Are they clones/ knock offs?

[Scurvy092]

Shady? hah, like what?

Because they don't credit the person who invented the lock like 99.9% of the other frame lock producers?

Reeve didn't patent it because he felt like there wasn't a substantial change to the liner lock since it's literally just the scale removed.

Walker didn't patent the liner lock because he didn't invent it, he just made it popular.

The sub-frame lock is a substantial upgrade over the frame lock since it allows you to reduce weight by not requiring an entire slab of metal. Clearly the Patent Office felt it was a substantial difference to what was out there to issue the patent.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Ugh, I had a long post typed up but things didn't work out. I'll shorten it to...

I like ZT, I carried one today. I find it to be a really good knife for the money I paid for it. I wish they'd have given credit by calling their framelock what it actually is, an unprotected RIL, but whatever. It's still a good knife and it wasn't truly unethically produced. The company that made it has some shady, albeit legal, dealings, but which business doesn't? In the knife world I think Spyderco doesn't. But what I feel about it doesn't matter. I'm just a consumer. Either I can deal with what I buy or I can't. But I'm not a hypocrite about it, either. That's the essence of my stance in this whole thing. I believe there are a lot of hypocritical people popping up. Pull the stick from your own eye first (Matthew 7:5)...

"You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye"

I'm sorry but I just cant agree. This crusade has gone on much longer than this thread. Its been happening for years. And you know it. You say they are an ok company now. But give it a week, a month or maybe two but this exact same topic will come up again. And we all will have the same argument. If I went back I bet I could find a posts nearly word for word with what he have seen in this thread but with just different topics triggering the responses. I agree with you on some things but in this case I think the argument is extremely thin.

 

[bodog]

I'm sorry but I just cant agree. This crusade has gone on much longer than this thread. Its been happening for years. And you know it. You say they are an ok company now. But give it a week, a month or maybe two but this exact same topic will come up again. And we all will have the same argument. If I went back I bet I could find a posts nearly word for word with what he have seen in this thread but with just different topics triggering the responses. I agree with you on some things but in this case I think the argument is extremely thin.

Yeah, these arguments have been going on for far longer than this forum has been in existence. But still, design copying and modification is what progress is. Unless you're talking of the TRUE innovation that doesn't rest on the shoulders of any other person. But those innovations are very, very few and far between. If something isn't a TRUE innovation then I don't really feel all that bad if someone else takes that idea and runs in another direction. If something isn't illegal or ripping off a genuine innovation then whatever. It's just business. That's how the world works no matter what others say. If I dug through KAI's patents, which I've done before and found it very tedious, then I could post what I'm talking about regarding what they've done. It's actually very similar to the idea of Reeve making the framelock and putting it out for public use and then another company coming out and throwing a patent on Reeve's idea. Honestly it's been more than a year and don't remember the details or I'd go straight to the patent and prove it. The sub-frame lock issue is whatever. Just someone standing on the shoulders of the last generation. I really don't have a problem with that regardless of the words some of these other people try to put in my mouth.

Imagine spyderco putting the idea of a pocket clip out there and everyone using it and then some company throws a patent on it and calls it theirs. The patent may be valid, and it may be legal, but it's not their idea. Does that make a pocket clip a bad idea? No. Does that mean others shouldn't try to improve it? No. It's just what it is. It's business. People find loopholes all the time and exploit them. Doesn't necessarily mean it's good or bad. Don't we all try to pay the least amount of taxes as possible, loopholes or not? Does that make any of us bad? No, not really. It's just real life. It's rarely black and white. It's all varying shades of gray and our emotions and backgrounds determine the exact shade. If there's nothing strictly illegal then we need to accept that it's up to us to accept it or not and not harp on other people for feeling differently. After all, we're all guilty of using and consuming products that were copied or simply technically legal although the actual morality of it is questionable. People can try to separate the knife world from the rest of the world and try to remain seated on their high horse but real life is real life. We can't all buy only things that are genuinely honest and original and chock full of integrity. That's not the world. Law enforcement officers and contract specialists and anyone who needs to weigh legality and morality and intention and spirit of action are probably more used to thinking about shades of gray rather than black and white. And how to try to manipulate those shades for their own needs, to be honest. That's life and people can dislike it and try to argue it all day long but it doesn't matter. It's still life. Knives are just a tiny, miniscule blip on that radar. And for people to get up in arms about it on an Internet forum is kind of silly. That's also just real talk.

 

[Icehawk]

The area that is, without question, immoral and illegal is making what I will call a copy (correct term would be counterfeit). Let's say Kershaw makes a "Z" knife and then a 2nd company not only copies Kershaw's Z look but also added Kershaw's name, logo, etc then it is clearly theft from Kershaw and a deception to the consumer. Ask Rolex how much they like that (I have a nice picture of them steamrolling a massive pile of fakes) for example. It devalues the brand and is just plain wrong on every level.

I think arguments can be made for generics or clones but I think it depends on a lot of factors and isn't just black & white. IMO, this holds true with any good or product.


Edited for clarity (counterfeit)

 

[bodog]

The area that is, without question, immoral and illegal is making what I will call a copy. Let's say Kershaw makes a "Z" knife and then a 2nd company not only copies Kershaw's Z look but also added Kershaw's name, logo, etc then it is clearly theft from Kershaw and a deception to the consumer. Ask Rolex how much they like that (I have a nice picture of them steamrolling a massive pile of fakes) for example. It devalues the brand and is just plain wrong on every level.

I think arguments can be made for generics or clones but I think it depends on a lot of factors and isn't just black & white. IMO, this holds true with any good or product.

Truth. When someone makes something contrary to law, there's a problem. When someone makes something with the intention to deceive, there's a problem. When no laws are broken and there's no intention to deceive, then the rest is completely dependant upon your own opinion.

For example, Kevin John steals a trademark. Bad. Obviously. They make other knives that don't. Not bad. Shirogorov makes knives that don't infringe on a patent. Not bad. They make other knives that do. Bad. You can't say Kevin John is any worse than Shirogorov. If you do then you're a hypocrite. To go deeper, Frigidaire makes a refrigerator that doesn't infringe on a copyright or patent or trademark. Not bad. Ruixin Pro makes a knife sharpener that doesn't infringe on a copyright or patent or trademark. Also not bad. But people on this forum continue using their frigidaire but scream about Ruixin making a knife sharpener. There's the hypocrisy. And that's what's wrong.

Adai was a serious serial offender regarding straight up counterfeits. But now people buy them because they changed their name to Reate. They're actually highly regarded concerning their quality and warranty. People are willing to overlook their past indiscretions because the quality and price are better than other products on the market. Why isn't Reate ostracized for their past practices? Why is that company sold on most reputable knife retailers' websites? Because no one cares.

All Kevin John Knives needs to do is stop producing knives that are morally/legally questionable and they'd be accepted? Is that what the knife world has come to? People have no firm stance. I, on the other hand, have drawn my own line. As long as it's not illegal or blatantly immoral then I can consider it. I definitely don't get upset when someone else feels some other way, unless they clearly advocate for something illegal or blatantly immoral according to my own background and emotions.

The only thing I'd caution against is confusing the terms "copy" and "counterfeit." One is illegal, one isn't.

 

[Scurvy092]

Imagine spyderco putting the idea of a pocket clip out there and everyone using it and then some company throws a patent on it and calls it theirs. The patent may be valid, and it may be legal, but it's not their idea.

Thank you for your true display of ignorance.

Keep up with the armchair analysis, it's been so entertaining so far.

 

[Icehawk]

Agreed, let me edit it to say counterfeit as that is precisely what I meant. I need to eat

 

[metsfan]

I'm so confused right now...?

Do we hate KAI for the patents they've secured on "ripped off" designs or do we love them for being awesome at customer service/warranty and producing wonderful knives?

What are we talking about again?

 

[PG5768]

This thread and those like it are why I try to stay away from BF. Feeding trolls and attention whores just prolongs these threads. Trolls and attention whores disgust me.

Stop feeding the trolls. Put the attention whores on ignore. BF will be better for it.

 

[bodog]

I'm so confused right now...?

Do we hate KAI for the patents they've secured on "ripped off" designs or do we love them for being awesome at customer service/warranty and producing wonderful knives?

What are we talking about again?

People are trying to turn it into an argument based on a specific company's practices rather than looking at the overall picture of what is acceptable vs. what isn't. The OP talked about knives that are clearly counterfeits and people started talking about how any knife that can be considered any kind of copy is wrong. I made mention that a lot of things are copied and not to get upset about it because it's part of life and business that happens. People took the example and anything else they could and tried to make side arguments to stay away from the fact that in the real world things are ripped off all the time and there's nothing to get upset about unless a law is broken or true ethical lines are crossed. Someone came in and called out the specific hypocrisy of people being upset with Ganzo but accepting Shirogorov and Boker and other companies even though they, too, rip off other companies. People conveniently ignored that and kept on arguing that a sub-frame lock is a completely different and original idea that has no connection whatsoever to a Reeve Integral Lock because the patent office issued a patent on it. Some people keep on point, some people are making ad hominem attacks, and others are refusing to address the point but keep making some kind of argument about random things that distract from the point. It's an internet forum and it happens.

 

[Mo2]

People are trying to turn it into an argument based on a specific company's practices rather than looking at the overall picture of what is acceptable vs. what isn't. The OP talked about knives that are clearly counterfeits and people started talking about how any knife that can be considered any kind of copy is wrong. I made mention that a lot of things are copied and not to get upset about it because it's part of life and business that happens. People took the example and anything else they could and tried to make side arguments to stay away from the fact that in the real world things are ripped off all the time and there's nothing to get upset about unless a law is broken or true ethical lines are crossed. Someone came in and called out the specific hypocrisy of people being upset with Ganzo but accepting Shirogorov and Boker and other companies even though they, too, rip off other companies. People conveniently ignored that and kept on arguing that a sub-frame lock is a completely different and original idea that has no connection whatsoever to a Reeve Integral Lock because the patent office issued a patent on it. Some people keep on point, some people are making ad hominem attacks, and others are refusing to address the point but keep making some kind of argument about random things that distract from the point. It's an internet forum and it happens.

if people are getting upset about liner lock and frame lock, are they dumb? i would say so. they want to come up with ANYTHING to argue in their favor that replica's are great.

 

[Scurvy092]

People are trying to turn it into an argument based on a specific company's practices rather than looking at the overall picture of what is acceptable vs. what isn't. The OP talked about knives that are clearly counterfeits and people started talking about how any knife that can be considered any kind of copy is wrong. I made mention that a lot of things are copied and not to get upset about it because it's part of life and business that happens. People took the example and anything else they could and tried to make side arguments to stay away from the fact that in the real world things are ripped off all the time and there's nothing to get upset about unless a law is broken or true ethical lines are crossed. Someone came in and called out the specific hypocrisy of people being upset with Ganzo but accepting Shirogorov and Boker and other companies even though they, too, rip off other companies. People conveniently ignored that and kept on arguing that a sub-frame lock is a completely different and original idea that has no connection whatsoever to a Reeve Integral Lock because the patent office issued a patent on it. Some people keep on point, some people are making ad hominem attacks, and others are refusing to address the point but keep making some kind of argument about random things that distract from the point. It's an internet forum and it happens.

This is some fantastic revisionist history.

You derailed this thread on page one by putting on your patent attorney hat and launching into a diatribe over the KAI sub-frame lock patent.

 

[bodog]

if people are getting upset about liner lock and frame lock, are they dumb? i would say so. they want to come up with ANYTHING to argue in their favor that replica's are great.

I haven't seen anyone do that. I've seen people saying there's a lot of "pot calling the kettle black" going on. Others are trying to defend being the pot and why they're calling the kettle black and doing a miserable job at it.

 

[bodog]

This is some fantastic revisionist history.

You derailed this thread on page one by putting on your patent attorney hat and launching into a diatribe over the KAI sub-frame lock patent.

Nope, there was 1) no diatribe and 2) it was only brought up because they're a generally well liked company who's done some of these things and people accept it. It was only used as an example. Others brought up some better examples like shirogorov, boker, cold steel, etc. I haven't continued to harp on KAI because I don't believe it's a big deal. Others seem to and keep going back to it like it's something worth arguing about.

 

[kneedeep]

Nope, there was 1) no diatribe and 2) it was only brought up because they're a generally well liked company who's done some of these things and people accept it. It was only used as an example. Others brought up some better examples like shirogorov, boker, cold steel, etc. I haven't continued to harp on KAI because I don't believe it's a big deal. Others seem to and keep going back to it like it's something worth arguing about.

Others keep harping on it because you grossly misrepresented what the sub-frame lock is and have basically libeled Kai in regards to that patent. You keep saying it is the same as the RIL but you are completely wrong. It does the same thing, it uses most of the same physics principles to lock and retain the blade, but it is constructed and manufactured in a completely different way. Different lock, similar principle. And you keep back-pedaling and saying it isn't a big deal, yet you bring it up and keep misrepresenting it.

I don't disagree that at this point, enough things have been tried that many things in this industry are simply evolution, but to keep stating something as factual when it is not is just ignorant.

 

[bodog]

I think calling a KAI Sub-Frame lock a Reeve Integral Lock is a little like calling a Reeve Integral Lock a "Walker Liner Lock without a blade scale". It just doesn't make sense to me.

Sometimes patents are baby steps over a previous innovation, sometimes a quantum leap. Blame the USPO, not the designers who play within the rules available to them.

Well, that's essential what an RIL is so I wouldn't see an issue with a company calling it that. It wasn't so much about a company specifically calling an RIL a thick liner lock without a blade scale or calling a sub-frame lock an RIL with a large lockbar cutout. It was about giving credit where credit is due. Spyderco seems to be great at it. Others not so much. Spyderco is definitely not hypocritical about their practices. I respect that. ZT is a little bit but not enough to make me dislike them. I can take them or leave them. Other companies fall somewhere else. It's up to me whether I accept them or not. If they don't lie or obfuscate or break the law they're at least the bare minimum of my personal standards. Other factors then come into play that can swing me. You and everyone else have different ideas and standards but we can all, I think, agree that lying, cheating, and breaking the law are absolute deal breakers. Anything else is simply a matter of opinion. People take this stuff so personally. They're tools that are made and we buy. Most of us don't even make them. We just squabble over what other people are doing and it really doesn't affect us or them at all. No, I don't have an issue with Reate changing their name and business practices and offering us something we like. I don't have a HUGE issue with a company using loopholes because I can accept that business is business. I have a problem with people having double standards and hold certain companies to the fire while accepting others for doing essentially the same things. Either accept it or don't. Either buy the products that fall into your own standards or find some reason not to. I don't care and neither does anyone else in the long run. That's really the long and short of it. No one cares what you do. Just don't be hypocritical and expect things from some companies but not from others. Chinese companies seem to bear the brunt of this type of ire.

 

[palonej]

Thank you for your true display of ignorance.

Keep up with the armchair analysis, it's been so entertaining so far.

Best post in this thread!!
Entertaining yes........major migraine causing?? YESSSSS!!!
Extremely huge walls of text make my eyes cross. Add to that most of them aren't making any kind of sense and I blew a retina!!
Ugh
Joe

 

[PG5768]

... You and everyone else have different ideas and standards but we can all, I think, agree that lying, cheating, and breaking the law are absolute deal breakers. ...

Quoted for truth. Oh the irony of you posting this.

 

[bodog]

Quoted for truth. Oh the irony of you posting this.

Reported. You have no idea who I am or what I've done. It's also indicative that you have no real argument or points to make and you're just trying to derail the thread. That's trolling.

PS. Just looked. You have no feedback, 4300 posts, and abundant postings in whine and cheese. That says what needs to be said.

 

[PG5768]

Reported. You have no idea who I am or what I've done. It's also indicative that you have no real argument or points to make and you're just trying to derail the thread. That's trolling.

PS. Just looked. You have no feedback, 4300 posts, and abundant postings in whine and cheese. That says what needs to be said.

Ditto.

Alex, I'll take "Legal Definitions" for $200:

Answer: a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression

BTW: Pretty funny you reporting anyone for trolling.