Are there too many good knife makers?

[DavidZ]

This question has been around for at least the last 25 years, and the answer hasn't changed.

No, there aren't too many knifemakers.....there are enough though, to keep old hands
and new guys stretching our knifemaking AND business skill levels, as well as lookong for
new markets......and enough to allow clients alot more choices.

:thumbup: +1 You are spot on Russ. The free market will always balance itself out. The talent and resources go where the market is, and leaves when the market isn't. The buyers spend and buy when it is in their self-interest, and the makers make and sell when it is in their self interest. The reverse is also true. It is a beautiful thing!

 

[Calhoon]

Totally Peter I agree with all you say!

Many good perceptions and valid opinions in this thread. GREAT reading.

In discussing the overall population or "market" if you will, there is also a VAST majority that have absolutely no conception of "collectible" knives or even quality knives. Having lived and worked in the northeast, and being part of the corporate environment for 3 decades, I can count on one hand the number of people I have encountered, that have even a basic interest in knives. Most would consider a Buck knife bought at Walmart a high end knife!

I interact with people in various walks of life such as cyclists, bikers, custom car collectors and builders, athletes, tradesman, etc., and while many of them appreciate fine things and good quality in tools, it is rare that they are aware of, appreciate, or would EVER consider even paying over $100 for a knife.

Many of my friends think I am more than a little strange due to my interest in knives, guns and weapons!

Just being on this forum shows an interest in knives that does not exist in most " mainstream" individuals.

At local gun shows, typically, there are a few purveyors that have a good selection of manufactured and custom knives, but from appearances they do VERY minimal business, and those that have low quality imported junk, with "bling" that seem to be selling the most knives?

This IS a GREAT time to be a collector....ESPECIALLY those fortunate enough to have the disposable income to match their collecting desires

Peter

 

[erik markman]

@Buffalohump
Yes, and no.

From what I understand if you don't have a legitimate reason for carrying a knife (hunting, camping, work related, etc) the knife can be either One hand opening OR locking but not both.

So a one hand opening slipjoint is fine.

A two hand opening lockback/linerlock/framelock is fine.

A one hand locking knife is not OK (without ligitimate reason.

Also those restricions do not apply to fixed blades. They can be carried up untill a certain bladelength...though I'm not 100% sure what that length is.

With all that though. Wisdom is alway needed. You don't carry a fixed blade on the belt in the center of Berlin even IF it's legal. That's just asking for trouble. Out in the country and in smaller towns and such, no one will even bat an eyelash.

Under 12 cm bladelength.

 

[Gary Mulkey]

This question has been around for at least the last 25 years, and the answer hasn't changed.

No, there aren't too many knifemakers.....there are enough though, to keep old hands
and new guys stretching our knifemaking AND business skill levels, as well as lookong for
new markets......and enough to allow clients alot more choices.

Well said, Russ. Without competition most of us wouldn't strive to improve our product (and business skills) the same way.

I have always welcomed quality competition as it normally expands the overall market for all customs. The only negative that I have felt from all of the current makers now over years past is that it has made it more difficult to get the prime natural handle materials which will always be in finite supply but this is a small price to pay for all of the benefits.

Gary

 

[jdm61]

Was I being too obscure? Tell me which parts you didnt understand and I'll extrapolate but I thought it was quite clear: yes indeed, there is an over-supply of makers, so I agree with the original poster's question. Obviously the US market is depressed as compared with, say, 5 years ago. As to the international aspect, do you think only people in the USA collect knives? Its an international market, but a lot of people cannot import certain types of knives due to laws in their countries, most of which are relatively new. Germany and Australia have both outlawed one hand openers in recent times, hence buyers/collectors are largely restricted to fixed blades and slipjoints. A LARGE part of the custom market is in tactical folders. Still too vague???

Germany has NOT outlawed one hand openers. They outlawed the carry of a one handed opener that locks.

 

[Buffalohump]

Cool, thanks.

@Buffalohump
Yes, and no.

From what I understand if you don't have a legitimate reason for carrying a knife (hunting, camping, work related, etc) the knife can be either One hand opening OR locking but not both.

So a one hand opening slipjoint is fine.

A two hand opening lockback/linerlock/framelock is fine.

A one hand locking knife is not OK (without ligitimate reason.

Also those restricions do not apply to fixed blades. They can be carried up untill a certain bladelength...though I'm not 100% sure what that length is.

With all that though. Wisdom is alway needed. You don't carry a fixed blade on the belt in the center of Berlin even IF it's legal. That's just asking for trouble. Out in the country and in smaller towns and such, no one will even bat an eyelash.

 

[Buffalohump]

Which is what, 99% of one hand openers? Come on, why split hairs?

Germany has NOT outlawed one hand openers. They outlawed the carry of a one handed opener that locks.

 

[LX_Emergency]

Which is what, 99% of one hand openers? Come on, why split hairs?

99 percent still isn't a hundred.

Spyderco for instance makes a very convenient one hand opener that doesn't lock.

 

[pap11y]

...Are we suffering from a talent glut?

Thoughts?

No way. Different makers have different styles. There are some quality smiths out there whose knives I wouldn't touch.They are great knives but not what I like..

My knife purchases are generally based on infatuation and the more high end smiths out there, the more variety I have to choose from.

I am not a collector though.

 

[Steven65]

There are makers who have transcended knifemaking per se and have joined the ranks of modern art. I speak of makers like Moran, Loveless, Walker and Lake who have moved past what the definition of a knife is, into a sector of modern Americana.
They command a unique appeal so let's forget them for the moment...........

At the end of the day there are a small minority of makers who produce top quality, sought after work. They are constantly selling out and they constantly have long order lists. Why? because they are the cream and buyers/collectors want a representation of their work.

Many mid-range makers complain about the economy, the difficult customers etc.....but in reality the knives are simply not of a standard to command mass collectors appeal and top prices.

When I approach a table and I see superb work........I want to buy it. And if I am lucky enough to aquire it at a good price because the maker is still relatively unknown, so much the better.

When I approach a table and I see 30 mediocre plain users with Micarta handles, untapered tangs and kydex sheaths my first thought is not "does this fit my collection?" but rather "Do I want one as a user/belt knife" This does not mean that they are not excellent knives, correctly heat treated and well ground but most serious collectors move past buying knives like this relatively quickly.

I am very active here in the South African Guild and I try hard to constantly tell makers.......Make less knives better, than more knives mediocre.
We have a young man here in the South African Guild currently who I know will be a top maker one day, and I have been encouraging him to produce less knives but at a much higher standard. Emulating men like Johnson and Young.

I think that it is very important for knifemakers to remember who the collectors are, how they got to where they are today and what they want for the future. Understanding your customer is key to giving them what they want to buy.

 

[Buffalohump]

Yes, its called the UKPK and it was specifically made for the UK market because they too aren't allowed to carry locking folders over a certain length that can be opened with one hand. I dont know why we're even arguing about this.

Which is what, 99% of one hand openers? Come on, why split hairs?

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

There are makers who have transcended knifemaking per se and have joined the ranks of modern art. I speak of makers like Moran, Loveless, Walker and Lake who have moved past what the definition of a knife is, into a sector of modern Americana.
They command a unique appeal so let's forget them for the moment...........

At the end of the day there are a small minority of makers who produce top quality, sought after work. They are constantly selling out and they constantly have long order lists. Why? because they are the cream and buyers/collectors want a representation of their work.

Many mid-range makers complain about the economy, the difficult customers etc.....but in reality the knives are simply not of a standard to command mass collectors appeal and top prices.

When I approach a table and I see superb work........I want to buy it. And if I am lucky enough to aquire it at a good price because the maker is still relatively unknown, so much the better.

When I approach a table and I see 30 mediocre plain users with Micarta handles, untapered tangs and kydex sheaths my first thought is not "does this fit my collection?" but rather "Do I want one as a user/belt knife" This does not mean that they are not excellent knives, correctly heat treated and well ground but most serious collectors move past buying knives like this relatively quickly.

I am very active here in the South African Guild and I try hard to constantly tell makers.......Make less knives better, than more knives mediocre.
We have a young man here in the South African Guild currently who I know will be a top maker one day, and I have been encouraging him to produce less knives but at a much higher standard. Emulating men like Johnson and Young.

I think that it is very important for knifemakers to remember who the collectors are, how they got to where they are today and what they want for the future. Understanding your customer is key to giving them what they want to buy.

Excellent post! I have highlighted the parts I liked best.

Perhaps it is just my ignorance, but I am guessing that - in general - Steinau, Loerchner, Hancock, Walker, Sfreddo, Appleton, Esposito, etc., etc., do not have too much difficulty finding buyers for their knives.

Go thou and do likewise.

 

[Chuck Gedraitis Knives]

The problem that arises from making less knives and putting more into them is that you go from appealing to 80% of the knife community to 20%. Your customer base gets smaller.

Say that in 1 week one maker makes 1 knife valued at $3000
Another maker makes 10 drop point hunters valued at $300 each = $3000

It is easier to find 10 people to spend $300 on 1 knife than 1 person to spend $3000.

A maker can spend as much time as he wants on a knife but if no one knows who they are it won't sell.

Steinau, Loerchner, Hancock, Walker, Sfreddo, Appleton, Esposito, etc., etc have spent years building a customer base and are at the top of their game but not everyone can afford one of their knives. They also started out making basic knives and as their skills increased so did the quality of their knives.

If your supporting a family making knives then making less knives in not always an option. Making more knives also gets them into the hands of more people thus increasing your customer base.

 

[Steven65]

It is easier to find 10 people to spend $300 on 1 knife than 1 person to spend $3000.

A maker can spend as much time as he wants on a knife but if no one knows who they are it won't sell.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with making a $300-00 knife but remember this.......Selling 10 knives over 1 requires a maker to find 1000% more customers than selling one knife.

One knife at $3000 is a extreme example........Perhaps a happy medium is to make 3 awesome knives at 1K each rather than 10 mediocre knives.

How many times have I been at a show when a maker shows up with a superb "full house" piece commenting to me that he thinks it is too expensive and doubts that it will sell..............It is often the first knife to sell. Collectors, (serious collectors) want better knives, not more of the same ones.

When a maker appear at a Show with an awesome knife that really has his heart and soul in it and everyone comes over, pics it up, photographs it, and comments about it, the maker is doing far more for his reputation and marketing than he will ever do with 10 $300-00 knives. That is how you build a reputation and get well known.

Also a brilliant knife will find a collector/customer who wants to own an amazing piece. They tend to sell themselves.

There are a number of talented makers that began in obscurity but because each piece was executed brilliantly and to a superb standard they quickly gained popularity and collector patronage.

It is only buy making the special pieces which are photographed and purchased by collectors that a reputation is built. Making $300-00 users will not advance any maker into serious collector status.

 

[RogerP]

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with making a $300-00 knife but remember this.......Selling 10 knives over 1 requires a maker to find 1000% more customers than selling one knife.

One knife at $3000 is a extreme example........Perhaps a happy medium is to make 3 awesome knives at 1K each rather than 10 mediocre knives.

How many times have I been at a show when a maker shows up with a superb "full house" piece commenting to me that he thinks it is too expensive and doubts that it will sell..............It is often the first knife to sell. Collectors, (serious collectors) want better knives, not more of the same ones.

It bears mentioning that price is by no means an exclusive indicator of quality. You can have a mediocre $1000 knife and an awesome $300 knife. The serious collector will choose the latter over the former. I have made single purchases of knives ranging from $150 to $5000. There are sound purchases to be made across a very broad spectrum of prices.

Roger

 

[stabman]

Yes, its called the UKPK and it was specifically made for the UK market because they too aren't allowed to carry locking folders over a certain length that can be opened with one hand. I dont know why we're even arguing about this.

And the Urban...for USA markets.
Boker makes a one-hand opening slip joint. Maybe more than one; I didn't check that far.
There are others out there too.

 

[Steven65]

It bears mentioning that price is by no means an exclusive indicator of quality. You can have a mediocre $1000 knife and an awesome $300 knife. The serious collector will choose the latter over the former. I have made single purchases of knives ranging from $150 to $5000. There are sound purchases to be made across a very broad spectrum of prices.Roger

You are of course 100% correct. I was simply using the numbers to illustrate my point.

 

[flatgrinder]

Bob Loveless wanted a knifemaker on every corner, seems like wishes come true.

There are some makers who make "working knives" and others that make "art knives" -for a whole spectrum of budgets ..... Personally, I feel that there is plenty of work to go around for everyone.

Not every maker will make a "collectible" knife, but give 'em time and they will learn to make one hell of a knife!

Buy what you like and let the work speak for itself.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

The problem that arises from making less knives and putting more into them is that you go from appealing to 80% of the knife community to 20%. Your customer base gets smaller.

Say that in 1 week one maker makes 1 knife valued at $3000
Another maker makes 10 drop point hunters valued at $300 each = $3000

It is easier to find 10 people to spend $300 on 1 knife than 1 person to spend $3000.

Yes. And it is also easier to find a ton of knifemakers who can make a good $300 knife . . . and hard for any maker to stand out in such a large crowd. It approaches a fungible commodity.

Many fewer makers can (or at least do) make a terrific, remarkable, unique, $3000 knife - nevermind a $10,000 knife that offers value in that market. Those few who can and do seem (to me) to sell pretty much all they make.

A maker can spend as much time as he wants on a knife but if no one knows who they are it won't sell.

Steinau, Loerchner, Hancock, Walker, Sfreddo, Appleton, Esposito, etc., etc have spent years building a customer base and are at the top of their game but not everyone can afford one of their knives. They also started out making basic knives and as their skills increased so did the quality of their knives.

See, I took that as Alfaholic's point. A knifemaker who wants to be financially successful should push himself/herself. Get out of the comfort zone. Visualize himself in the league of those makers and develop a plan to get there. Take the risks and do the work to make higher quality pieces. Elevate quality, and then add exceptional features, designs, embellishments, and high end materials. Or continue making the same $300 knives and "complain about the economy, the difficult customers, etc."

 

[RogerP]

The problem that arises from making less knives and putting more into them is that you go from appealing to 80% of the knife community to 20%. Your customer base gets smaller.

Say that in 1 week one maker makes 1 knife valued at $3000
Another maker makes 10 drop point hunters valued at $300 each = $3000

It is easier to find 10 people to spend $300 on 1 knife than 1 person to spend $3000.

Correct. But it's not an either / or proposition - both can be a path to success. Anyone claiming it must be one way or the other has it wrong, IMO. The individual maker has to know his market, and have a plan to get where he hopes to be. That might mean selling more knives at a moderate price for one maker. It might mean selling comparatively few at a much higher price for another. But for the vast majority of makers, it likely means a mix - with knives covering an entry level price point (which will vary) to the top of the line with the majority of pieces falling between those points. I've seen very few makers really succeed with a very narrow top-end-only pricing strategy. And those that have, likely didn't start there.