Are they clones/ knock offs?

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So I have been coming A crossed these Orange Sog twitch ii and Ontario rat 1 from what I know I don't think sog ever made a twitch in orange same with Ontario an the rat 1 can somebody tell me if these are knock offs really like to know because if they're not I definitely want them.
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If they are on eBay, they are fake... I'm wanting to say I've seen both on there and the seller sells numerous clones.


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I'm not sure about the twitch because I don't know SOG that we'll, but I'm fairly certain the RAT is a clone. The first tip off to me are the silver screws. Every RAT I've seen has black hardware. Also, I don't think there's ever been an orange RAT. Same thing with the yellow, blue and camo RATs you may see.
 
I found a picture of a knockoff Twitch 2, from a website with a gate in it's name.

Just looking at the picture, the non-SOG knife would be very hard to tell from the genuine article.
 
I can't say for the RAT, because I know one of the dealer exclusives had orange scales, but the Twitch is 100%, fake as far as I know there has never been a G10 model or one with scales in anything aside from aluminum or wood.
 
Wonder why they are bothering to knock off such a relatively affordable folder? Surely there is better returns elsewhere.
 
The Rat is made in Taiwan and for a 25 dollar knife it rivals many I've owned in the 100 buck range.

Never held the Rat clone but I highly doubt it is of the same quality.
 
The clones, have the blade marked with whatever steel the real deal uses and it's never actually that steel.
 
The clones, have the blade marked with whatever steel the real deal uses and it's never actually that steel.

What about warranty work? Customer service?
Not to mention integrity, honesty and rectitude...
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Eta: knifeworks is a paid member and the satin blade/orange handle OKW rat 1 is an exclusive for them (as well as the rat 2).
OKW Rat 1 Orange/Satin
 
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Are you saying clones in general or just these rat knives?

Regarding clones/copies/other "trash"...
That's the problem, there is no way to know for sure.if you are going to be spending money, isn't your peace of mind worth the few extra $?

If someone is willing to steal a design, lock, idea or otherwise from another, what makes yu think they would be honest with you?

I make money honestly and I want to support honest knife makers and companies alike. Regardless of country of origin.
 
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That's the problem, there is no way to know for sure.if you are going to be spending money, isn't your peace of mind worth the few extra $?

If someone is willing to steal a design, lock, idea or otherwise from another, what makes yu think they would be honest with you?

I make money honestly and I want to support honest knife makers and companies alike. Regardless of country of origin.

Well. I really don't know how in depth I can go without being crucified but here are a few things I know about the current state of cloning knives. 1. a few of these companies make clones under one brand name and then make originals in another brand. So if you trust one of these particular brands the clone companies ghost build for you are actually buying a knife from the same factory that makes clones. You just don't know it.

2. If I am going to say that if a company steals a design or patent and therefore cant trust anything they do from there on out I also have to remove my faith in quite a few other brands many people respect. I would have to stop buying shirogorov, lionsteel, microtech among others.

3. Some clones have been tested and found to use the higher end steels they claim to be using. And like I said some of these companies make knives for brands regularly shown on this forum. But people just don't know they are made in the same factory as certain clones. So they have access to the steel and other materials of very high quality such as 100% void free carbon fiber that many companies will tell you doesn't exist.

Now I'm not denying that many of these companies making clones don't use exactly what is advertised. You are not going to get a $60 clone of a $600 knife and get an elmax blade. But some of these factories do use what they say they use such as s35vn and M390. Some have actually been tested and found to be using what they claim. But no one really knows how good any of their heat treat and tempering processes are. So I will admit, even if you do get a knife with s35vn its hard to know for sure how good the heat treat is.

Then there is the subject of Chinese equivalent steels. Some like to point out that a company is lying in china if they claim they are using 440C or D2. I don't actually agree that its dishonesty at play. The problem is there is no one company that makes 440C. And any steel being used can be called that as long as its chemical composition falls within the parameters for that type of steel. And if you are going to market your products to the knife community many will understand what 440C is rather than the confusing alph-numerical names most Chinese equivalent steels use. I will never again condone cloning or counterfeiting on this forum. I really don't like it when these Chinese factories use illegal logos and false specifications. But even though I don't like certain aspects about it I do believe in being truthful if we are holding them to that same standard. And with that in mind I cant get behind stating that these clone companies never tell the truth about their materials when I know that isn't always the case and it depends on what you are buying and from whom. If we are demanding honesty we should be sure we aren't using fallacies to drive our point home. 10 years ago it may have been true that china didn't have the access or the technology to use these higher end materials. But we are seeing in china what we saw in japan in the 70's and 80's. And they have the machines and access to the materials now. All I'm saying is that if you wont believe that a $200 clone from china has S35VN you probably shouldn't believe Todd begg's Steelcraft knives have it either. Again I'm not condoning or advocating for clones or counterfeiting. I just think the facts and honesty are just as important on our end as it should be theirs.
 
Regarding clones/copies/other "trash"...
That's the problem, there is no way to know for sure.if you are going to be spending money, isn't your peace of mind worth the few extra $?

If someone is willing to steal a design, lock, idea or otherwise from another, what makes yu think they would be honest with you?

I make money honestly and I want to support honest knife makers and companies alike. Regardless of country of origin.

I agree with you in principle but in real life most things are stolen and directly copied or stolen and then slightly modified.

Don't look at the patents for KAI if someone stealing things gets your blood boiling. They've taken designs and features that someone else created and just because the other person didn't immediately patent the idea KAI did. Several times. Same with benchmade. I can't find the same issues with Spyderco. As a matter if fact, Spyderco is the only big knife company I can think of that either comes up with their own ideas or is completely up front and honest about giving credit to the creator of the design/feature. They won't even add a frame lock to a knife without saying Reeve Integral Lock (instead of changing the name to distance the actual creator) or put a liner lock in without saying the name Walker.

It's too early to go digging through patents but all you need to do is search on Google for KAI patents or whatever you need to do to verify for yourself. But several times they've either directly ripped off a designer or ripped it off and modified it just enough to claim as their own. Yet I'll still buy another ZT if I like the knife. I'd also buy a Kevin John knife if the quality and price beat the original. But not if the item was a true counterfeit rather than an obvious generic. That crosses the line both morally and legally. Anything else is just business and finding a company that doesn't do it at all is hard, and that's in any type of product you can think of. Almost all product manufacturing is, for the most part, is taking something that already exists and modifying it to make it better or manufacturing it at a cheaper cost. That's life and something not really worth getting upset about.

coun·ter·feit
ˈkoun(t)ərˌfit/
adjective
1.
made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

The knives in the OP meet this definition.

But regarding your statement, what would you think of a high quality direct copy, not counterfeit, made by a company with outstanding customer and warranty service who backs their products up without question? Would it still be bad? No, not for most people. So the issue isn't with the copying, per se, it's with the companies being shady and not standing behind their product. That's why KAI is doing so well. Because their customer and warranty service is so good. If they failed in those two areas people would have already looked into and found out for themselves the negative aspects of the company and spoken about them at length. Instead they're just happy to have a quality product with an outstanding warranty at a decent price and the dark side of the business isn't an issue. That's life. And it's most definitely business.

If KAI was honest they'd call the sub-frame lock a Reeve Integral Lock with material covering a portion of a large lock bar cutout. But instead they patented it as a completely new concept. And that's just one thing, and a small one at that.
 
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