Are we our own worst enemy?

[Les Robertson]

Hi Magnus,

Nice web site.

Why is that so many makers don't list prices?

You have several knives that look like one I had Keith Kilby make for me about 13 years ago. Of course I got the idea from another knife I saw somewhere. Good ideas always endure.

While the dollar is an obstacle for many overseas makers right now...it is an opportunity to buy knives from US Based sellers.

Probably the two things that hurt overseas makers in the US are:

1) They tend to make "Ethnic" style knives. Which will generally have a very small market for those knives in the US. This is especially true among some of the Scandinavian countries where it was explained to me that for many the sheath is more important than the blade that is in it. As the knives are worn as part of the "uniform" and as such the sheath is what most people see.

2) Because of the costs associated with traveling to the US for shows, their work is generally considered by many US buyers to be "over priced" and as such not competitive with makers in the US.

Obviously there are many foreign makers who do well in the US. So any or all of these obstacles can be overcome.

I see you had one knife where J. Nielson made the blade. So are already headed in the right direction by doing a collaboration with a US maker. Smart Move.

WWG

 

[Kohai999]

May I ask an honest question here:

If a "value consious" collector finds a knife that is very likely to increase in value, does he buy it regardless if he likes it or not?

If I have plans to flip it, then yes. If I don't like it, for my "collection", then, no.

And how would the opposite senario work, where the same collector finds a knife he really likes but is likely to decrease in value, would he buy it?

If it is a user(I buy very few of them, anymore, with the exception of kitchen knives, and slipjoints) yes, no problem. If it is to be kept pristine, not very likely.

I also wonder if a new knifemaker is ever likely to gain reputation enough to see his knives increase in value when all these "value consious" collectors never talk favorably about him just because he is new.
All "big name makers" have been new "no-names" at one point, whos knives where regarded as "non profitable" investments.
When did that change? Did collectors wait till the value started to rise? But then how could that happen if no one buys his knives?

In the past 4 years, I have rolled the dice on Chuck Gedraitis, Mike Lovett, Matt Roberts, Mike Ruth, Nick Wheeler and John Young.

This is before the press, and accolades in EVERY case. In Lovett's case, he was an unknown at that point....just making his presence known here. Louis Chow vouched for him, and that was good enough for me. Don Fogg recommended Nick Wheeler. This knives were ALL purchased at a time when the potential to lose money on them was high. In some cases, it still is. The knives are all in my permanent collection, and will be until I can no longer enjoy them.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Magnus Axelson]

Hi Magnus,

Nice web site.

Why is that so many makers don't list prices?

You have several knives that look like one I had Keith Kilby make for me about 13 years ago. Of course I got the idea from another knife I saw somewhere. Good ideas always endure.

While the dollar is an obstacle for many overseas makers right now...it is an opportunity to buy knives from US Based sellers.

Probably the two things that hurt overseas makers in the US are:

1) They tend to make "Ethnic" style knives. Which will generally have a very small market for those knives in the US. This is especially true among some of the Scandinavian countries where it was explained to me that for many the sheath is more important than the blade that is in it. As the knives are worn as part of the "uniform" and as such the sheath is what most people see.

2) Because of the costs associated with traveling to the US for shows, their work is generally considered by many US buyers to be "over priced" and as such not competitive with makers in the US.

Obviously there are many foreign makers who do well in the US. So any or all of these obstacles can be overcome.

I see you had one knife where J. Nielson made the blade. So are already headed in the right direction by doing a collaboration with a US maker. Smart Move.

WWG

Thank you very much WWG, very appreciated indeed!
I hope you saw my new website: http://magnusaxelsonknives.com/
My old one is very dated by now.
At first I never thought of my collaboration with J to be a smart move, I just like his blades very much. But now that you mention it I am glad, and I have more collaborations with him comming up.
I am also glad to have found out that good connections in USA is a very valuable

Thanks for a very informative answer STeven.

Regards
/Magnsu

 

[bluejaunte]

If I only collected knives to use, I'd only end up with a handful of kitchen knives, a boxcutter, X-acto craft knife, and a Swiss Army knife. Talk about no fun in collecting.

Are you married? If so, do you wear a wedding ring?

Did it come from a Crackerjack box?

Just because I use (most of) my knives doesn't mean I buy cheap disposable ones.

 

[RogerP]

Are you married? If so, do you wear a wedding ring?

Did it come from a Crackerjack box?

Just because I use (most of) my knives doesn't mean I buy cheap disposable ones.

I am so not getting the connection between a wedding ring (most people have but one) and a knife collection - users or not.

It's great that you use your knives. Enjoy them and be happy.

Roger

 

[Kohai999]

Are you married? If so, do you wear a wedding ring?

Did it come from a Crackerjack box?

Just because I use (most of) my knives doesn't mean I buy cheap disposable ones.

Roger did not mean to insult you, if that is how you take it.

We have been down this road countless times.....users mostly use, and collectors mostly collect...there is no right or wrong...ok?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Thomason]

We have been down this road countless times.....users mostly use, and collectors mostly collect...there is no right or wrong...ok?

I am a usellector . Some of mine are for using, some are for collecting. STeven is correct. There is no right or wrong.

 

[jdm61]

Hi Magnus,

Nice web site.

Why is that so many makers don't list prices?

You have several knives that look like one I had Keith Kilby make for me about 13 years ago. Of course I got the idea from another knife I saw somewhere. Good ideas always endure.

While the dollar is an obstacle for many overseas makers right now...it is an opportunity to buy knives from US Based sellers.

Probably the two things that hurt overseas makers in the US are:

1) They tend to make "Ethnic" style knives. Which will generally have a very small market for those knives in the US. This is especially true among some of the Scandinavian countries where it was explained to me that for many the sheath is more important than the blade that is in it. As the knives are worn as part of the "uniform" and as such the sheath is what most people see.

2) Because of the costs associated with traveling to the US for shows, their work is generally considered by many US buyers to be "over priced" and as such not competitive with makers in the US.

Obviously there are many foreign makers who do well in the US. So any or all of these obstacles can be overcome.

I see you had one knife where J. Nielson made the blade. So are already headed in the right direction by doing a collaboration with a US maker. Smart Move.

WWG

Good points about the foreign markets. I have noticed that there seems to be an increase in demand for good old American style knives in Europe and the weak dollar is helping a lot. Several guys from the BB forum have bought user knives from J. Neilson and others and they are relative bargains compared to what some of the better known makers are getting for their little Woodlore clones. Of the four knives that I have in the hands of the public, three of them have gone to buyers in the UK and I have a fourth one ready to go and three guys lined up who say they want a big bowie that I am working on. By contrast, the only way that I could consider some of the work that I see from the UK, etc is if the maker has a really nice piece that he isn't charging enough for by the standards of the local market.

 

[jdm61]

I am a usellector . Some of mine are for using, some are for collecting. STeven is correct. There is no right or wrong.

I have heard a couple of collectors say that they got into custom knives through the "user" route, but they don't really use many of their knives because they don't hunt, fish, camp, hike, etc that much anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if that was how a lot of serious custom collectors got started.

 

[Les Robertson]

The "user" method is exactly how I got into custom knives. For the first 3 years I bought nothing but users.

I went through a collector phase (won 41 display awards for my collection). I still have some of these knives.

I use a custom knife on a daily basis. The interesting thing is even after using it for the last couple years I could still sell it for more than I paid for it.

WWG

 

[Grapevine]

Are you married? If so, do you wear a wedding ring?

Did it come from a Crackerjack box?

Just because I use (most of) my knives doesn't mean I buy cheap disposable ones.

Where did I infer that if you use your knife that you must only buy cheap ones?

The point isn't whether our users are expensive or cheap, it's that if I only limit myself to knives I use then there are only a few types that I could buy (kitchen, boxcutter/craft, and SAK). I have no real need for hunting knives with my current lifestyle, nor choppers, nor bowies, definitely not fighters, nor fancy folders. Even my EDC factory pocket knives aren't really needed. So if I like any of those kinds that I have no need for, am I supposed to not collect them because I won't be putting them to use? And if I buy a big expensive bowie with immaculate fit and finish, am I supposed to go and frivolously chop some 2x4 a few times for no reason than just to say I used it, even if doing so even once would diminish their value by like at least 1/3? I mean it's fine if somebody wants to do that with their expensive collection. But me, I like to keep most of my expensive knives pristine and feel no shame that I don't use them.

Buying what you only use seems to me to be even more limiting and less fun than buying to keep things pristine. But I think all of the people whom you admonished to "Use your knives" already have quite a number of knives that they use. We have users in our collection, and we have safe queens in our collection.

 

[RogerP]

Buying what you only use seems to me to be even more limiting and less fun than buying to keep things pristine. But I think all of the people whom you admonished to "Use your knives" already have quite a number of knives that they use. We have users in our collection, and we have safe queens in our collection.

Exactly.

Roger

 

[jdm61]

Where did I infer that if you use your knife that you must only buy cheap ones?

The point isn't whether our users are expensive or cheap, it's that if I only limit myself to knives I use then there are only a few types that I could buy (kitchen, boxcutter/craft, and SAK). I have no real need for hunting knives with my current lifestyle, nor choppers, nor bowies, definitely not fighters, nor fancy folders. Even my EDC factory pocket knives aren't really needed. So if I like any of those kinds that I have no need for, am I supposed to not collect them because I won't be putting them to use? And if I buy a big expensive bowie with immaculate fit and finish, am I supposed to go and frivolously chop some 2x4 a few times for no reason than just to say I used it, even if doing so even once would diminish their value by like at least 1/3? I mean it's fine if somebody wants to do that with their expensive collection. But me, I like to keep most of my expensive knives pristine and feel no shame that I don't use them.

Buying what you only use seems to me to be even more limiting and less fun than buying to keep things pristine. But I think all of the people whom you admonished to "Use your knives" already have quite a number of knives that they use. We have users in our collection, and we have safe queens in our collection.

Collecting knives as "art" is indeed fun and rewarding, but I would love to know what percentage of hand made knives actually get used. I know that back in the early days when guys like Bo Randall, Rudy Ruana. William Scagel and Bill Moran were young knifemakers, almost all of their knives were users. I know that is definately not the case now with Randalls, but it would be interesting to know how many Randalls actually get used today and how many go into the collection of RKS guys. In my younger days when I hung out with a lot of guys in green, Randalls were one of the most desirable knives, but guys wanted them to hang on their web gear out in the field, not to take them out of a display case and polish them once a week.

 

[Kohai999]

Collecting knives as "art" is indeed fun and rewarding, but I would love to know what percentage of hand made knives actually get used.

Joe,

HTF does this relate to our being our own worst enemy, exactly? This thread has gone all over the damned map, with BS, and others pulling it like silly putty...which is expected....but, you......and this is what you come up with?:grumpy:

Start a new thread if it is so frikkin important. Damn!

STeven

 

[jdm61]

Joe,

HTF does this relate to our being our own worst enemy, exactly? This thread has gone all over the damned map, with BS, and others pulling it like silly putty...which is expected....but, you......and this is what you come up with?:grumpy:

Start a new thread if it is so frikkin important. Damn!

STeven

My first reaction was to try to decide whther to respond with "Whatever" or Blo......" But then cooler heads prevailed I guess my point is this.....have we become our own worst enemy by turning the custom knife business into just some kind of pretentious art-fag analogue, and if so, how long before we start seeing makers produce and hip collectors swoon over the cutlery equivalents of Robert Maplethorpe, Piss Christ, and Free Jazz?

 

[Chefget]

Whoo Boy... stand back...



-Michael

 

[Kohai999]

My first reaction was to try to decide whther to respond with "Whatever" or Blo......" But then cooler heads prevailed I guess my point is this.....have we become our own worst enemy by turning the custom knife business into just some kind of pretentious art-fag analogue, and if so, how long before we start seeing makers produce and hip collectors swoon over the cutlery equivalents of Robert Maplethorpe, Piss Christ, and Free Jazz?

1. Gee, thanks for the cooler heads.

2. Virgil England and Gay Rocha don't put edges on their work, and Gay's work specifically has vaginas worked into it(FWIW, some of Mapplethorpe's hetero themed work gave me a boner...I like it). This has been going on for years, and collectors do swoon over it, Virgil will be at the AKI next Saturday. Until this type of work becomes a "movement" or "school"....I think you are safe from this "pretentious art-fag analog". Just to be safe, you might want to assassinate John Lewis Jensen as a precaution, though.

http://www.jensenknives.com/

3. "We" haven't turned the business into art knife crap....it is an element that has been around for many, many years. If you think because a knife is an "art knife" that it is AUTOMATICALLY inferior as a performer, than you have not looked at enough art knives. Those Hudson's that we were talking about in another thread were glorious to look at, but they would have cut your head off in a single swipe AT WILL, as the edge geometry was superior. Some art knives were MADE to only be admired, but those are few and far between. Even Delanna and Van Barnett design for pocket carry and daily use.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[jdm61]

Eh.......those "art" knives are less Maplethorpe and more Frank Frazetta, and blades of that ilk have been around for a long time.........toolong, I would argue The thingthat concerns me is that the trend toward knives that are not used not because they don't perform, but because they are too valuable. This is different than hhistorical pieces. While there are some japanese swords and other that can fetch seven figures, most were desined to be used and probably were. It just seems to me that a custom knifemaker hasn't truly arrived until such time as people are afraid to use his knives for fear of degrading their investment value.

 

[Kohai999]

.....but because they are too valuable. This is different than hhistorical pieces. While there are some japanese swords and other that can fetch seven figures, most were desined to be used and probably were. It just seems to me that a custom knifemaker hasn't truly arrived until such time as people are afraid to use his knives for fear of degrading their investment value.

How about simply not used because they are irreplaceable?

Even for the collectors that have enough money that they could never spend it all in their lives covet things like the Walker Zipper because there are not very many made...money is not a factor with many of these "upper echelon" collectors....they buy what they like, $2,500 or $25,000, doesn't make a difference, because they don't need the money....at all....but rarity, for desired pieces from Schmidt, or Lake, or Walker or Loveless....well, that IS the defining aspect....and you can find that at the "lower" levels as well.

Danbo is the only guy I know that WILL use a Russ Andrews knife, he can't help himself...because there are not many around.....Nick Wheeler knives in the same sense...it is NOT the "value", "cost" or worth that is the primary factor for none use...it is the fact that Nick made about 10 or less knives last year.

Are we hurting ourselves because we have an awareness of rarity as well?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[jdm61]

How about simply not used because they are irreplaceable?

Even for the collectors that have enough money that they could never spend it all in their lives covet things like the Walker Zipper because there are not very many made...money is not a factor with many of these "upper echelon" collectors....they buy what they like, $2,500 or $25,000, doesn't make a difference, because they don't need the money....at all....but rarity, for desired pieces from Schmidt, or Lake, or Walker or Loveless....well, that IS the defining aspect....and you can find that at the "lower" levels as well.

Danbo is the only guy I know that WILL use a Russ Andrews knife, he can't help himself...because there are not many around.....Nick Wheeler knives in the same sense...it is NOT the "value", "cost" or worth that is the primary factor for none use...it is the fact that Nick made about 10 or less knives last year.

Are we hurting ourselves because we have an awareness of rarity as well?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

How rare is a Loveless realtively speaking? Things that I have read about Mr. Loveless indicate that he is almost as baffled as some of the rest of us are at the prices his knives sell for. He keeps on putting out very practical hunting knives and they sell for how much? These are no more "art" knives than the same type of knife made by a very talented unknown new maker. His name is what sells them because he came up with the knife that everyone wants to copy. Many uber expensive knives are "replaceable" Arguably, a Loveless Micarta drop point hunter almost falls into the category of being "fungible" One is pretty much as good as the next.
As for Nick, he is what? 27? If he keeps producing high quality work, he will be in a postion to try the full time thing again eventually. Will his prices go down if he makes 50 knives in 2011? I don't think that Nick has been around long enough for rarity to come into play. In his case, the collectors seem to be betting on the fact that he has tremendous skills and a great eye for design and should get even better with time, which really pisses me off as a hack bladesmith....it might be easier to stomach is he was old and ugly like me and many other wannabe knifemakers....lol
I guess that my paranoid Chicken Little concern is that any knifemaker who aspires to move beyond the hobbyist stage and be succesful is put in the position of catering to a limited group of collectors. The number of people making knives has increased greatly and the expectations of collectors has increased even more. What has not increased as rapidly is the number of collectors. Has the serious custom knife business pretty much relinquished the premium user market to the manufacturers of pricier factory and mid tech knives? Think about it......if Bob Loveless was 30 years old today, could he quit his job and make a living selling drop point stainless hunters with Micarta handle slabs at $250-300 a pop?