Are they clones/ knock offs?

[Scurvy092]

Nope, there was 1) no diatribe and 2) it was only brought up because they're a generally well liked company who's done some of these things and people accept it. It was only used as an example. Others brought up some better examples like shirogorov, boker, cold steel, etc. I haven't continued to harp on KAI because I don't believe it's a big deal. Others seem to and keep going back to it like it's something worth arguing about.

1. You keep claiming they've 'done some of these things' without providing a single credible example. You proved your ignorance on the sub-frame lock and haven't come up with ANY else even remotely related to counterfeiting/cloning knives.

2.

Don't look at the patents for KAI if someone stealing things gets your blood boiling.

Sounds like you think it's a big deal.


3) people keep going back to it because you showed your ass by comparing straight up counterfeit knives from an unknown company to one of the top American knife companies who helped develop a novel and substantial improvement upon an existing design so much that the USPTO thought it deserved protection (which it clearly did since it was immediately ripped off by another company).

4) If you were someone with a reach beyond a random knife forum, I wouldn't be shocked if KAI sent you a cease and desist letter on the grounds of libel.

 

[bodog]

1. You keep claiming they've 'done some of these things' without providing a single credible example. You proved your ignorance on the sub-frame lock and haven't come up with ANY else even remotely related to counterfeiting/cloning knives.

2.

Sounds like you think it's a big deal.


3) people keep going back to it because you showed your ass by comparing straight up counterfeit knives from an unknown company to one of the top American knife companies who helped develop a novel and substantial improvement upon an existing design so much that the USPTO thought it deserved protection (which it clearly did since it was immediately ripped off by another company).

4) If you were someone with a reach beyond a random knife forum, I wouldn't be shocked if KAI sent you a cease and desist letter on the grounds of libel.

No, the other guy, you know, the one I was responding to, seemed like he might have been interested. If you don't want to look for yourself then don't. I don't really care. And good job taking a single sentence out of context trying to prove your point.

 

[Scurvy092]

'done some things'

'stealing'

'shady'

All terms you have used to describe KAI with literally not one shred of evidence or even an actual example. Now you have gone full on conspiracy theory nut job with this, you have to go find it yourself, I'm not telling you.

It's not my job to prove a negative.

 

[PG5768]

Alex, What is libel?

Correct!

 

[bodog]

'done some things'

'stealing'

'shady'

All terms you have used to describe KAI with literally not one shred of evidence or even an actual example. Now you have gone full on conspiracy theory nut job with this, you have to go find it yourself, I'm not telling you.

It's not my job to prove a negative.

I don't need to prove it to you, either. If you want to do the legwork then by all means. Why are you making this about this one point like all the others don't matter? Are you saying the entire argument is false because you don't want to believe a specific statement I made? Well, that's on you. I don't care enough to redo the legwork to prove it to you, it's not that it's not there. I have said it before that it's just business on their end. That's not libel or whatever stupid thing you or anyone else can come up with. It's just a fact of life. It happens. If you think pretty much everything you use and consume in your life wasn't made and contracts created through at least some measure of what most would consider "shadiness" or whatever has been repeatedly defined here in this thread then you're naive. And if saying that actually happens makes me a bad guy, then so be it. At least I'm honest enough with myself to see it for what it is and make a decision based on the ground in the real world. If you need to lie to yourself about how a lot of stuff gets accomplished then do it if it makes you happy.

 

[kneedeep]

I don't need to prove it to you, either. If you want to do the legwork then by all means. Why are you making this about this one point like all the others don't matter? Are you saying the entire argument is false because you don't want to believe a specific statement I made? Well, that's on you. I don't care enough to redo the legwork to prove it to you, it's not that it's not there. I have said it before that it's just business on their end. That's not libel or whatever stupid thing you or anyone else can come up with. It's just a fact of life. It happens. If you think pretty much everything you use and consume in your life wasn't made and contracts created through at least some measure of what most would consider "shadiness" or whatever has been repeatedly defined here in this thread then you're naive. And if saying that actually happens makes me a bad guy, then so be it. At least I'm honest enough with myself to see it for what it is and make a decision based on the ground in the real world. If you need to lie to yourself about how a lot of stuff gets accomplished then do it if it makes you happy.

I think the issue is most of the other points in this thread have been opinions, whereas the points that people are dogging on (no pun intended) are things you have stated incorrectly as fact (providing no evidence to back your statements). The only thing that might help in your defense agains accusations of libel would be that this is a private forum, though that would be tenuous since it is visible to the public.

 

[bodog]

I think the issue is most of the other points in this thread have been opinions, whereas the points that people are dogging on (no pun intended) are things you have stated incorrectly as fact (providing no evidence to back your statements). The only thing that might help in your defense agains accusations of libel would be that this is a private forum, though that would be tenuous since it is visible to the public.

Like I said, if you want to look it up, have at it. It's a lot of technical jargon but the proof is there. I'm done talking about KAI because I don't have any beef with them. Not in a manner that would cause me to not buy from them or say they're unethical or doing things illegally. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe their operating in an illegal manner nor have I said that. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe they're straight up crooks nor have I said that. But some of you guys attaching those words to certain businesses while not attaching it to others who are doing the same thing is on you. At least I and some other people can see it for what it is.

 

[kneedeep]

Like I said, if you want to look it up, have at it. It's a lot of technical jargon but the proof is there. I'm done talking about KAI because I don't have any beef with them. Not in a manner that would cause me to not buy from them or say they're unethical or doing things illegally. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe their operating in an illegal manner nor have I said that. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe they're straight up crooks nor have I said that. But some of you guys attaching those words to certain businesses while not attaching it to others who are doing the same thing is on you. At least I and some other people can see it for what it is.

Sorry, you haven't seen me attaching words to any businesses. I only jumped in here to correct your misrepresentation of what a sub-frame lock is, and the patent since you brought them up very specifically.

 

[NDJeep]

There should be a "legal/ethics" sub-forum that mods could move this stuff too... cause every one of these too frequent threads quickly evolves into the same tired old debates. Theres obviously some interest for some, but its alot of the same players.
The threads are actually interesting with pics and such... for about 2 pages.

 

[Scurvy092]

I don't need to prove it to you, either. If you want to do the legwork then by all means. Why are you making this about this one point like all the others don't matter? Are you saying the entire argument is false because you don't want to believe a specific statement I made? Well, that's on you. I don't care enough to redo the legwork to prove it to you, it's not that it's not there. I have said it before that it's just business on their end. That's not libel or whatever stupid thing you or anyone else can come up with. It's just a fact of life. It happens. If you think pretty much everything you use and consume in your life wasn't made and contracts created through at least some measure of what most would consider "shadiness" or whatever has been repeatedly defined here in this thread then you're naive. And if saying that actually happens makes me a bad guy, then so be it. At least I'm honest enough with myself to see it for what it is and make a decision based on the ground in the real world. If you need to lie to yourself about how a lot of stuff gets accomplished then do it if it makes you happy.

No one is talking about any other points or other companies.

We're talking about a company you've made repeated, baseless, accusations against on the grounds apparently of 'every company has shadiness in their background' as if that's some catch all excuse.

Ganzo ripping off the Axis lock, Kevin John cloning/counterfeiting knives, Strider's lies about his military history, Microtech cloning the 0777 are all INCREDIBLY well known controversies.

You basically lumped KAI into this group of people with no evidence. No one needs any clarification on any of the controversies I have listed above and yet no one single person in this thread seems to have any idea as to what you are alluding to.

 

[bodog]

Sorry, you haven't seen me attaching words to any businesses. I only jumped in here to correct your misrepresentation of what a sub-frame lock is, and the patent since you brought them up very specifically.

I brought it up as a minor point because most here know about the KAI lawsuit against microtech for using it. Not because it's a major issue. Whatever your feelings about it, anyone for that matter, it IS simply just a modified framelock which is just a modified liner lock which is just a new way to lock a knife which is just a new way to keep a blade open which is just a modified fixed blade which is just a modified hunk of steel which is just a modified hunk of bronze. See how it works? Evolution, modification, whatever. Businesses do it. Some use laws to protect themselves, some dont. Some use laws to take what someone else created as their own. Some innovate end items, some innovate manufacturing techniques and processes. Some copy others a little, some copy a lot. But everyone copies someone to some extent, even if some bell or whistle is added that's not been seen before. Like I said, that's life. As long as it's not illegal or truly unethical then make your own decision and realize that other people have different opinions. I've said that several times already.

 

[bodog]

No one is talking about any other points or other companies.

We're talking about a company you've made repeated, baseless, accusations against on the grounds apparently of 'every company has shadiness in their background' as if that's some catch all excuse.

Ganzo ripping off the Axis lock, Kevin John cloning/counterfeiting knives, Strider's lies about his military history, Microtech cloning the 0777 are all INCREDIBLY well known controversies.

You basically lumped KAI into this group of people with no evidence. No one needs any clarification on any of the controversies I have listed above and yet no one single person in this thread seems to have any idea as to what you are alluding to.

They're all known because they were/are blatantly on the black side of the spectrum. I notice you don't mention any of the other brands that have been mentioned and proven to be doing the same things. For the last time, KAI IS lumped on with them because they're all on the same scale, just at different points along the scale. If all you want to do is demonize a few companies at the blackest end of the spectrum and you're unable to even try to discuss where other companies lie then that's on you. You have no desire to discuss anything. Your only desire is to attack my small point without having any goal other than to prove me wrong. Well, I'm not wrong on this. And I feel no need to do your own legwork for you. If you go looking, eventually you'll see it for yourself. I doubt you'll accept it, but whatever. Like I said, we're talking about tools with a cutting edge. Nothing to get worked up about. Don't know why you are.

 

[presz]

There should be a "legal/ethics" sub-forum that mods could move this stuff too... cause every one of these too frequent threads quickly evolves into the same tired old debates. Theres obviously some interest for some, but its alot of the same players.
The threads are actually interesting with pics and such... for about 2 pages.

Or locked a long time ago? #KAIbashing

Where are the mods anyway?

 

[kneedeep]

There should be a "legal/ethics" sub-forum that mods could move this stuff too... cause every one of these too frequent threads quickly evolves into the same tired old debates. Theres obviously some interest for some, but its alot of the same players.
The threads are actually interesting with pics and such... for about 2 pages.

Yes, sorry. You are absolutely right.

 

[bodog]

Or locked a long time ago? #KAIbashing

Where are the mods anyway?

Lol, who's bashing KAI? Can that company not be discussed? Why would I bash a company who's product I'm actually carrying and used multiple times today? Man, this stuff is ridiculous.

 

[PG5768]

Lol, who's bashing KAI? Can that company not be discussed? Why would I bash a company who's product I'm actually carrying and used multiple times today? Man, this stuff is ridiculous.

SMH.

"I'm innocent your Honor. I swear I never said any such thing."

 

[bodog]

SMH.

Exactly.

 

[metsfan]

So...




...is the orange RAT 1 genuine or not?

 

[JuJu-]

Nope, there was 1) no diatribe and 2) it was only brought up because they're a generally well liked company who's done some of these things and people accept it. It was only used as an example. Others brought up some better examples like shirogorov, boker, cold steel, etc. I haven't continued to harp on KAI because I don't believe it's a big deal. Others seem to and keep going back to it like it's something worth arguing about.

Pretty sure we go back to it because your claims are baseless. You are saying they ripped off a RIL when what they did was put more thought into it and made something that accomplishes the same end result with benefits of being lighter. This directly resulted in a US patent being awarded and enforced. They are protecting what they invested into with this new technology. Why is it that so hard to understand? That's not ripping something off, it's furthering it. A lantern and a flashlight light up the way but they both do it in different ways. Not a ripoff of each other.

I've been through this with you a few times throughout my time on this forum, this isnt the first. You have a hard on for Trolling KAI, it's no secret. You keep alluding to them stealing other patentable things. It's not by accident that you brought this up. Do I need to look back and pull up these other threads?

Honestly you seem to be the only one who thinks this so I will leave you to your "opinions". You are more than entitled to have them, I can't argue that. But when you say it like it's fact is when I and the other handful of people who have been calling you on this here will do just that, call you on it like we have.

 

[bodog]

Pretty sure we go back to it because your claims are baseless. You are saying they ripped off a RIL when what they did was put more thought into it and made something that accomplishes the same end result with benefits of being lighter. This directly resulted in a US patent being awarded and enforced. They are protecting what they invested into with this new technology. Why is it that so hard to understand? That's not ripping something off, it's furthering it. A lantern and a flashlight light up the way but they both do it in different ways. Not a ripoff of each other.

I've been through this with you a few times throughout my time on this forum, this isnt the first. You have a hard on for Trolling KAI, it's no secret. You keep alluding to them stealing other patentable things. It's not by accident that you brought this up. Do I need to look back and pull up these other threads?

Honestly you seem to be the only one who thinks this so I will leave you to your "opinions". You are more than entitled to have them, I can't argue that. But when you say it like it's fact is when I and the other handful of people who have been calling you on this here will do just that, call you on it like we have.

Trolling KAI, let's see, I could name a few of the examples you're talking about off the top of my head. Marketing slogans being the main one, and needing to send in a knife multiple times for warranty work, etc. Talking about disagreeing with those things isn't trolling. I notice the people who have serious problems with this are all members of zt or Kershaw fan clubs, or like in your case, you announce it in your signature line. I hate to tell you but KAI isn't a perfect company. Doesn't make them disreputable or anything, but they're not perfect. And as far as the patents go, I said I don't care enough. That means it's not a big deal. I used to think so but I don't care anymore. Just like I don't care that reate USED to make counterfeit knives and stopped. And I don't care about a lot of this stuff. It seems juvenile. I'd like to talk about tools and of they're good or not. Not just hitch onto a certain company like it's my own and become so invested in what they're doing I feel some kind of emotion about what kind of business they're running as long as it's legal. I can say that yes, I saw the patents. Yes, it was quite awhile ago and I don't believe they ever manufactured pieces with whatever it was the patent pertained to. But that doesn't mean they didn't do it. You can get mad if you want, doesn't mean the truth isn't still out there if you want to look for it yourself. But since you're a frankenblurextraordinaire I doubt you will.

And this whole time, go through my post history if you want, I've maintained that ZT and Kershaw have made some of my favorite knives. I recommend the blur (or OKC RAT) to most people on a budget or non-knife people wanting a decent knife. I still carry an 0560. The knife I most regret getting rid of was an 0600. Those are all KAI knives. And I have a lot of respect for the manager of their WR department for how he handled a situation. That doesn't sound to me like I'd be someone who hates that company or speaks about them in some kind of trolling manner.