Are we our own worst enemy?

Stephen F

Stephen F

Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
1,235
spyken said:
with all that has been posted above, I wouldn't dare get into the hobby of collecting custom forged fixed blades. seems like there are some in the know, and a newbie like me is likely to get burnt out of ignorance....
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Took this out of another thread. I wonder if other observers are feeling the same way?

Are we are own worst enemy? Has all the discussion about profit, investment, "homework", buying right etc etc. been putting off new entrants into the field?

I am hoping for the "observers" and "lurkers" :D to comment here, not just the usual suspects as we all know what route that will take!:D;)

Is spykens view isolated (I hope so!), or are there more of you like that? If it is a problem how can we address it?

Cheers,

Stephen
 
Sure, it does seem like there are some "in the know". They got to be that way after collecting for years while keeping their eyes and ears open.

The good thing is that any new collector has an advantage that those guys didn't: these forums. You can always get the opinions of those more experienced than you, and they will give it to you for free. Well, there is a little cost-if you did something really dumb, you will be told. But if your ego can handle that, there is no down side.
 
Absolutely Not!!!!!!!!!
Shaldag said it quite eloquently. There are more choices than ever, from factory knives on up, and more information available to anyone who is interested in learning about virtually any aspect of knives, knifemaking and/or collecting.

Through the internet (forums, websites and email), communicating with knifemakers and knife enthusiasts has never been faster or easier.

The only sticking point is "Can you deal with being told something you didn't want to hear?"
 
Its also important to remember one thing about collectors....their opinion almost 100% of the time justifies their purchases. Or in other words, there arent many collectors whose opinion on what knives are valuable differs from what they spend their hard earned money on...so while their views may be very well informed, based on the market as they percieve it...they will almost always be skewed towards that collector's vision of the market and their own purchases. If a collector has spent thousands on a particular maker or style, their opinion on what knives are collectable will usually be in line with a cross section of their collection.

This applies to all aspects of collecting. A person who collects rare quarters will always gear his opinions towards how important collecting quarters is because doing so raises interest in quarters, and as a result, demand for quarters, and an increased value to their collection.

Not saying any of this is conscious acts by the collector, its mainly human nature.
 
Knife making or collecting, like many other sublects, can be daunting if
viewed all at once. The way to approach, I think, is to start with the
basics, take one step at a time, and learn what we can along the way.
 
I believe that experienced collectors should pass along all the knowledge that they can. That way new collectors will have a solid base that should help them be more confident in making the right decisions. I do not see how being more educated could ever be a detriment. Thirty five years of research and the information gained from this forum and others have made my knife collecting far more enjoyable.
 
I think that a lot of "new" collectors become confused and somewhat frightened after reading all the values, investment, profit, and resale type threads. It often gives the impression to many that you must be fully versed prior to making ANY purchase(s), and I believe it actually scares some of them. What needs to be stressed is the fact that both Making and collecting boil down to the fact that its fun. If I never sold another knife I would still be making them. If you get wrapped around the axle about the money, profit, or resale, then I think your missing the whole point. If you like it, make it/buy it. If you don't, then don't let someone else's opinion prevent you from doing so. There will always be the "tiers" of both collectors and makers. And there is room for all of them within our community.
 
2/27/2003 is the date that I joined this forum. A few Blade Show's ago, I WAS the F'n new guy.

This Forum is a stunning educational tool. The search function is amazing. Use it! Most of the regulars around here are exceedingly generous with their expertise and passion for custom knives. Asking questions is great way to learn, but be warned you will get some answers that may be too honest for your delicate sensibilities. Usually, most of the "vets" will just bite their tongue, when confronted with your new Dragon Slayer/Tactical Cake Server, but sometimes.... FWIW this goes DOUBLE for knifemakers.

The absolute hardest thing about being a FNG is understanding exactly what separates the excellent from the very good, and the good from the mediocre. Ultimately, you will have to see it and feel it in person. And you will have to develop your own judgement, taste and opinions as far as what and who you want to collect. My best advice is to get yourself to the Blade Show in Atlanta ASAP.

In the meantime, you will just have to trust me on this, the reason you keep hearing the same makers names over and over again on this forum, is because grizzled vets have years and years of experience separating the wheat from the chaf. You can learn from their accumulated wisdom, or from your own mistakes. The choice is up to you.

The other pearl of wisdom that I would suggest, is that you pick up the phone and talk to Les Robertson 706 650-0252 (Its ok, he doesn't bite). Buy either an ABS JS Hunter or a high quality Folder, from a maker such as Randy Martin, so that you can actually hold them in your hand and understand what all the custom fuss is about. If you get the knife, and think you factory XYZ is better, it send it back. If you like it, but decide later that you want something else from him, trade it back to Les. If you go broke and need cash put it up for sale on this forum, on a bad day you might lose $75, on a good day you might just break even.

I freely admit that that was a shameless plug for Les, but it is also a really good piece of honest advice.

P
 
This forum contains a lot of valuable information for educating newbies and transforming them in... old newbies :D
I don't think discussion about investment value and "homework" in general will put newcomers off. They'll get in with better chances of staying IMO.
 
Ed Caffrey said:
I think that a lot of "new" collectors become confused and somewhat frightened after reading all the values, investment, profit, and resale type threads. It often gives the impression to many that you must be fully versed prior to making ANY purchase(s), and I believe it actually scares some of them. What needs to be stressed is the fact that both Making and collecting boil down to the fact that its fun. If I never sold another knife I would still be making them. If you get wrapped around the axle about the money, profit, or resale, then I think your missing the whole point. If you like it, make it/buy it. If you don't, then don't let someone else's opinion prevent you from doing so. There will always be the "tiers" of both collectors and makers. And there is room for all of them within our community.
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How very well said! :thumbup:

All of it!

Regards
/Magnus
 
i am a new collector by everyone's standard here.....i don't think the quoted statement above is true.....i have loved knives for a long time and have started collecting them since i was young.....of course as i got older they got more expensive.....i have learned alot from these forums.....i have never been to any shows which will change soon......i think the hardest part of reading some of the threads is you do get a little scared.....if i buy a bowie from maker x and i ever decide to sell it.....am i going to loose my shirt......i have my collection and i am happy with it.....i'm not in it to makemoney and i don't really sell any pieces.......i know what i like and i buy it.....alot of my custom knives are users and i like that/........since i am not going to sell them i might as well use them......i agree with peter in the fact that going to shows and hammer-in's and talking to makers will help alot.......while i haven't been to shows i have done the other........i find alot of makers to be very helpful on the phone and most i have talked to have been very honest and genuine......i will continue to read the forums and make a contribution when i can.......ryan
 
I cook for a living...I make money at it.

Do you cook? Maybe as a hobby? Do you make money at it?

If not, I certainly expect you to feel like you're not 'doing your homework' or 'investing the time necessary' to realize a profit from your hobby.


....or is it that you just enjoy it? :D


-Michael
profit-challenged knife enthusiast
 
I get where Ed is coming from. I haven't been the FNG for long enough that it's a bit hard to remember what it was like. Certainly there was less emphasis back then on the whole investment angle, but there was still an overwhelming and perhaps intimidating volume of information to sift through. Like Russ said - if you look at the sum total you might think you'll never get it all. But if you've got the bug - and FNG's rarely lack for enthusiasm - then I think far more often than not you plug ahead anyway.

Lots of people were very generous with sharing their experiences and giving me information and advice when I was starting out (and still do - I still don't get it "all") - I'd put Les at the top of the list. If a new collector wants to learn quickly there is hardly a better place to be.

On the whole, I think that the "investment angle" is far more a positive source of valuable - and free - information than it is an off-putting barrier to the new member.

Roger
 
I’ve learned a lot from this forum and others to. I take that knowledge with me to shows. When I go to shows now I know what to look for and it has really helped me. I make sure that I’m not ignorant and buy of impulse. I’ve done it before and I was not happy with what I got.
 
Chefget said:
I cook for a living...I make money at it.

Do you cook? Maybe as a hobby? Do you make money at it?

If not, I certainly expect you to feel like you're not 'doing your homework' or 'investing the time necessary' to realize a profit from your hobby.


....or is it that you just enjoy it? :D


-Michael
profit-challenged knife enthusiast
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Very good point, Michael!
 
many years ago........after my desire for a japanese sword led me to start investigating the market, I came to the same conclusion.......there were a bunch of guys with the product and the insight, and they used it to make incredible profit.

I have never owned a japanese sword!!! :(


I dont think the American forged blade market it anything like this, however.........it doesnt take much research to figure out what are the bargains and what is a fair price for a valuable knife from a very well known MS........with the internet, all you have to do is look around on the knife forums and a bunch of purveyors and you have sufficient knowledge to go out into the market place well armed with the proper information.
 
Tom,

there were a bunch of guys with the product and the insight, and they used it to make incredible profit.
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You mean there were people who spent countless hours learning about their product. Then spent tens of thousands of dollars to get to the point where they had the right inventory so they could make a profit at it?

Those bastards!

Im glade to hear you give every penny of your profit to charities. After all you wouldn't want to be lumped in with those bastards who made a profit because of their knowledge and expertise.

On the other hand if you don't divest yourself of every single penny of profit you are a hypocrite.


WWG
Makes a very good living off his knowledge and expertise. I didn't spend 9 hours at night (after working all day) for two years to get my MBA to not make a profit!
 
Ed:

If I never sold another knife I would still be making them. If you get wrapped around the axle about the money, profit, or resale, then I think your missing the whole point.
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If you never sold another knife, how long would it be before you stopped advertising, going to shows, buying new equipment, etc?

In other words how long would it be before you stopped taking money out of savings to make knives that you either gave away or just let sit in your shop?

How long would it take for you to start to worry about the money you were spending on advertising and show expenses that are not returning any money back to you (ROI)

If you look at it from that perspective you can understand why collectors may concern themselves with what they could re-sell their knives for.

Those collectors who do their homework and make intelligent choices looking at all variables. Will still buy knives. However, they will be more inclined to buy knives that are value priced and/or have an after market demand. Then a similar knife that is over priced (for the makers position in the market) which will have little resale value in the after market.

A collector doing his homework will almost always reward the maker who offers a value price and is doing their best to market their knives to as wide an audience as possible.

I realize my "bias" is showing. As I look for makers with both talent and a business acumen.

Then again by doing so it has served my clients very well over the last 20 years.

WWG
 
WWG,

It is a bit like doctors. Undergraduate and Medical school at enormous expense, going into debt, followed by a year or two of residency working 90-100 hour weeks, hugh insurance premiums, a lifetime under the scrutiny by ambulance chasing sharks like John Edwards, and these dirty Bastards expect to make profits and even live better than we do! :barf:

When Hillary has these SOBs on regulated salaries and food stamps, we will finally be able to rest easy. ;)

P
 
Hi Tom,

I dont think the American forged blade market it anything like this, however.........it doesnt take much research to figure out what are the bargains and what is a fair price for a valuable knife from a very well known MS........with the internet, all you have to do is look around on the knife forums and a bunch of purveyors and you have sufficient knowledge to go out into the market place well armed with the proper information.
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Exactly wrong.

If you understood the market you would know that many of the MS makers are over priced. Then there are the group who got the MS ten years ago or more whose work would not allow them to earn the MS stamp if they tested today.

If you follow those knowledgeable collectors on in this forum. You will see only about 10 MS makers whose names come up time and time again.

The majority of the bargains are with the JS Makers and the newer MS makers.

But its not your fault, as the ABS only promotes MS makers on their site. A site that you would think you should start your search for information. Oddly enough it is exactly the opposite.

As for gathering information from Purveyors, you really need to do additional homework. After all one of those Purveyors who carries a lot of ABS knives is for the most part overpriced and at the same time will not allow you to return a knife...unless he thinks you should be able to. Then only gives you store credit!:mad:

If you want to know the real price...contact the maker directly. Then look for those purveyors who sell at or very near the makers price. A key element to a purveyor's pricing will be if they will allow you to trade the knife in and receive the full price you paid when you trade the knife in.

If they won't stand behind the makers they represent, as a new collector you should probably look for someone who does.

WWG
Custom Knife Entrepreneur. Way beyond a "Purveyor"!
 
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