Are we ruining the secondary market?

Tai Goo said:
If this is true then, it is more the collectors fault when things don't go so well in the secondary market.

...which is basically my answer to the original question.
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No doubt Tai that it's the collector's fault as we control the secondary market pricing by what we ask for our knives, what we accept and what we pay. And the fact that many collectors accept and expect to lose money on them as below. Boy, that's some advice to give to a new collector. :thumbdn: :barf:

as far as custom knives being an investment, i'm sure people have made lots of money re-selling knives, however, i'm more inclined to approach collecting knives like this. i read some advice to a newcomer on another forum that went like this. "buy what you like, you won't lose too much money." that made sense to me.
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One way a particular maker's secondary market can be affected is for a larger collector to dump alot of the maker's knives on the market all at once. But the impact to pricing is only momentary in the scheme of things. There are several examples like this where a maker or collector can momentarily impact market conditions, but beyond economics, I cannot see where any segment of that market, in a free system, can manipulate it much.
 
Actually with the large number of knives for sale on the net, the dealers do play a huge roll in the secondary market.

So, how is the secondary market being ruined and who is ruining it?

I don't feel the secondary market is broken and I'm not pointing a finger at the dealers. Just thinking too much :D
 
I always wonder who are the big players in the secondary market. Are the same collectors comissioning pieces those that are scowering the secondary market? Surely some collectors value their input into the design process more than the simple fact of owning a knife by a particular maker. Is the primary custom knife market one of getting knives created that fit exact wants while the secondary knife market is more of a "looking for an investment knife at a low price?"

I guess the question is: other than a short list of top makers in the world, I would assume most knives lose some value in the secondary market unless that have been stored under glass. Given this fact, are the dropped prices more a sign of the loss of value of having input and a relationship with the maker? If not, why do the prices drop when knives are basically in as-delivered condition?
 
ptgdvc said:
Do we collectors have the ability to at least impact secondary market pricing if not control it by what we ask for or accept for our knives?

Can a collector buy what he/she likes yet still avoid losing upon sale of such?

Kevin,

We do everytime a sale takes place. Seriously, you seem to have an unnatural fixation on controling prices. A knife is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. The owner may establish any price/valuation he chooses, if he has no serious desire or need to sell it. He may however end up owning it forever.

On the second question, I certainly hope and think so! :thumbup:

P
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No Peter, not control prices but influence prices. And why would anyone not if it means more money in their packets? ;)

Above is the same "old school" saying "something is worth what someone will pay for it". Bull$hit. If a collector ask and gets $300 less for a knife that a similar one sold for the day before, does that make it worth $300 less? No it just means that the buy in this case got a good deal as the seller didn't know the true value.

If a collector doesn't market a knife properly, post poor photos and post it where there's not many buyers for that type of knife and as a result gets $300 less than the previous like knife marketed properly, does that mean the knife is only worth $300 or only worth $300 considering the way it was marketed?

The point IMO is in many other collectibles, the collector buys very much considering future value appreciation, however in custom knives that's often not even a consideration.
 
Don Hanson III said:
Actually with the large number of knives for sale on the net, the dealers do play a huge roll in the secondary market.

So, how is the secondary market being ruined and who is ruining it?

I don't feel the secondary market is broken and I'm not pointing a finger at the dealers. Just thinking too much :D
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I will just let out a huge "DUH" toward myself. Yeah, online dealers play a huge role. I seldom buy from an online dealer, so I will just blame my "economics" lesson, without including dealers, on a senior moment.
 
ptgdvc said:
Kevin,

We do everytime a sale takes place. Seriously, you seem to have an unnatural fixation on controling prices. A knife is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. The owner may establish any price/valuation he chooses, if he has no serious desire or need to sell it. He may however end up owning it forever.

On the second question, I certainly hope and think so! :thumbup:

P
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Exactly so.

Roger
 
David, the "big "players do search the secondary market, mainly because the most desirable knives are hard to come by, even from the maker, regardless of how much money you can spend. As well the "big" players are wise enough to ask for very little design input.most only ask for a theme or style of knife. After all, what makes the knife by a certain maker desirable is that makers ability to design and execute in a certain style. The best work is usually obtained when the maker is given reign. From experience I know that I will alway try to exeed the customers expectation.
Wolfgang
 
Don Hanson III said:
Actually with the large number of knives for sale on the net, the dealers do play a huge roll in the secondary market.

So, how is the secondary market being ruined and who is ruining it?

I don't feel the secondary market is broken and I'm not pointing a finger at the dealers. Just thinking too much :D
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Don, you may not see it or pay as much attention to it because you are selling knives on the primary market, not selling on the secondary market. ;) :)
 
This is a great thread and I agree with most that has been said. I collect quite a few things only because I like them. In the last 10 -15 years, I became much more involved in collecting things largely due to the internet and ebay.

While I don't consider the investment value as top priority, my philosophy has been to buy things I like when the price (in my opinion naturally) is such, that should I decide to sell the item, I could get at least what I paid for it or perhaps profit.

The internet also is a great resource to find the value of much of what I collect as well.

So far, I have not tried to sell most of the knives I have because I like having them. Additionally, I don't have many knives that most of the people on this forum would be interested in buying. I do realize that.

For me, reading the information presented here probably affects the secondary market to the extent that having learned what I have, I may not purchase knives that I may have previously....if that makes any sense:D

Peter
 
peterinct-

Knife collecting is a pre-occupation that can serve you EXTREMELY well when it comes to return on investment and at the same time, keep you loving collecting knives. It's just buying the right makers right. Sometimes it means passing on a knife you might otherwise want, because it is too pricey. And, hey, sometimes you buy it anyway. Without the love for the knife itself, why bother purchasing it (unless it's a steal, of course).
 
betzner said:
peterinct-

Knife collecting is a pre-occupation that can serve you EXTREMELY well when it comes to return on investment and at the same time, keep you loving collecting knives. It's just buying the right makers right. Sometimes it means passing on a knife you might otherwise want, because it is too pricey. And, hey, sometimes you buy it anyway. Without the love for the knife itself, why bother purchasing it (unless it's a steal, of course).
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Great point and well said. :thumbup:
 
betzner said:
I don't think anyone is ever to blame if the secondary market has it's lapses. It's very much an economic thing and has nothing to do with collectors or makers. In fact, I doubt makers or collectors could "harm" or "help" the secondary market if they tried to do so. It is economics-driven, at this point, with the number of collectors and makers out there growing all the time.
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The economy effects everything. However, I thought we were talking about influences other than the economy. Also, which economy are we referring to? The U.S.A?

One nice thing about doing business on the internet is that we are dealing with a "Global Economy"... somewhere someone always seems to have some money… :)
 
My wife and I have collected custom knives for about a year. We keep records that include purchase date, price, source, photos (ours at this point, not the great ones Coop does) and the event that drove the acquisition.

Last point is the heart and soul of collecting for us... fond memories attached to a prized knife... acquired at first show, acquired because of interaction after first show (yo Don, the Wicked Bowie will always be the king in my Gerstner chests), wife acquired her first custom, wife acquired her first Hanson and recognizes him as king :) , etc, etc, etc.


"Another thing, why is it that many collectors will pay more sometimes much more for a new knife from the maker (primary market) than a like older example (secondary market) that's in as new condition?"
Kevin, personal experience here; purchasing on the secondary market has been a business transaction (fun in hunting, negotiating, and scoring...hummmm sounds like my former life as a single guy) vs. the interaction with an artist/creator that is so cool and is a really genuine experience (Don Hanson and Wally Hayes immediately come to mind). As the advertising gurus say "priceless". Also Kevin, thank you for the advise you gave me on another forum last year on knife care. I've followed it and appreciate the wise counsel!!!

"I collect other items and have spent considerable time around others who collect, so since becoming interested in custom knives I have wondered about the above as custom knives seem to be fairly unique as compared to other similar collectibles."
I also collect watches, original comic art, and motorcycles. Learnings over time: keep accurate records, buy what you like, be patient, focus on the enduring vs. flavor of the month, and always go for quality.

Over a period of 12 years my comic art ROI on sold art is 76%, that has enabled me to obtain 21 pieces that are keepers. My 5 watches have appreciated 23% in 3 years. I'm applying the same principles to knives. Don't ask me about the bikes :( , but at least I get to ride them :D

Our collection has 4 Hansons, 4 Hayes, and examples from Pardue, Crawford, Peter Martin, Brodziak, Friedly, Langley, Graves, and others (including one "unknown" with mark BG). Our Hanson and Hayes are keepers, as are a few others for sentimental reasons. Others will be sold to upgrade our collection over tiime. We are lovin' it!
 
Kevin Jones said:
Roger, I mean Peter, ;) where in that question did I say I wanted to control prices?
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Last time that I checked, you were a Collector, you wrote the original sentence, so I think that including you in the "We Collectors" is not too much of a leap of reason. I may be wrong.

If you wish to exclude yourself that is fine, but I must ask who did you have in mind?

P
 
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