other custom knife maker.

I will however continue to do any mods on any factory knife that I find suitable.

Does that put me back within the realm of accepted principles?

Truth to be told, I have never really felt very good about it.
 
So, from what I have gotten so far this is my understanding of the issue.

In a round about way, newbes are held to a higher standard. It seems that there are at least three types of buyers.

The buyer who buys whatever he wants with no regard to name or reputation. He is looking for the best overall value in what he likes.

Then you have the investment buyer. This type of buyer knows who is hot. He buys for the percieved value of a maker and a knife. To me this buyer is older, of a higher income, and is looking at what knives will hold or increase their value. It seems that this is the type of buyer who will more often than not buy from top makers.

And then you have the "new breed". These I picture as new collectors. There are interested in the lower of the top makers. This is generally the buyer who will be interested in the new maker. They have done their homework and know what to look for. I would guess that they are younger and of a slightly lower income. They are looking in the best bang for the buck. They are more likely to speculate on new makers, but only want the best.

In this setup, the newbe is put under more pressure. Due to competition and the advanced levels of the beginning collectors.

Does that sound pretty close? This should be good. Lets see if we can build on it.
 
Hi Keith,

I understood exactly what I wrote. Yes, you would get a better quality knife from Steve Johnson and George Herron. However, if Loveless knives were readily available, because he is the legend, most collectors would not be inclined to pay Steve or George more for their knives, even though they would admit they are better. Some would buy knives from Steve and George, but that would be to fill out a collection.

Those of us like me, who have looked at hundreds of thousands of custom knives will tell you price and quality do not always relate to each other.

I have seen tens of thousands of knives that I could not believe the price that was being asked. These prices were asked by both established and new makers.

In fairness to the makers pricing a knife can be the most difficult part of the whole process. The most FAQ I get from makers is "what would you price this at". I am at a disadvantage because I have never made a knife. However, I am at an advantage as I know what the prices are his/her competitors are asking. My question back to the maker is "do you want to sell 10 or 100"?

A knife priced to make it more competitive in a partiuclar market will result in more orders, which means you can than use the economies of scale in regards to materials and working in "batches. There by reducing both your time and costs per knife, which will more than make up for that slight reduction in price. Long term you will make more profit per knife with a lesser price. This does not relate to what is generally refered to as "Art" type knives. This is for a maker who produces a "Model 1" for example.

Collectors who perceive value in the knife being offered will generally purchase that knife. However, the name and desireablity will play a role in the overall equation as what a collect will pay (not should pay) for a particlar knife.

Educated buyers are the quality knife makers best friend.
 
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