Are we our own worst enemy?

jdm61 said:
How rare is a Loveless realtively speaking? Things that I have read about Mr. Loveless indicate that he is almost as baffled as some of the rest of us are at the prices his knives sell for. He keeps on putting out very practical hunting knives and they sell for how much? These are no more "art" knives than the same type of knife made by a very talented unknown new maker. His name is what sells them because he came up with the knife that evryone wants to copy. Many uber expensive knives are "replaceable".

As for Nick, he is what? 27? If he keeps producing high quality work, he will be in a postion to try the full time thing again eventually. Will his prices go down if he makes 50 knives in 2011? I don't think that Nick has been around long enough for rarity to come into play. In his case, the collectors seem to be betting on the fact that he has tremendous skills and a great eye for design and should get even better with time, which really pisses me off as a hack bladesmith....it might be easier to stomach is he was old and ugly like me and many other wannabe knifemakers....lol:

I guess that my paranoid Chicken Little concern is that any knifemaker who aspires to move beyond the hobbyist stage and be succesful is put in the position of catering to a limited group of collectors. Has the serious custom knife business pretty much relinquished the premium user market to the manufacturers of pricier factory and mid tech knives?
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1. The REALLY collectible Loveless knives ARE rare...the great Big Bears, Wilderness fighters, Dixon Fighters, chutes, and dagger grinds are rare...Loveless makes about 10 drop points and utlities for every one of these knives that he puts out.

2. Nick's knives are rare, regardless of how long he has been around. Go full time? Maybe when he retires...His OCD combined with his ADHD precludes being full time...If you knew him better you would understand.

3. "Limited group of collectors" well, duh!! There are limited numbers of collectors out there, and they are the ones that buy knives....even the "users" buy limited numbers of knives, especially when they find one that they are particularly fond of...and NO it is not "pretty much relinquished the premium user market to the manufacturers of pricier factory and mid tech knives".

That is so misinformed as to be mind boggling! How long have you been around here? There are many users and collectors that ONLY own and use true "handmade/custom/whatever" knives, and don't OWN any mid techs or high end production, excepting maybe kitchen knives.

Here is the skinny...If you make ass ugly "custom/handmade/whatever" knives....your customers will probably ONLY BE factory/mid tech buyers who like your prices enough to try them for their "uniqueness"...everything else will probably be a mercy buy...thus the incentive to stop making sucky knives!!

Can we please for the love of all that is holy get back to why we are our own worst enemies, pretty please with sugar on top?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
1. The REALLY collectible Loveless knives ARE rare...the great Big Bears, Wilderness fighters, Dixon Fighters, chutes, and dagger grinds are rare...Loveless makes about 10 drop points and utlities for every one of these knives that he puts out.

2. Nick's knives are rare, regardless of how long he has been around. Go full time? Maybe when he retires...His OCD combined with his ADHD precludes being full time...If you knew him better you would understand.

3. "Limited group of collectors" well, duh!! There are limited numbers of collectors out there, and they are the ones that buy knives....even the "users" buy limited numbers of knives, especially when they find one that they are particularly fond of...and NO it is not "pretty much relinquished the premium user market to the manufacturers of pricier factory and mid tech knives".

That is so misinformed as to be mind boggling! How long have you been around here? There are many users and collectors that ONLY own and use true "handmade/custom/whatever" knives, and don't OWN any mid techs or high end production, excepting maybe kitchen knives.

Here is the skinny...If you make ass ugly "custom/handmade/whatever" knives....your customers will probably ONLY BE factory/mid tech buyers who like your prices enough to try them for their "uniqueness"...everything else will probably be a mercy buy...thus the incentive to stop making sucky knives!!

Can we please for the love of all that is holy get back to why we are our own worst enemies, pretty please with sugar on top?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I actually thought Nick was kinda joking a bit about those ailments. The OCD definately shows in his work:D And yes, I still make ugly knives, BUT I am not satisfied with them and hope to get better........so there!!!!!!:p
 
FWIW, we have two knives from Nick that get used almost every day. The combination of his blade geometry, heat treat and handle ergonomics make both knives a joy to use.
 
User here. New to collecting, and worried it'll become an addiction. Why do I need the new Mat Lamey bowie I just bought? I don't, but then again I do get a charge out of the look on peoples' faces when they see how it shaves paper thin slices off of overripe tomatos. Then they ask about the hamon, and when they feel the balance and hilt geometry they kind of get thoughtful and eventually ask what it costs to have knives like that. :-)

Matt didn't post specifically about it but it's number 100 0780 (see the previous work section of http://www.imageseek.com/lamey/ )

Makers like Matt give a lot to those of us that think the thing really should be useful for us to justify the cost. I drool over mosaic Damascus blades with gemstones and carved preban Ivory and gold inlays etc, but I can't quite see myself being happy with a blade I can never use for fear of loosing major value. Maybe I could do it with a folder, but I'd still be tempted to haul it out and core an apple, and that would be bad.
 
I've come to this discussion a bit late and frankly it doesn't matter becuase I am not a collector and I would not have been able to add anything worth reading previous to this point. But after reading through many of the posts I feel one thing may be lacking. Why is it that some collectors seem to only look at what the maker is currently making but don't seem to be interested in the future of what they could make? It's like the Yankees buying Roger Clemens for a few months at a crazy price having already missed out on the value he once provided. Where's the prospect?

I guess my point is I think collectors should quiz makers on where they would like to go with knives. What is the next aspect of knives their excited about learning? Does that maker show a true drive to be better? If a maker has shown skill and motivation in the past maybe some of the collectors that can afford it should give those makers a little more rein to do something outside their comfort zone.

I know with me I have been very fortunate to get that opportunity from collectors along the way. It starts with a collector asking you to do something in the 500 dollar range instead of his normal 350 range. And then asking them to do something in the 1000 dollar range and so forth. I think this is the best way a collector can invest in the future of the knives he's buying. Help give that maker that's showing promise a boost. Sure it's a risk but it should be a calculated one in which your gut tells you your picking the right maker.

I don't think this applies to just young makers such as myself or Nick but even the makers in their 40's and 50's. Those guys have 20 or 30 years left to advance themselves and they should be trying. But many of those makers have come into making just as many of you into collecting. They've come for fun. Many have jobs that support them and knives are just an outlet. You the collector should be very wary of that maker because he may drop it as soon as it becomes more than an outlet. That's not to say a maker with a job can't be collectable but you just have to be able to figure out which ones will be.

At 26 I feel like I am just begining my knife career even though I've made knives for 15 years now. I have three projects that I am working on where I have been given that rein to the ultimate degree. I feel lucky for it but I also know I worked for it. Everytime I was given that rein along the way I tried to make the best of it and I will continue to do that. These projects are growing every day and most of the time these days I have a pit in my stomach as to how I'm going to get them done. But when I do I know I will be a completely different maker.

I know many collectors buy what they like and more power to them. But to the collectors looking to invest in knives maybe you should consider investing in the people making the knives. Push them farther than they think they can go. If you pick the right guy you won't be disapointed.

Josh

www.joshsmithknives.com
 
joshsmith said:
Many have jobs that support them and knives are just an outlet. You the collector should be very wary of that maker because he may drop it as soon as it becomes more than an outlet. That's not to say a maker with a job can't be collectable but you just have to be able to figure out which ones will be.
Josh

www.joshsmithknives.com
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Very interesting point there, and you can view it from more than one angle as well.
I know a few makers who have jobs on the side. But they really work very hard to be able to quit their jobs at some point to become fulltime knifemakers. That takes a lot of dedication, guts and and self confidence to do, especially in this country were you get to keep about 40-50% after taxes and fees and sh*t.... :grumpy:
I have this as a long term goal myself. But I would never expect it to work without knifemaking being based on the fact that it so enjoyable to do.
As it is now I am fotunate enough to be able to make a few knives each year to as high quality as I can possibly make. Instead of having to make as many knives as possible. I believe that it is better to start out with the quality and follow with quantity instead of the other way around.

As a knifemaker I thik I actually would be "my own worst enemy" if I were to make knifemaking my sole income too early.
No one would benefit from that.

Regards
/Magnus
 
joshsmith said:
I've come to this discussion a bit late and frankly it doesn't matter becuase I am not a collector and I would not have been able to add anything worth reading previous to this point. But after reading through many of the posts I feel one thing may be lacking. Why is it that some collectors seem to only look at what the maker is currently making but don't seem to be interested in the future of what they could make? It's like the Yankees buying Roger Clemens for a few months at a crazy price having already missed out on the value he once provided. Where's the prospect?

I guess my point is I think collectors should quiz makers on where they would like to go with knives. What is the next aspect of knives their excited about learning? Does that maker show a true drive to be better? If a maker has shown skill and motivation in the past maybe some of the collectors that can afford it should give those makers a little more rein to do something outside their comfort zone.

I know with me I have been very fortunate to get that opportunity from collectors along the way. It starts with a collector asking you to do something in the 500 dollar range instead of his normal 350 range. And then asking them to do something in the 1000 dollar range and so forth. I think this is the best way a collector can invest in the future of the knives he's buying. Help give that maker that's showing promise a boost. Sure it's a risk but it should be a calculated one in which your gut tells you your picking the right maker.

I don't think this applies to just young makers such as myself or Nick but even the makers in their 40's and 50's. Those guys have 20 or 30 years left to advance themselves and they should be trying. But many of those makers have come into making just as many of you into collecting. They've come for fun. Many have jobs that support them and knives are just an outlet. You the collector should be very wary of that maker because he may drop it as soon as it becomes more than an outlet. That's not to say a maker with a job can't be collectable but you just have to be able to figure out which ones will be.

At 26 I feel like I am just begining my knife career even though I've made knives for 15 years now. I have three projects that I am working on where I have been given that rein to the ultimate degree. I feel lucky for it but I also know I worked for it. Everytime I was given that rein along the way I tried to make the best of it and I will continue to do that. These projects are growing every day and most of the time these days I have a pit in my stomach as to how I'm going to get them done. But when I do I know I will be a completely different maker.

I know many collectors buy what they like and more power to them. But to the collectors looking to invest in knives maybe you should consider investing in the people making the knives. Push them farther than they think they can go. If you pick the right guy you won't be disapointed.

Josh

www.joshsmithknives.com
Click to expand...

Powerful statment Josh and I couldn't agree more as it's about more than just the knife. :thumbup:

In collecting consider:
Maker > First
Piece > Close Second
Price > Third
 
ptgdvc said:
2/27/2003 is the date that I joined this forum. A few Blade Show's ago, I WAS the F'n new guy.

This Forum is a stunning educational tool. <snip>

P
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That pretty much says it all. I have lurked around Bladeforums for years hardly posting. It is a wealth of information for those who are interested in blades. I almost get the impression that the poster described, felt he would be taken advantage of by those much more knowledgeable which I would find very very hard to believe.

I'm flat out NOT a collector. I buy to use and use them hard. I own zero safe queens. :)
 
Blackwind said:
I'm flat out NOT a collector. I buy to use and use them hard. I own zero safe queens. :)
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I hate to break it to you, but if you have more than 2 or 3 (or any more than you realistically need) then you are a collector - of using knives. ;)

Roger
 
RogerP said:
I hate to break it to you, but if you have more than 2 or 3 (or any more than you realistically need) then you are a collector - of using knives. ;)

Roger
Click to expand...

:eek:

DRAT!

Then I'm a "collector."

Do I need to search for a AA type group now? :o

Taking stock I own well over 30 knives to include Mark Terrell, Munroe, Robert Criswell, American Kami, Bark River, Kershaw, Emerson, Fallkniven, Ontario, Gerber, Benchmade, Al Mar, CRKT, Zero Tolerance, Lone Wolf.......and yes...even a Cold Steel Magnum Tanto II....and thats just what I would classify as knives.



When I think of collector I think of someone who sits back and looks at what they have bought and considers how much they may be able to sell it for one day. Me? I'm more the "tool shed' kind of collector I guess. Ok, what tool will work best with what I need? Going camping? Ok, that knife. Hunting, ok that knife. That sort of thing.
 
Blackwind said:
Then I'm a "collector."

When I think of collector I think of someone who sits back and looks at what they have bought and considers how much they may be able to sell it for one day. Me? I'm more the "tool shed' kind of collector I guess. Ok, what tool will work best with what I need? Going camping? Ok, that knife. Hunting, ok that knife. That sort of thing.
Click to expand...

You said it.....

Your misconception of "collector" is understandable....that is what a lot of us talk about....there is more to it than that, though.

I simply see, and want to own more knives than I can use, and I am a serious user. I am carrying 5 knives on person today, with another two in my briefcase...these are: RJ Martin Havoc, Benchmade Opportunist, Microtech CA legal UTX 70, custom Laramie 3 blade stockman with pearl scales, Black Victorinox climber. My briefcase has an Olfa Silver, and a Leatherman Squirt.

Other knives are collected for their beauty and coolness first, but value is a consideration....it really boils down to what works best for YOU....but don't kid yourself....you ARE a collector.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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