Are they clones/ knock offs?

Status
Not open for further replies.
bodog said:
That seems like a false argument you just made, intended to distract. It doesn't really make any point at all and definitely doesn't contribute whatsoever to the conversation.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you feel that way. If you feel I'm trolling you should report it.

I stand by my point. I don't understand why someone passionate enough about knives to come here and talk about them, would look the other way when companies steal other company's designs/technology.

If I was passionate about toilet brushes or coffee pots, I'm sure I would feel the same way bout their designs too. But I'm not.

Again, sorry my take is not up to your standards for discourse. Though it seems that the site's owner agrees with it.
 
marcinek said:
I'm sorry you feel that way. If you feel I'm trolling you should report it.

I stand by my point. I don't understand why someone passionate enough about knives to come here and talk about them, would look the other way when companies steal other company's designs/technology.

If I was passionate about toilet brushes or coffee pots, I'm sure I would feel the same way bout their designs too. But I'm not.

Again, sorry my take is not up to your standards for discourse. Though it seems that the site's owner agrees with it.
Click to expand...

But, given what you see on this forum on a day to day basis since 2007. Wouldn't you say that many are much more tolerant of IP theft if the theft is done outside the borders of Asia? That's what I don't understand.
 
Hickory n steel said:
I thought that sog knives are made in China now , I know the seal pup currently is.


BTW I forgot about the rat 1 being made in Taiwan.
Click to expand...

Best to look up the information before you say it. SOGs are made in Taiwan, China, Japan, and in the USA. Their SAT folders are all assembled in the USA. You can't blanket the entire company with the made in China statement.
 
PURPLEDC said:
I'm not sure if the ganzo situation is different. I was speaking on the clones in general. There are collectors of knives in china and while the laws have been made more strict since 2008 many report they are not enforced as much as many would think. I don't live in china though so I have no idea what the truth is about the enforcement of the laws. But I can say we have some pretty draconian knife laws that not everyone follows as well. But the main point is that they make the products yes. But these things don't have distribution networks in the United states. They get here and other parts of the world because individuals import them. They are not being sold to distribution centers and sold on USA based sites. If you live in the states and get ripped off by one of these products you are most likely being ripped off by a fellow American. Basically what I am getting at is we as Americans are responsible for these things entering the country. China isn't shipping them hear by the boat load and having Chinese americans sell them here.
Click to expand...

You can buy them in bulk directly from China. They have a USA support number. They are made for our market as well as many others. Yes, the buyer is a main player in the problem. If there were no drug users there would be no drug dealers and all that jazz. But still, Ganzo and the other companies play a huge roll....
 
PURPLEDC said:
Wouldn't you say that many are much more tolerant of IP theft if the theft is done outside the borders of Asia? That's what I don't understand.
Click to expand...

This.

I have to agree . There does seem to be a double standard for much of the knives produced outside the US. Of course, if we spent all of our time stressing about IP theft and where something is made on all of the products we try to use, nothing would get done.

Someone I respect once said, "Try a little harder, to be a little better." You can't be perfect in your quest to stamp out clones and IP theft in your daily life but, you can take small steps to avoid it as you learn about it. Sometimes it is not practical to worry about it though. You just can not avoid it 100%.
 
PURPLEDC said:
But, given what you see on this forum on a day to day basis since 2007. Wouldn't you say that many are much more tolerant of IP theft if the theft is done outside the borders of Asia? That's what I don't understand.
Click to expand...

I would say yes. Just like folks will bash knives made in China for no other reason than they are made in China. That is not right either. Crappy knives can be made in any country just like quality knives. I've rallied that cry for years.

The argument of "well in other industries copying happens all the time" is different though. That mind set is the first step towards accepting the idea of counterfeit knives.

This is a knife forum so when this topic comes up I talk about it as it relates to this hobby and even more specifically to this community. Other knife forum communities are fine with counterfeit knives. We are not. That is the opinion here. It is in the rules. So when people try to legitimize it with any number of arguments we can say, "No. You are wrong."

And how do you guys know I don't defend IP theft on toiletbowlcleaners.com? :D
 
craytab said:
I would say yes. Just like folks will bash knives made in China for no other reason than they are made in China. That is not right either. Crappy knives can be made in any country just like quality knives. I've rallied that cry for years.

The argument of "well in other industries copying happens all the time" is different though. That mind set is the first step towards accepting the idea of counterfeit knives.

This is a knife forum so when this topic comes up I talk about it as it relates to this hobby and even more specifically to this community. Other knife forum communities are fine with counterfeit knives. We are not. That is the opinion here. It is in the rules. So when people try to legitimize it with any number of arguments we can say, "No. You are wrong."

And how do you guys know I don't defend IP theft on toiletbowlcleaners.com? :D
Click to expand...

Wow, way to put words in mouths. No one is defending IP theft. People are defending certain amounts of copying and innovation. And others are not necessarily defending anything, they're just saying how it is in the real world. And others are saying if you attack certain companies for copying, then attack them all, not just the ones you have cherry picked for the attack.
 
bodog said:
Wow, way to put words in mouths. No one is defending IP theft. People are defending certain amounts of copying and innovation. And others are not necessarily defending anything, they're just saying how it is in the real world. And others are saying if you attack certain companies for copying, then attack them all, not just the ones you have cherry picked for the attack.
Click to expand...

Contradiction. Proves my point.
 
craytab said:
I would say yes. Just like folks will bash knives made in China for no other reason than they are made in China. That is not right either. Crappy knives can be made in any country just like quality knives. I've rallied that cry for years.

The argument of "well in other industries copying happens all the time" is different though. That mind set is the first step towards accepting the idea of counterfeit knives.

This is a knife forum so when this topic comes up I talk about it as it relates to this hobby and even more specifically to this community. Other knife forum communities are fine with counterfeit knives. We are not. That is the opinion here. It is in the rules. So when people try to legitimize it with any number of arguments we can say, "No. You are wrong."

And how do you guys know I don't defend IP theft on toiletbowlcleaners.com? :D
Click to expand...

Oh trust me im not saying that because counterfeiting is a problem with all products that we should just accept it and condone it. The point I was more trying to make is that if the people speaking out against counterfeiting are only doing it when they see it happening in knives that it seems more like white knighting for a cause you dont really care all that much about. Kinda like you cant be a member of peta if you only care about puppy stomping but dont want to hear about the seals or whales. Either way, I think one thing that should be said is that no matter what my personal views are and what I choose to buy for myself I dont ever want to see a day when clones and counterfeits are openly discussed or promoted on this forum. It took me a long time to learn this but this is a community. And as I have been reminded a private one where the rules are clear. Free speech doesnt apply. And I want to respect the rules and desires of this community so as to remain a part of it. I dont need to convert others or share everything to feel i am a part of this place.
 
I just wanted to say that normally counterfeiting inexpensive knives makes no sense, but in this case it makes total sense.
They're giving people something the original knives don't, which is the large variety of color choices without having to get custom scales or a dealer exclusive.

Counterfeiting isn't good , but maybe sog and Ontario should release some more colors.
 
PURPLEDC said:
Oh trust me im not saying that because counterfeiting is a problem with all products that we should just accept it and condone it. The point I was more trying to make is that if the people speaking out against counterfeiting are only doing it when they see it happening in knives that it seems more like white knighting for a cause you dont really care all that much about. Kinda like you cant be a member of peta if you only care about puppy stomping but dont want to hear about the seals or whales. Either way, I think one thing that should be said is that no matter what my personal views are and what I choose to buy for myself I dont ever want to see a day when clones and counterfeits are openly discussed or promoted on this forum. It took me a long time to learn this but this is a community. And as I have been reminded a private one where the rules are clear. Free speech doesnt apply. And I want to respect the rules and desires of this community so as to remain a part of it. I dont need to convert others or share everything to feel i am a part of this place.
Click to expand...

I get what you are saying and agree. That said this is a knife forum so when the topic of counterfeiting comes up the discussion involves knives. Far too many times the same people walk in and say "well this industry copies stuff, it's no different than the knife industry" as a way to justify their counterfeit/clone/knock off knives. It is one of the more classic excuses. And some people even use examples of knife companies they have a long standing issue with.
 
bodog said:
Don't look at the patents for KAI if someone stealing things gets your blood boiling. They've taken designs and features that someone else created and just because the other person didn't immediately patent the idea KAI did. Several times.

It's too early to go digging through patents but all you need to do is search on Google for KAI patents or whatever you need to do to verify for yourself. But several times they've either directly ripped off a designer or ripped it off and modified it just enough to claim as their own.


If KAI was honest they'd call the sub-frame lock a Reeve Integral Lock with material covering a portion of a large lock bar cutout. But instead they patented it as a completely new concept. And that's just one thing, and a small one at that.
Click to expand...

Guess you don't understand how patents and the patent process work.

https://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-information-concerning-patents#heading-3
 
I love how a thread asking about if it's a Knockoff Turned into a Thread bashing companies and there Patents....

Well keeping on track with the thread I have stopped the Sale of 4 ZT0801CF Clones... It was sad as most were bought believing it was real for alot of $$ for a $40 Clone
 
bodog said:
I agree with you in principle but in real life most things are stolen and directly copied or stolen and then slightly modified.

Don't look at the patents for KAI if someone stealing things gets your blood boiling. They've taken designs and features that someone else created and just because the other person didn't immediately patent the idea KAI did. Several times. Same with benchmade. I can't find the same issues with Spyderco. As a matter if fact, Spyderco is the only big knife company I can think of that either comes up with their own ideas or is completely up front and honest about giving credit to the creator of the design/feature. They won't even add a frame lock to a knife without saying Reeve Integral Lock (instead of changing the name to distance the actual creator) or put a liner lock in without saying the name Walker.

It's too early to go digging through patents but all you need to do is search on Google for KAI patents or whatever you need to do to verify for yourself. But several times they've either directly ripped off a designer or ripped it off and modified it just enough to claim as their own. Yet I'll still buy another ZT if I like the knife. I'd also buy a Kevin John knife if the quality and price beat the original. But not if the item was a true counterfeit rather than an obvious generic. That crosses the line both morally and legally. Anything else is just business and finding a company that doesn't do it at all is hard, and that's in any type of product you can think of. Almost all product manufacturing is, for the most part, is taking something that already exists and modifying it to make it better or manufacturing it at a cheaper cost. That's life and something not really worth getting upset about.

coun·ter·feit
ˈkoun(t)ərˌfit/
adjective
1.
made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

The knives in the OP meet this definition.

But regarding your statement, what would you think of a high quality direct copy, not counterfeit, made by a company with outstanding customer and warranty service who backs their products up without question? Would it still be bad? No, not for most people. So the issue isn't with the copying, per se, it's with the companies being shady and not standing behind their product. That's why KAI is doing so well. Because their customer and warranty service is so good. If they failed in those two areas people would have already looked into and found out for themselves the negative aspects of the company and spoken about them at length. Instead they're just happy to have a quality product with an outstanding warranty at a decent price and the dark side of the business isn't an issue. That's life. And it's most definitely business.

If KAI was honest they'd call the sub-frame lock a Reeve Integral Lock with material covering a portion of a large lock bar cutout. But instead they patented it as a completely new concept. And that's just one thing, and a small one at that.
Click to expand...

There are no words for the amount of garbage you just spewed out of your keyboard. All I can say is you are a very misinformed person. Perhaps check out the link above^
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top