Are they clones/ knock offs?

[NJBillK]

What about warranty work? Customer service?
Not to mention integrity, honesty and rectitude...
------
Eta: knifeworks is a paid member and the satin blade/orange handle OKW rat 1 is an exclusive for them (as well as the rat 2).
OKW Rat 1 Orange/Satin

<snip>
If KAI was honest they'd call the sub-frame lock a Reeve Integral Lock with material covering a portion of a large lock bar cutout. But instead they patented it as a completely new concept. And that's just one thing, and a small one at that.

One thing to keep in mind is that Chris Reeve didn't patent the frame lock and chose to let the public have it. So whole it was his invention, he doesn't claim "ownership" in form of financial compensation.
Due to that, anyone else was free to use, change, correct, or do whatever to it, as they saw fit. (Put the cut out on the inside or outside, cover or not, play with the cuts angles to adjust tension, et al).

If you took a Benchmade griptilian and had it made by Rockstead (without credit and consent) and they only changed the alloy used in the blade to one of their "proprietary" alloys or used their HT recipe, and went to hand it to me free of charge, I would still turn it down...
The principal doesn't change, just the variables that make up the equation...

You seem to be replying myself when speaking about the warranty, customer service, et al.
What about replying to what I "highlighted" in boldface?

You can cherry pick your response, but don't expect me to not call you on it.

Much like I am doing with your post.
Too bad I work in the food industry and don't have time to post at will, so I will address any other posts or points, if I see fit later on in the day.

 

[PURPLEDC]

One thing to keep in mind is that Chris Reeve didn't patent the frame lock and chose to let the public have it. So whole it was his invention, he doesn't claim "ownership" in form of financial compensation.
Due to that, anyone else was free to use, change, correct, or do whatever to it, as they saw fit. (Put the cut out on the inside or outside, cover or not, play with the cuts angles to adjust tension, et al).

If you took a Benchmade griptilian and had it made by Rockstead (without credit and consent) and they only changed the alloy used in the blade to one of their "proprietary" alloys or used their HT recipe, and went to hand it to me free of charge, I would still turn it down...
The principal doesn't change, just the variables that make up the equation...

You seem to be replying myself when speaking about the warranty, customer service, et al.
What about replying to what I "highlighted" in boldface?

You can cherry pick your response, but don't expect me to not call you on it.

Much like I am doing with your post.
Too bad I work in the food industry and don't have time to post at will, so I will address any other posts or points, if I see fit later on in the day.

You didn't respond to me though. What about microtech, cold steel, Lionsteel, and shirogorov? They all have taken IP without asking. Cold steel was forced to change a lock design that was on its ak-47 for being too close to the axis lock. And both lionsteel and shirogorov stole the axis lock and use it on domestic folders to this day. They just don't ship them to the United states for obvious reasons. These are of course all knives that are not intended to be sold and distributed in the USA. And that is because USA laws don't apply to countries outside the USA. The same gos for many Chinese clones made for their domestic market. They have no distribution in the USA. But individuals seek them out and import them for personal use. But make no mistake, those companies did exactly what you have a problem with. Will you now not consider a purchase from any of these brands? Oh, and you can toss boker in that mix as well. I'm not saying you should like IP theft. But the same rules should apply to all companies. Not just the ones from Asia.

 

[bodog]

One thing to keep in mind is that Chris Reeve didn't patent the frame lock and chose to let the public have it. So whole it was his invention, he doesn't claim "ownership" in form of financial compensation.

If you took a Benchmade griptilian and had it made by Rockstead (without credit and consent) and they only changed the alloy used in the blade to one of their "proprietary" alloys or used their HT recipe, and went to hand it to me free of charge, I would still turn it down...
The principal doesn't change, just the variables that make up the equation...

You seem to be replying myself when speaking about the warranty, customer service, et al.
What about replying to what I "highlighted" in boldface?

You can cherry pick your response, but don't expect me to not call you on it.

Look around you right now. How many things are truly original?

Taking something that's not patented and producing a similar product cheaper or of higher quality or with features that the original doesn't come with is business. It's not unethical or illegal. If you wanted a truly original car you'd be driving a steam powered contraption from the late 19th century.

If you wanted a truly original pocket knife it wouldn't come close to resembling whatever ripped off and modified design you carry right now.

If you wanted a truly original refrigerator you still have some kind of rudimentary insulated box with ice blocks to keep it cold.

I can't get upset with any business that produces something cheaper with acceptable quality, higher quality, or with modified features that I like more than the original. Not if the company isn't purposefully breaking the law. You think the shirt you're wearing was made in the original way? Things progress and sometimes good manufacturers find themselves outdated and outclassed. That's what real life is. If a Chinese company can outclass American companies then let it happen. The problem with that is our govt keeps our companies from innovating and producing products at the same rate as China (hopefully not for much longer, like January 2017 timeframe) That's political so I'll stop there.

But you can't pick and choose. If you did you'd be stuck back in medieval times with a lot of the stuff we currently use. If these things HADN'T been ripped off then no one would try to ever do anything better.

Personally I hold no issue against Charmin for ripping off the idea of compressed hay and reed paper sheets and making that better and at a price I can afford. Do you?

 

[bodog]

You didn't respond to me though. What about microtech, cold steel, Lionsteel, and shirogorov? They all have taken IP without asking. Cold steel was forced to change a lock design that was on its ak-47 for being too close to the axis lock. And both lionsteel and shirogorov stole the axis lock and use it on domestic folders to this day. They just don't ship them to the United states for obvious reasons. These are of course all knives that are not intended to be sold and distributed in the USA. And that is because USA laws don't apply to countries outside the USA. The same gos for many Chinese clones made for their domestic market. They have no distribution in the USA. But individuals seek them out and import them for personal use. But make no mistake, those companies did exactly what you have a problem with. Will you now not consider a purchase from any of these brands? Oh, and you can toss boker in that mix as well. I'm not saying you should like IP theft. But the same rules should apply to all companies. Not just the ones from Asia.

Fair statement

 

[marcinek]

The gimping and logo look off too...

Yeah. 95 times out of 100 the logo or the font on the blade or off with these clones. The SOG is way off. I see no Sog Twich ii logos that match that one...the current one on the SOG site is entirely different.

Then look at "Model" on the "Ontario". The letters are kinda crunched together and bumping. Just doesn't look right.

 

[craytab]

Yeah. 95 times out of 100 the logo or the font on the blade or off with these clones. The SOG is way off. I see no Sog Twich ii logos that match that one...the current one on the SOG site is entirely different.

Then look at "Model" on the "Ontario". The letters are kinda crunched together and bumping. Just doesn't look right.

To be fair, SOG changes their logo a lot. That is a copy of the last iteration of logos. The biggest clue is that the only place you can find an orange twitch like that is shipped from China. Not bashing Chinese products. Just saying that 99% of the counterfeit/clone/knock off knives are made there.

I love it when these discussion turn into talking about a knock off coffee pot or toilet bowl brush. Then I remember this is a knife forum and this is General Knife discussion. And sorry, but to say the Asian counterfeits are produced for there own market is not correct. Lock knives are against the law so producing a locking knife for the Chinese market in the quantities we see is pointless. Also, Ganzo doesn't produce for the united states then why do they have a US support number out of NYC? I guess it is just for their non-axis lock products.....

 

[marcinek]

To be fair, SOG changes their logo a lot. That is a copy of the last iteration of logos.

Which I believe also contained the "knife splitting a bullet" graphic.

But they do change often.

 

[NJBillK]

You didn't respond to me though. What about microtech, cold steel, Lionsteel, and shirogorov? <snip>
Not just the ones from Asia.

Regardless of country of origin.

I dont own any of their knives and I do not plan on doing so.

Aside from knives (which this forum is about, though I will entertain the conversation), I do have a fridge, a car (not a Ford Model A) and other objects that were invented by others and I do not have an issue with it. Primarily because I did not buy a fraudulent Model A, I didn't buy a knock off washboard for my laundry, I didn't buy an imitation GE refrigerator that was initially released as another brands model.

I am not against the improvementof an idea, intellectual property, or correction of a design "flaw" if another realizes it and is able to capitalize on it, if and only if it is done within the context of legality within the U.S..

Why just the U.S.? Because that is where I live. Take that as greedy, selfish, whatever... I view it (incorrectly or not) about my integrity and the ability that I have to sleep at night.

If companies didn't want to make knives for others markets, why do the offer them with locks but blur them out on their site due to legal restrictions in their own country?

If they are trying to offer them for their own country alone, why make them with illegal locks?
Why have contact phone nimber registered in NYC but no listrd address?

There is more to this than we want what they are offering. If other people don't care about the rectitude involved in purchasing an outright copy, then I don't let it bother me. I just choose to try to not purchase them due to their lack of honesty or differing moral compass.

 

[bodog]

To be fair, SOG changes their logo a lot. That is a copy of the last iteration of logos. The biggest clue is that the only place you can find an orange twitch like that is shipped from China. Not bashing Chinese products. Just saying that 99% of the counterfeit/clone/knock off knives are made there.

I love it when these discussion turn into talking about a knock off coffee pot or toilet bowl brush. Then I remember this is a knife forum and this is General Knife discussion. And sorry, but to say the Asian counterfeits are produced for there own market is not correct. Lock knives are against the law so producing a locking knife for the Chinese market in the quantities we see is pointless. Also, Ganzo doesn't produce for the united states then why do they have a US support number out of NYC? I guess it is just for their non-axis lock products.....

Well if your world only consists of knives or you're able to hold standards to knifemakers but not anyone else then there's no real talking to you. Most people are able to make valid comparisons between knives and other products they see everyday without it being an issue. Are you saying you can't? Or that people shouldn't be able to make valid comparisons of knives to other products? The main point and issue is knives so what's the problem? Are you just looking to start problems again?

 

[Hackenslash]

I think calling a KAI Sub-Frame lock a Reeve Integral Lock is a little like calling a Reeve Integral Lock a "Walker Liner Lock without a blade scale". It just doesn't make sense to me.

Sometimes patents are baby steps over a previous innovation, sometimes a quantum leap. Blame the USPO, not the designers who play within the rules available to them.

 

[bodog]

I dont own any of their knives and I do not plan on doing so.

Aside from knives (which this forum is about, though I will entertain the conversation), I do have a fridge, a car (not a Ford Model A) and other objects that were invented by others and I do not have an issue with it. Primarily because I did not buy a fraudulent Model A, I didn't buy a knock off washboard for my laundry, I didn't buy an imitation GE refrigerator that was initially released as another brands model.

I am not against the improvementof an idea, intellectual property, or correction of a design "flaw" if another realizes it and is able to capitalize on it, if and only if it is done within the context of legality within the U.S..

Why just the U.S.? Because that is where I live. Take that as greedy, selfish, whatever... I view it (incorrectly or not) about my integrity and the ability that I have to sleep at night.

If companies didn't want to make knives for others markets, why do the offer them with locks but blur them out on their site due to legal restrictions in their own country?

If they are trying to offer them for their own country alone, why make them with illegal locks?
Why have contact phone nimber registered in NYC but no listrd address?

There is more to this than we want what they are offering. If other people don't care about the rectitude involved in purchasing an outright copy, then I don't let it bother me. I just choose to try to not purchase them due to their lack of honesty or differing moral compass.

Do you or can you recognize the difference between a counterfeit and a copy? Literally everything you just mentioned are direct copies or modified copies and you said you are fine with that. But then you equated all of those with counterfeit knives which most aren't ok with and then you said copying was bad, even though everything you said you are OK with is a copy.

So copies or modified copies of things outside of the knife world is ok. Counterfeit anything is bad. Copies of knives or knife maintenance tools is bad. I think that sums up your position but what I'm trying to understand why you believe generics or direct copies or modified copies of things outside the knife world is ok but generics or direct copies or modified copies of things within the knife world is bad. Why is there a disconnect? Why are you insulating knives and knife related products and holding these specific companies to standards you won't hold other companies to?

I'm not saying you're wrong, only that it makes no sense to me why you make the distinction. It's a pretty common thing for people to do and I'm only trying to understand.

 

[NJBillK]

Like I just stated, I own a car. It is not a model A. It is not a copy of a Model A. But by your argument, it is IP and theft, regardless of the maker due to it still being a car...

Really?
This is your argument?
If it is deemed acceptable by the Patent office, it is "different enough" for me.

Why do you have a different view of those who hop the border and "fraudulently" pose as citizens, but with knives it's fine?

 

[bodog]

I think calling a KAI Sub-Frame lock a Reeve Integral Lock is a little like calling a Reeve Integral Lock a "Walker Liner Lock without a blade scale". It just doesn't make sense to me.

Sometimes patents are baby steps over a previous innovation, sometimes a quantum leap. Blame the USPO, not the designers who play within the rules available to them.

But that's the issue. They're all copies or modified copies. Sometimes the modified copies work better. Sometimes they're higher quality. Sometimes they're just cheaper. But they're all still just copies or modified copies. But then a Chinese company does it and people get all up on arms like they're evil. No one wants to support counterfeiting but come on, in the real world ideas get ripped off all the time. As long as one company doesn't portray itself as something it's not or as long as they're honest about what they're making then it's just business. You can support them or not but getting upset about it seems trite when there's so much around you that are direct rip offs of something else and all that gets ignored.

And many of these things people are upset about have no LEGAL standing so you're essentially saying they're kind of ridiculous. I don't necessarily disagree. The US has said x and y are legal and lawful. A and b aren't. I don't always agree that the laws equate to ethics but at the same time I can't get mad when one person does something when I might very well be doing something similar myself outside of the knife world.

 

[marcinek]

I love it when these discussion turn into talking about a knock off coffee pot or toilet bowl brush. Then I remember this is a knife forum and this is General Knife discussion.

Excellent point. And one cannot assume that similar discussions are not happening at toiletbowlbrushforums.com, where the people passionate about toiletbowl brushes hang out.

Ultimately, what I can never follow, and I believe is your point also, is that if one is passionate enough about knives to hang out here, then why would they not passionate about knife company X stealing from knife company Y?

I don't get it.

 

[PURPLEDC]

To be fair, SOG changes their logo a lot. That is a copy of the last iteration of logos. The biggest clue is that the only place you can find an orange twitch like that is shipped from China. Not bashing Chinese products. Just saying that 99% of the counterfeit/clone/knock off knives are made there.

I love it when these discussion turn into talking about a knock off coffee pot or toilet bowl brush. Then I remember this is a knife forum and this is General Knife discussion. And sorry, but to say the Asian counterfeits are produced for there own market is not correct. Lock knives are against the law so producing a locking knife for the Chinese market in the quantities we see is pointless. Also, Ganzo doesn't produce for the united states then why do they have a US support number out of NYC? I guess it is just for their non-axis lock products.....

I'm not sure if the ganzo situation is different. I was speaking on the clones in general. There are collectors of knives in china and while the laws have been made more strict since 2008 many report they are not enforced as much as many would think. I don't live in china though so I have no idea what the truth is about the enforcement of the laws. But I can say we have some pretty draconian knife laws that not everyone follows as well. But the main point is that they make the products yes. But these things don't have distribution networks in the United states. They get here and other parts of the world because individuals import them. They are not being sold to distribution centers and sold on USA based sites. If you live in the states and get ripped off by one of these products you are most likely being ripped off by a fellow American. Basically what I am getting at is we as Americans are responsible for these things entering the country. China isn't shipping them hear by the boat load and having Chinese americans sell them here.

 

[bodog]

Excellent point. And one cannot assume that similar discussions are not happening at toiletbowlbrushforums.com, where the people passionate about toiletbowl brushes hang out.

Ultimately, what I can never follow, and I believe is your point also, is that if one is passionate enough about knives to hang out here, then why would they not passionate about knife company X stealing from knife company Y?

I don't get it.

Saying that the same principles apply across the board from tool to tool or product to product doesn't mean one of those specific tools doesn't interest me more than others. That seems like a false argument you just made, intended to distract. It doesn't really make any point at all and definitely doesn't contribute whatsoever to the conversation.

Truth be told we're all just a little crazy for liking tools that cut as much as we do. Just because some people can equate them to other things means that those people are just a little less crazy and isolated.

 

[bodog]

Like I just stated, I own a car. It is not a model A. It is not a copy of a Model A. But by your argument, it is IP and theft, regardless of the maker due to it still being a car...

Really?
This is your argument?
If it is deemed acceptable by the Patent office, it is "different enough" for me.

Why do you have a different view of those who hop the border and "fraudulently" pose as citizens, but with knives it's fine?

No, but it IS a modified copy of a model A made with better materials and processes than Ford was using. Even Ford recognized that they needed to move on because there was competition and they redesigned and innovated upon their design. But it took other people ripping their manufacturing processes off and beating them at their own game and them understanding it and improving to stay in the market. But at its core the car you're driving IS a rip off of a model A made with essentially the same type of manufacturing process ripped off from Ford, regardless of what company makes the car you drive. And no credit is given by those companies to Ford for their original innovation of a massive assembly line (among other things). But that's ok. It's legal so you don't think twice about it. But within the knife world different standards are applied and that doesn't make sense to me.

All that just to say that if companies actually held themselves to the standards that are being discussed here, we'd be living like it was several hundreds of years ago.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I dont own any of their knives and I do not plan on doing so.

Aside from knives (which this forum is about, though I will entertain the conversation), I do have a fridge, a car (not a Ford Model A) and other objects that were invented by others and I do not have an issue with it. Primarily because I did not buy a fraudulent Model A, I didn't buy a knock off washboard for my laundry, I didn't buy an imitation GE refrigerator that was initially released as another brands model.

I am not against the improvementof an idea, intellectual property, or correction of a design "flaw" if another realizes it and is able to capitalize on it, if and only if it is done within the context of legality within the U.S..

Why just the U.S.? Because that is where I live. Take that as greedy, selfish, whatever... I view it (incorrectly or not) about my integrity and the ability that I have to sleep at night.

If companies didn't want to make knives for others markets, why do the offer them with locks but blur them out on their site due to legal restrictions in their own country?

If they are trying to offer them for their own country alone, why make them with illegal locks?
Why have contact phone nimber registered in NYC but no listrd address?

There is more to this than we want what they are offering. If other people don't care about the rectitude involved in purchasing an outright copy, then I don't let it bother me. I just choose to try to not purchase them due to their lack of honesty or differing moral compass.

Well to be clear I'm not the one who brought up non knife related objects. But I think the point that was trying to be made is that it would seem some are only vocal on this issue when in relation to their hobbies. The same people speaking out about this probably aren't exercising the same vigilance with their other worldly possessions. Making some question whether its the actual issue in general they take cause with or just when it is convenient for them. Some just find it hypocritical if a person is only an "activist" when it is an object of their desire rather than counterfeiting and copying as a whole. In other words you cant get mad that you see someone wearing a self made metallica shirt if you only get your music through non paid file sharing or pirating. Or telling someone he is a POS for a ganzo knife but you are wearing an invicta watch that looks just like a Rolex. At least that is my guess to the point that was trying to be made. I will agree though that counterfeiting is crappy. I don't like logos being used as there is absolutely no way to deny that the product is being created with the potential to deceive no matter who will be doing the slight of hand. But it seems to go further than that here. I get it though. Its a passion for many. But I just cant separate and give a pass to the guy buying a shirogorov with a counterfeit axis lock and importing it from Russia but tell the guy who buys a ganzo with ganzo logos with a counterfeit axis lock and imports it from china that he is doing something wrong.

Excellent point. And one cannot assume that similar discussions are not happening at toiletbowlbrushforums.com, where the people passionate about toiletbowl brushes hang out.

Ultimately, what I can never follow, and I believe is your point also, is that if one is passionate enough about knives to hang out here, then why would they not passionate about knife company X stealing from knife company Y?

I don't get it.

I can only speak for myself but its the same reason I don't get involved in the squabbles of other people. Its not my fight. Even though I love knives. I don't have any say or interest in anything beyond that. To me its a product and that is what I am enthusiastic about. My hobbies are my personal joys and I don't feel like if I buy brand X knife that I am now Brand X's Friend and companion of which I need to defend or stick up for. I bought a tangible good for my own enjoyment. I understand some go deeper with it than that. And I cant fault them for what they are passionate about. I just wish that same sentiment could be extended to others if they are not passionate about that. I love my Ipad. It does everything I want it to do and more and never gives me any issues. But I don't get mad when Samsung makes the latest galaxy device that looks a lot like an ipad. For me that is a problem for apple and Samsung to work out. My hobbies are my area of my life to be selfish. So I buy what I like and what I think is a quality item regardless of any outside factors. Because at the end of the day that is who I am trying to please with that purchase. And I just find it really hard to get all worked up over IP theft when it happens so much, even domestically. I guess for me, if I decided to take up these causes and not buy from any company that did something that I disagreed with I think there would be 5 total companies I would be able to buy products from and its likely because I know nothing about them.

 

[Mo2]

So I have been coming A crossed these Orange Sog twitch ii and Ontario rat 1 from what I know I don't think sog ever made a twitch in orange same with Ontario an the rat 1 can somebody tell me if these are knock offs really like to know because if they're not I definitely want them.

yes those are clones.

 

[bodog]

But I just cant separate and give a pass to the guy buying a shirogorov with a counterfeit axis lock and importing it from Russia but tell the guy who buys a ganzo with ganzo logos with a counterfeit axis lock and imports it from china that he is doing something wrong.

Exactly. Not just Shirogorov, but any company or product. The whole "pull the stick from your own eye first" or "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks" or even "he who is without sin cast the first stone " concept.