Are there Knife companies that makes blades as strong as Busse knives?

If some task or other can break my Condor HD Kukri, well, let's say I don't want to be around to experience the forces it would take.
 
A 1/4 inch stock of any decent steel will be tough to break. Just don't swear allegiance to a brand because some overweight guy in a hockey mask couldn't catch his breath.
 
I saw one of those videos once. I clicked on it and there was a guy trying to peel an apple in Level 4 MOPP gear with hockey mask... no thanks.
 
jbmonkey said:
almost as good as a busse......hummm... that's impossible cause nothing comes close to a busse.

but........

any lower rc knife made in 440a steel will be quite good when it comes to not chipping the edge or breaking.

seriously i got some 440a choppers that can take a beating, and not break. the edges roll easily due to the lower rc hardening......but they are really tough.
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That is simply not true there are plenty of knives that are just as tough as a Busse IN USE. On paper INFI may be tougher but in use I would put a Fehrman First Strike (CPM 3V) or a Swamp Rat Rodent 6 (52100) up aginst any INFI blade. Or if I wanted one stronger I would contact Big Chris here on the forums and have him make me something out of 1/2 inch thick CPM 3V and only heat it to 55-56 hrc.

And the tests people mention are widely known but you guys need to remember that a ESEE 4 did ALMOST just as well and its 3/16 inch thick 1095.
 
agree with anyone for the lower Rc for extra toughness but I recommend you look at the Knife Research knives. as friend of me says, if the US have Busse... Europe has Knife Research.
 
There are some guys who can break a knife just by looking at it.
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I honestly feel that most of the legendary strength of Busses comes from their geometry. Yes, INFI is tough stuff. But it's also known--even amongst Busse enthusiasts, for not having the highest edge retention. Even if the steel really is special somehow there's nothing mystical about a spring heat treatment and cold chisel geometry being crazy tough. Just sayin'.
 
@ freewheeling

Edit the pic from your post. This isn't Whine & Cheese.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
... Yes, INFI is tough stuff. But it's also known--even amongst Busse enthusiasts, for not having the highest edge retention...
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/487168-INFI-2770-pieces-of-hemp-rope-!!!

As a matter of fact, INFI edge-retention was a selling point, alongside its corrosion & impact resistance. It may not match some of the fine-grain high vanadium powder steels available today for toughness and edge-retention, but it evinces its properties at 60 Rc. It is NOT "spring heat treatment". Just sayin'.
 
That test has never seemed particularly convincing to me. There were no other knives to compare the Busse to, and the type of rope being cut is never stated. There's none of the consistency that testers like Ankerson and JDavis provide.
I do think that Infi has better edge holding and toughness, (though not to the extent that some people claim,) and much better stain resistance, than basic carbon steels. But that test doesn't show it... or anything else, really.
 
chiral.grolim said:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/487168-INFI-2770-pieces-of-hemp-rope-!!!

As a matter of fact, INFI edge-retention was a selling point, alongside its corrosion & impact resistance. It may not match some of the fine-grain high vanadium powder steels available today for toughness and edge-retention, but it evinces its properties at 60 Rc. It is NOT "spring heat treatment". Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

As mentioned by Dan57, it would be nice to see the test replicated in a documentable manner. Are there CATRA scores available on it?

I'm not saying it's not high quality steel, nor that Busses themselves are at spring-level RC hardness. Just that softer heat treatment (vs. glassy hard) and thick (vs. thin) blade geometries are inherently going to be stronger. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. However, you'll note that on the spectrum from razor-thin to cold chisel-thick most Busses rank towards the cold chisel end of things. And even if run at glassy hardness I would have a hard time breaking (warning--more hyperbole here) a 6" thick, 12" long piece of steel through flexion. Again I just think that MOST (not ALL) of the extreme toughness comes from geometry.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever done abusive testing on a thin INFI blade? I haven't exactly gone digging for it, so I have no idea, but would be interested to know.
 
Can always use a thick, cheap 5160 or 1055 fixed blade as a beater, more than tough enough for even lightly stupid activities (attacking steel objects, digging, etc.)

I'm not a special/super steel fan personally. Decent materials, right geometry for uses, and smart thinking mixed with experience always wins - doesn't waste money either.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
As mentioned by Dan57, it would be nice to see the test replicated in a documentable manner. Are there CATRA scores available on it?

I'm not saying it's not high quality steel, nor that Busses themselves are at spring-level RC hardness. Just that softer heat treatment (vs. glassy hard) and thick (vs. thin) blade geometries are inherently going to be stronger...

...Again I just think that MOST (not ALL) of the extreme toughness comes from geometry.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever done abusive testing on a thin INFI blade? I haven't exactly gone digging for it, so I have no idea, but would be interested to know.
Click to expand...

The rope test was performed live at BLADE. Yes, it was a stunt, but there were other knife companies present that either could not or would not attempt to replicate it at that time. What is agreed upon is a) it must be fine-grained to hold its edge like that, and b) the edge must have been quite coarse to keep cutting like that.

I too cannot find CATRA results to compare. The best I can find is Jim ranking it alongside 154CM at 61 Rc.

Softer = weaker for steel, unless you are concerned with impact toughness. INFI claims good edge retention with high impact toughness and easy resharpening even at 60 Rc, with some corrosion resistance as well. Those are all excellent attributes in ANY knife, chopper or slicer. Machete or scythe? *shrug* I don't know why they haven't made them. But here is a link to the famous Cliff Stamp Busse Basic 7 destruction testing: FFG from 0.25" down to ~0.040", ~17-dps. That is not overly thick, and it was compared to others knives in the same category: http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/busse_basic.html

Noss beat on a "Skinny" ASH as well as a monster Battle Mistress, but I didn't read what the bevel thickness of either was...

While "extreme toughness" may come from low RC and thick geometry in some blades, it is not so for all. Brittle steel must be left softer to prevent apex degradation compared to tougher steel. Softer steel must be left thicker to prevent edge-rolling compared to harder steel. 60 Rc isn't all that soft and 17-dps isn't very thick. If it can perform as well or better than 154CM in edge retention while evincing much higher toughness at the same hardness, that is nothing to scoff at.

Why do people give high regard to certain custom makers using basic materials with little regard for aesthetics? Because of the performance of their product. If folks think there are masters of D2 or 52100 or CPM-3V, why not also here?

And why do folks assume that all claims about INFI are hyperbole without actually looking into it??
 
there simply is no other knife that is as tough, takes a beating, and is anywhere NEAR as easy to sharpen as a Busse. And what about corrosion resistance? You can say CPM3V or A8 is tougher, but they simply do not have the best of all worlds. I'm not great at sharpening, I'm okay, but I'm able to get any Busse I use back to shaving sharp faster than, or as fast as any other knife, stainless or otherwise.
And holy crap. I didn't even mention the guarantee. Hell, they will guarantee breakage against THROWING. Find another knife maker that will deliver on that.
...........
let me make another comment on the corrosion resistance. INFI does not pit. That's right it doesn't pit. I've never heard anyone on the forums or anywhere else claim anything other than a little surface rust.
 
PatrickKnight said:
That is simply not true there are plenty of knives that are just as tough as a Busse IN USE. On paper INFI may be tougher but in use I would put a Fehrman First Strike (CPM 3V) or a Swamp Rat Rodent 6 (52100) up aginst any INFI blade. Or if I wanted one stronger I would contact Big Chris here on the forums and have him make me something out of 1/2 inch thick CPM 3V and only heat it to 55-56 hrc.

And the tests people mention are widely known but you guys need to remember that a ESEE 4 did ALMOST just as well and its 3/16 inch thick 1095.
Click to expand...

it was a statement in fun....not really being serious. Calling it sarcasm would be rude. Thanks for your thoughts though. Always appreciate info....
 
chiral.grolim said:
The rope test was performed live at BLADE. Yes, it was a stunt, but there were other knife companies present that either could not or would not attempt to replicate it at that time. What is agreed upon is a) it must be fine-grained to hold its edge like that, and b) the edge must have been quite coarse to keep cutting like that.

I too cannot find CATRA results to compare. The best I can find is Jim ranking it alongside 154CM at 61 Rc.

Softer = weaker for steel, unless you are concerned with impact toughness. INFI claims good edge retention with high impact toughness and easy resharpening even at 60 Rc, with some corrosion resistance as well. Those are all excellent attributes in ANY knife, chopper or slicer. Machete or scythe? *shrug* I don't know why they haven't made them. But here is a link to the famous Cliff Stamp Busse Basic 7 destruction testing: FFG from 0.25" down to ~0.040", ~17-dps. That is not overly thick, and it was compared to others knives in the same category: http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/busse_basic.html

Noss beat on a "Skinny" ASH as well as a monster Battle Mistress, but I didn't read what the bevel thickness of either was...

While "extreme toughness" may come from low RC and thick geometry in some blades, it is not so for all. Brittle steel must be left softer to prevent apex degradation compared to tougher steel. Softer steel must be left thicker to prevent edge-rolling compared to harder steel. 60 Rc isn't all that soft and 17-dps isn't very thick. If it can perform as well or better than 154CM in edge retention while evincing much higher toughness at the same hardness, that is nothing to scoff at.

Why do people give high regard to certain custom makers using basic materials with little regard for aesthetics? Because of the performance of their product. If folks think there are masters of D2 or 52100 or CPM-3V, why not also here?

And why do folks assume that all claims about INFI are hyperbole without actually looking into it??
Click to expand...

I realize it was a live test. I do think that being able to reproduce the results would add to the legitimacy of the test. That's just scientific method in application--I wasn't there to see it, I haven't spoken with anyone that saw it that isn't biased due to being a stakeholder, so I have to take the information with a grain of salt is all.

I get well more than acceptable edge retention out of pretty much all of my tools because I cut realistic targets and when I hit something I shouldn't (very rare) it's usually something that would dull any knife regardless of steel, like a rock. As long as a certain threshold of edge retention is met I place higher emphasis on ease of sharpening, and I get that from fairly simple steels. Even more so I place emphasis on geometry. When I need to touch up my edges it's literally no more than a few quick licks on a fine stone, strop, or steel, and I'm ready for another extended stretch of regular use. I use my blades hard, but in ways where the edges rarely take much significant damage or wear.

I do hope that you don't think I presumed that "all claims about INFI are hyperbole". I simply mentioned that I think the greatest factor behind their toughness is their geometry and heat treatment rather than specific steel composition. That doesn't mean that I think the steel doesn't still play a role. Even if INFI is everything it's claimed to be, however, I still don't care for the geometry of all but one or two that I've seen. They're just not to my taste, but I'm glad that others take so much enjoyment from them.
 
Wow very interesting discussion in here. Very informative! Much appreciated would be an understatement.

*The more you know* (Cue in star-rainbow)
 
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